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  #76  
Old 03-11-2014, 08:16 PM
Missile Missile is offline
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I have read about misting water into the intake as an inexpensive but effective way of decarbonizing a DI engine. They say to mist a few quarts down the throttle body while the engine is running and feathering the throttle to keep it going. Has anyone tried this?
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  #77  
Old 03-11-2014, 09:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Missile View Post
I have read about misting water into the intake as an inexpensive but effective way of decarbonizing a DI engine. They say to mist a few quarts down the throttle body while the engine is running and feathering the throttle to keep it going. Has anyone tried this?
I hate to break it to you but that it beyond a safe idea. Water does not compress and causes metal to rust! Do you really want to put that through your intake, then your turbocharger and then your engine? I don't think that'll end well.

If you want to do something similar, use seafoam or BG44K (both are great de-carbonizers) through the vacuum intake line little by little works. Seafoam comes in a deep creep can which works equally well, just squirt a few sprays over the whole bottle with the car running. Don't feed it to much to bog down the engine! This is safe since these are petroleum based so they burn!

That method along with some brushes is how the 745 owners of the E65/66 are cleaning out their engines to get rid of check engine lights so they pass inspections for emissions!

Video on a WRX:


The white smoke is the seafoam soaking into the carbon and burning off. The sip-sip method as shown in the video feeds the seafoam through the air intake chambers so it sprays lightly onto the valves to help clean everything. Don't put too much in!!!!!
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  #78  
Old 03-12-2014, 09:44 AM
Missile Missile is offline
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The theory is that this is done on a fully warmed engine. The water is misted into the throttle body and the water turns to steam which will clean the intake valves and then evaporate. Water injection is used on engines to enhance performance, so introducing a mist of water I doubt would have a harmful effect. I agree it could have risks but I don't know what those might be. I have never done this, but it does seem to make sense. I would expect it would take a good little while to mist a quart of water into the intake, probably 15-30 minutes.

I have read that on engines that have a cracked cylinder head, those intake valves near the crack in the head were cleaned by the steaming coolant being sprayed over the valve.

I have tried Seafoam on my DI 3.6L Cadillac with apparent (I didn't do a before and after tear down) good results.

Just curious if others have heard of, or tried, the water misting method.
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  #79  
Old 03-12-2014, 10:20 AM
Nadir Point Nadir Point is offline
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Originally Posted by csmeance View Post
I hate to break it to you but that it beyond a safe idea. Water does not compress and causes metal to rust! Do you really want to put that through your intake, then your turbocharger and then your engine? I don't think that'll end well.
I hate to break it to you, but more colloquial terms for this concept are "water injection" and "water/methanol injection," and it's been employed on internal combustion engines of all types for nigh on 75 years now with great effect. It's cleaning and power enhancing properties are well documented. It provides a very reliable and cost-effective means of controlling carbon buildup, done right.

Rust? Really?
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  #80  
Old 03-12-2014, 03:16 PM
GhillieK9 GhillieK9 is offline
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Does anybody know if it is true that the replacement injector's have been built differently (better) in order to fix this issue for good? I read somewhere that those who have had these issues back in 2011 and 2012 have had to have these injector's replaced numerous times and the most recent ones have been changed so it only requires one fix. I'm still waiting for my 2011 550i xDrive M Sport to come in but I'm already dreading this issue
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  #81  
Old 03-12-2014, 06:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Missile View Post
The theory is that this is done on a fully warmed engine. The water is misted into the throttle body and the water turns to steam which will clean the intake valves and then evaporate. Water injection is used on engines to enhance performance, so introducing a mist of water I doubt would have a harmful effect. I agree it could have risks but I don't know what those might be. I have never done this, but it does seem to make sense. I would expect it would take a good little while to mist a quart of water into the intake, probably 15-30 minutes.

I have read that on engines that have a cracked cylinder head, those intake valves near the crack in the head were cleaned by the steaming coolant being sprayed over the valve.

I have tried Seafoam on my DI 3.6L Cadillac with apparent (I didn't do a before and after tear down) good results.

Just curious if others have heard of, or tried, the water misting method.
On a fully warmed engine the intact tract is not going to be hot enough for water to flash into steam like you are thinking, and as well if it does flash to steam your enigne is pulling so much air through that the steam won't even clean anything. Lexus uses a 6 cycle enigne to get the benefit of water but you won't get any results besides some broken engine parts with water.

If you want to use it go for it but in my opinion you are going to be in a world of hurt trying to steam clean your engine like that but each to their own.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Nadir Point View Post
I hate to break it to you, but more colloquial terms for this concept are "water injection" and "water/methanol injection," and it's been employed on internal combustion engines of all types for nigh on 75 years now with great effect. It's cleaning and power enhancing properties are well documented. It provides a very reliable and cost-effective means of controlling carbon buildup, done right.

Rust? Really?
and your second post:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nadir Point View Post
Sounds like you don't have an extended warranty. Bummer.

Thank you so much for your helpful post! I'm sure folks come to bimmerfest every day to have people tell them bummer and not offer them any help. Good Job being a contributing member here!

Yes, I know about water & methanol injection in HIGH POWER applications, where you are worrying about boost and detonation, not cleaning your engine. People who have to worry about getting to most from their engines use it. Not folks like 7-series owners who aren't trying to extract every possible HP from their engine.

Methanol is very corrosive and it's injection designed to cool the intake tract because of it's low heat density versus water. With F01/02 injectors, turbo's and coil packs being replaced this frequently I wouldn't be surprised if you hurt those with methanol usage in a 100% form.

People do run a mix (50:50) but not straight water or straight methanol unless they know what they are doing; and sadly I don't have enough time to explain it and build kits for everyone here. If you would like to do that by all means go ahead. I'm just trying to get helpful advice out so people can enjoy their car's for a bit longer rather than bashing people for using some scare tactics to stay away from something very dangerous.

Some folks run straight meth but it kills the rubber in your engine (rings and seals) and will have to rebuild if it's a DD. People use a controller and nozzle, not some redneck setup by dumping water into the engine. If you want to use water go ahead, it's not my car! If you want to call me out for taking a safer route then so be it.

If you want to talk to me about meth injection send me a PM since I've done it and installed it on past cars. I'd love to hear how you use it Nadir!

TL;DR:
Nadir thinks you can use water to clean your engine!
I say avoid water in your engine, use something like seafoam or a proper cleaner.
Methanol Injection is a great method for making more power by reducing intake temp ,it's not designed to clean your car!
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Last edited by csmeance; 03-12-2014 at 06:10 PM.
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  #82  
Old 03-12-2014, 11:15 PM
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wjjklj wjjklj is offline
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Originally Posted by csmeance View Post
The E65/66 have the same V8 and 6spd trans you guys have, but the new V8 is turbo'ed.

You are going to have carbon build up problems, you will have secondary air problems, you will have your valve stem seals needing replacement, the trans will barely go over 70K in my opinion, and you have a host of other issues I haven't mentioned. The reason? BMW took an engine that THEY DESIGNED TO LAST 100k and put 2 turbo's on it. They didn't lower the oil change intervals, they didn't do squat.

If you want your F01/02 to last a long time do this:

1. Oil changes every 5K miles, your cars have turbos. Oil cakes up on turbos and can misbalance them leading them to shatter inside your engine thus ruining your engine. Plus you will kill the valve stem seals too.

2. Use good fuel, 91+ only. Use a fuel system cleaner every 5 tanks of gas. This will help keep everything clean to an extent. I recommend Techron or Redline SI-1, best bang for the buck.

3. Use Seafoam or BG44K through some Vac. lines on the engine every 10-15K miles. You guys will have carbon buildup thanks to all the EPA systems on the car to ensure low emmissions. Direct Injection is a contributor to the problem but BMW's crappy design makes it more apparent.

4. Push your car hard every so often, believe it or not pushing your car to redline at least once a month is recommended. It used to be called an Italian tune-up since it allows the engine to blow a lot of the caked up carbon and crud out.

5. Change the trans fluid every 50K, minimum. Use Redline D4/racing Mix or use Castrol Multi-Import or use the BMW stuff, either way it's needed. (If indeed it's the exact same trans, it'll need a new bridge seal and sleeve seal too; get those done along with a new pan (pans are plastic and the filter is built in)

6. Look into a lower temp thermostat. E65/66's run at 105C which kills seals esp in the cooling system. After using a 90C thermostat there have been a ton of improvements.
CS speaks the truth. I just had all the injectors replaced, carbon cleaning on intake, and new plugs . My Service Advisor told me to do exactly all the things CS said.
C


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  #83  
Old 03-13-2014, 12:03 PM
Nadir Point Nadir Point is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by csmeance View Post
On a fully warmed engine the intact tract is not going to be hot enough for water to flash into steam like you are thinking, and as well if it does flash to steam your enigne is pulling so much air through that the steam won't even clean anything.
So you don't think the intake tract would see any benefit from W/M? And that is the only portion of the A/F/E path that may benefit from it's cleaning properties?
Quote:
Originally Posted by csmeance View Post
and your second post:
Thanks for taking the time research all my many, voluminous posts on this forum! Now you know everything about me, just like you seem to know everything about W/M injections - congrats!
Quote:
Originally Posted by csmeance View Post
Yes, I know about water & methanol injection in HIGH POWER applications, where you are worrying about boost and detonation, not cleaning your engine.
Apparently that makes you knowledgeable on somewhere around 2% of all the installed and running W/M systems on the roads in this country today. Congrats again!
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Originally Posted by csmeance View Post
People do run a mix (50:50) but not straight water..
Actually quite a lot if not of the majority of diesels use straight water for EGT control.
Quote:
Originally Posted by csmeance View Post
I'm just trying to get helpful advice out so people can enjoy their car's for a bit longer rather than bashing people for using some scare tactics to stay away from something very dangerous.
Actually you have clearly demonstrated your lack of knowledge on the subject. So, which is it: Helpful advice, or scare tactics? Because you just warned us to stay away from "something very dangerous."
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Originally Posted by csmeance View Post
Some folks run straight meth but it kills the rubber in your engine (rings and seals) and will have to rebuild if it's a DD.
Another falsehood. Most modern automotive soft parts use EPDM and other contemporary rubber formulations designed specifically to run in fuel systems containing alcohol and other corrosive chemicals. Ever heard of E10?
Quote:
Originally Posted by csmeance View Post
People use a controller and nozzle, not some redneck setup by dumping water into the engine. If you want to use water go ahead, it's not my car! If you want to call me out for taking a safer route then so be it.
You brought up the redneck setup idea. Sounds like you may have some experience there. Consider yourself "called out."
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If you want to talk to me about meth injection send me a PM since I've done it and installed it on past cars.
Don't hold your breath.
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  #84  
Old 03-13-2014, 01:17 PM
Missile Missile is offline
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Guys, let's keep it civil.

I'm the one that brought up the water injection but I certainly didn't want to set off a firestorm. The method I had heard about isn't set up with a nozzle and controller, just a spray bottle I guess (and maybe that is a "redneck" way of injecting water into the engine). There appear to be differences in opinion as to whether it would work or not to clean the intake manifold and intake valves. That's good enough for me.
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  #85  
Old 03-13-2014, 04:22 PM
FML JK FML JK is offline
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so im getting my injectors replaced right now on my 2012. lol here we go!
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  #86  
Old 03-13-2014, 08:04 PM
Missile Missile is offline
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Good luck. I hope it works out for you. I am running BG44K through on a regular basis (not every 5 tanks, but every 6 months). I also plan on using Seafoam to hopefully stave off any issues.
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  #87  
Old 03-14-2014, 01:07 AM
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csmeance csmeance is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nadir Point View Post
So you don't think the intake tract would see any benefit from W/M? And that is the only portion of the A/F/E path that may benefit from it's cleaning properties?

Thanks for taking the time research all my many, voluminous posts on this forum! Now you know everything about me, just like you seem to know everything about W/M injections - congrats!

Apparently that makes you knowledgeable on somewhere around 2% of all the installed and running W/M systems on the roads in this country today. Congrats again!

Actually quite a lot if not of the majority of diesels use straight water for EGT control.

Actually you have clearly demonstrated your lack of knowledge on the subject. So, which is it: Helpful advice, or scare tactics? Because you just warned us to stay away from "something very dangerous."

Another falsehood. Most modern automotive soft parts use EPDM and other contemporary rubber formulations designed specifically to run in fuel systems containing alcohol and other corrosive chemicals. Ever heard of E10?

You brought up the redneck setup idea. Sounds like you may have some experience there. Consider yourself "called out."

Don't hold your breath.
The time it took for you to read my post and reply makes me happy enough since you know how much of a contributor you are here. As you have shown off your BIG D I C K about water/meth injection I'm sure you can help folks out here.

First off you talk about your knowledge of diesel and I will admit I do not know much about water/meth in diesel and I'm not going to pretend to. To answer your questions/statements:

1. I def. think that there would be a benefit from a water/meth injection kit on the F01/02 for cooler temperatures for less detonation. Cleaning would be a slight benefit but once you ramp up the meth ratio I'd bet that the rings give out 20K miles later on these cars. As it is they are going through a quart of oil every 3-4K miles.

2. I looked at the 2nd post in this thread, but if you like my memory skills then I'll take it as a complement. Why would I waste time researching a clearly hateful person when I can help more folks here!

3. Thank you for the wonderful statistic, mind if you show me the source? Pulling it out of your A S S doesn't count but then again, the internet police isn't coming after you!

4. Thanks for that bit of info, like I said I'm more into the E85 and E10 sector of tuning, not diesel.

5. I offer public, helpful advice. Scare tactics are necessary sometimes because stupid people exist. Why do you think microwaves come with a warning not to stick a child/infant in it? If you have such expertise on the subject you should share rather than screw over your fellow owners, when in your opinion I'm clearly explaining it wrong.

6. Why thanks captain obvious we are living in 2014 where the job of "Chemical Engineer" exists. Talk to me after you've seen multiple cars with failed rubber components.

7. Redneck idea implying some dumb person using the video I posted and dumping water into their intakes. I'm not going to post some information that someone could misinterpret and screw up. If you want to take that chance so be it. But I've had fun conversing with you and showing the bimmerfest community how much of an asset you are and as well, how much of a waste of carbon and humanity you are.

8. I kindly ask that you leave folks in the 7 series section alone so we don't have to put up with nonsense and neither do the mods.
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  #88  
Old 03-14-2014, 06:48 AM
Nadir Point Nadir Point is offline
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As you have shown off your BIG D I C K about water/meth injection I'm sure you can help folks out here.
I'd rather have a BIG DICK than just being one, personally.
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Originally Posted by csmeance View Post
I offer public, helpful advice. Scare tactics are necessary sometimes because stupid people exist.
Condescend much? Yeah I do agree they are not hard to find on web forums like this. Consider yourself found.

Last edited by Nadir Point; 03-14-2014 at 06:50 AM.
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  #89  
Old 03-14-2014, 07:28 AM
kpumroy kpumroy is offline
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Rants aside, I do not recall any posts confirming that the N63 engine has a carbon build up problem. I know it has been thrown out there as a "possible" cause of rough running but I don't think any of those have been confirmed. In any case the only definitive cure that I have read about is walnut shell blasting. Also the engine has to be removed from the car to be able to get to the intake manifold so its not an easy thing to do. Water might work to loosen some carbon in the combustion chamber but not in the intake or intake valves. Fuel additives won't work either because the intake doesn't see any fuel. The culprit seems to be the crankcase ventilation design more so than direct fuel injection. The larger problem for me is why have the vehicle manufacturers insisted on pushing engine technology that hasn't quite been worked out yet? To meet emission and fuel consumption standards, customers be damned. It reminds me of the early days of emission controls that made the cars run like crap. Retarded ignition timing, exhaust gas recirculation, too lean carbs etc. At least I knew how to work around those systems to get the car running "right". Back then, as in below car, crankcase ventilation was a paper filter cap pushed into the valve cover. How is that for an old guy's rant?
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Old 03-14-2014, 07:38 AM
Nadir Point Nadir Point is offline
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The larger problem for me is why have the vehicle manufacturers insisted on pushing engine technology that hasn't quite been worked out yet?
I believe the answer to that revolves around the idea that car manufacturers are banking (literally) on the fact that a majority of customers are going to be lessees and owners who upgrade every 2 or three years and don't have time to see these type problems manifest. By then the cars are on the used market. CPO-type and other 3rd party warranties are such a small piece of the puzzle they couldn't care less. If they can keep the EPA satisfied that way with not-ready-for-prime-time technology it is just more money on the profit side of their balance sheet.

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  #91  
Old 05-23-2014, 10:51 AM
Bosswojo1k Bosswojo1k is offline
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So can these threads be merged. After reading some threads is it safe to say this all boils down to a updated fuel injector replacement?
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  #92  
Old 11-24-2015, 09:06 PM
cbxtra6 cbxtra6 is offline
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Originally Posted by TL2E90 View Post
In all fairness I believe that car manufacturers should pick up the tab for every single ordeal like this one. We as customers have no responsibility to pay for a faulty engine design and this applies for all DI engine.
Designers did not seem to care in this case what will happen to a DI engine in a long run and how to prevent such catastrophic events from breaking our banks.
I agree completely. I bought my 2011 335D new , owned several Bimmers over the years, this was my first Diesel though. I loved the car until this summer , until I experienced the same carbon issues as many described with only 52 K miles. My car was immobilized for most of July, a few days after I picked it up, the SES light came back on , and my dealer said the other Injectors ramp had to be replaced... Since I was very vocal about the whole thing, my dealer went to battle for me with BMWNA and the whole thing did not cost me much, even though my warranty expired in December 2014. So unlike many on this forum who had to shell out a lot of cash, I should consider myself lucky.

But the problem is that we did pay a premium for the Diesel engine , and whether you plan on keeping the car long or sell it fast, you are screwed ! the next de-carb job is down the road and may cost a bundle, only a matter of time, and selling it now will mean taking a huge loss because potential buyers can find out easily about the issues pertaining to this engine... same for the X5 D owners.
I had no idea about this until it happened to me and then, I did a web search to find out the extent of the problem, public knowledge... But my dealer never mentioned a word about this of course, otherwise I would have bought a different model.

I do believe this is a partial "lemon" car and BMW missed the mark. When my dealer told me that it was the poor quality of diesel fuel in the US compared to Europe which was clogging the engine and heavier traffic, it was a poor excuse. BMW should have researched better before releasing their diesel engine, and offered a fix or solution in the form of a recall for all owners who should not have to go through this inconvenience and loss.

I also own a MB ML350 Bluetec, and after discussing my 335D problems with the service mgr, I asked him if Benz Bluetec engines were prone to the same issues, he said absolutely not ! Different design I guess...

What is the likelihood of a Class action against BMW to force them facing their responsability and indemnify owners ?
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  #93  
Old 12-02-2015, 09:55 PM
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Carbon is building up because a lot of oil is being burned by the N63. On the 2002-2008 V8's, the valve stem seals would go bad causing oil to be burned. This burning oil plugged up the secondary air system causing a ton of error codes and poor performance. Only way to fix it is to litterally break the carbon apart with a variety of brushes and tools.

The same issues are happening with the 2009-2015 7-series engine. Oil is making it past the rings and seals and is being burnt as reported by quite a few members here. That oil has to go somewhere and it's burning and coating the engine insides.

This isn't a design fault persay, but a question of how long a specific part should last. BMW is notorious for using ****ty parts like plastic cooling system components that crack. I would imagine BMW has a design life of 50K miles by the way my 760 acted and by the way other BMW's need repairs.

Also remember, these are VERY high performance cars. All cars like these have some sort of quirk. You can't have your cake and eat it too.
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  #94  
Old 12-02-2015, 10:21 PM
dbs600 dbs600 is offline
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Originally Posted by csmeance View Post
Carbon is building up because a lot of oil is being burned by the N63. On the 2002-2008 V8's, the valve stem seals would go bad causing oil to be burned. This burning oil plugged up the secondary air system causing a ton of error codes and poor performance. Only way to fix it is to litterally break the carbon apart with a variety of brushes and tools.

The same issues are happening with the 2009-2015 7-series engine. Oil is making it past the rings and seals and is being burnt as reported by quite a few members here. That oil has to go somewhere and it's burning and coating the engine insides.

This isn't a design fault persay, but a question of how long a specific part should last. BMW is notorious for using ****ty parts like plastic cooling system components that crack. I would imagine BMW has a design life of 50K miles by the way my 760 acted and by the way other BMW's need repairs.

Also remember, these are VERY high performance cars. All cars like these have some sort of quirk. You can't have your cake and eat it too.
50k mile drivetrain design life is completely unacceptable.

High performance or not, these are not Ferraris or Lamborghinis.

Very disappointing.

Last edited by dbs600; 12-02-2015 at 10:23 PM.
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