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The sixth generation BMW 3 Series Sedan F30/F31/F34 and the first first generation 4 Series Coupe F32/F33/F36. Get the latest 3 and 4 series pricing from our ordering and pricing guide sticky thread.

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  #51  
Old 04-30-2018, 11:44 AM
John MS John MS is offline
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Yes, just keep running back to the dealer every 3 years. They will welcome you and have an arm around your shoulder and a hand in your wallet extracting lots of cash. Yup.. just keep paying the early years depreciation over and over. Makes no financial sense but...it's fun to flip cars.
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  #52  
Old 04-30-2018, 11:58 AM
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Well it depends on the negotiated price, MF, residual value, APR what what you are trying to accomplish with the car. There is no definitive answer that it is "always" the smart choice to buy and hold for a decade. I can understand if you spend all your money without investment opportunities in life, or relatively lower income, or just don't care about time behind a wheel in general.

Perhaps you bought a Brioni suit 5 years ago for $5000, would you wear it in an interview that potentially doubles your salary from $150K to $300K, commutes 5 miles on the PCH with an ocean view corner office? What if you had put on 40 pounds and now it doesn't quite fit? Do you risk ripping your pants and potentially lose a great gig? Or....................................perhaps you can just go buy a Brooks Brothers $2000 suit and get it tailored for $150, and another 5 years after, and another 5 years after........or.....maybe even OMG, rent one for $200.
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  #53  
Old 04-30-2018, 02:19 PM
John MS John MS is offline
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You are paying a lot more long term for the privilege of flipping every 3 years.
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  #54  
Old 04-30-2018, 02:32 PM
namelessman namelessman is offline
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You are paying a lot more long term for the privilege of flipping every 3 years.
3-year lease flips have not been too bad since the financial crisis due to ZIRP and BMWFS/BMWNA lease subsidies(side effects of free money).

Since the beginning of the ZIRP unwind, lease subsidies have been stripped considerably.

Heading forward the 3-year lease flips are being normalized back to pre-crisis days, and serial lessees will be reconditioned to feel the pain that normally comes with leases.
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  #55  
Old 04-30-2018, 03:05 PM
Autoputzer Autoputzer is offline
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Those Chevy SSR's were a niche market car, sort of a cross between a Camaro and a pick-up truck: tire shredding torque and power, and able to carry golf clubs and ice chests. They're no longer in production, but have earned a following.

Pick-up trucks, in general, hold their value better than passenger cars. I bought a ~$21k MSRP 2000 Silverado for $17.5k with my GM discount. After six years and 74k miles, I sold it for $8.5k.

Here's my actual cost (first four years), and projected cost (next four years) for my 2014 535i. Even budgeting $2500/year for maintenance and repairs for the second four years, I'll save about $25k over what I would have spent replacing it after four years.
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  #56  
Old 04-30-2018, 04:19 PM
duberalles duberalles is offline
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Well it depends on the negotiated price, MF, residual value, APR what what you are trying to accomplish with the car. There is no definitive answer that it is "always" the smart choice to buy and hold for a decade. I can understand if you spend all your money without investment opportunities in life, or relatively lower income, or just don't care about time behind a wheel in general.

Perhaps you bought a Brioni suit 5 years ago for $5000, would you wear it in an interview that potentially doubles your salary from $150K to $300K, commutes 5 miles on the PCH with an ocean view corner office? What if you had put on 40 pounds and now it doesn't quite fit? Do you risk ripping your pants and potentially lose a great gig? Or....................................perhaps you can just go buy a Brooks Brothers $2000 suit and get it tailored for $150, and another 5 years after, and another 5 years after........or.....maybe even OMG, rent one for $200.

...you are in the wrong line of business if you need a 5 grand suit to secure a 300 grand a year job....maybe I'm lucky living in Seattle when you can cross people pulling half mil a year wearing Dr. Scholls...and no, I'm not only talking the tech world......

Buying a new car (especially a premium one) and flipping it every 2-3 years is financially the most stupid thing to do...and I know because I'm been doing exactly that and I have serious doubt about keep going that way......it really pisses me off throwing money down the drain...

Last edited by duberalles; 04-30-2018 at 04:20 PM.
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  #57  
Old 04-30-2018, 05:07 PM
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Car value depreciation hits consumers hard when they churn cars every few years. The smart ones buy, maintain and hold well past the decade mark.
I agree; this year my RSX will be 16, our ML350 will be 12 and the Bimmer will be 6. The plan is no new car until mid 2021 when college payments ease up.
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  #58  
Old 04-30-2018, 05:56 PM
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Originally Posted by openwheelracing View Post
Well it depends on the negotiated price, MF, residual value, APR what what you are trying to accomplish with the car. There is no definitive answer that it is "always" the smart choice to buy and hold for a decade. I can understand if you spend all your money without investment opportunities in life, or relatively lower income, or just don't care about time behind a wheel in general.
High incomes and great investment opportunities are the scenarios that paying cash makes the most sense, as the foregone opportunity costs can be replenished quickly.

Obviously if demands for cash to fund other priorities are high(e.g. college funds, emergency funds, retirement funds, 25% CC interest rates, non top-tier mortgage rate), then do take care of those first. And options in those scenarios including buying a beater, or lease a non-premium car for less than $200/month.

Last edited by namelessman; 04-30-2018 at 06:00 PM.
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  #59  
Old 04-30-2018, 06:39 PM
Cap'n Hook Cap'n Hook is offline
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There is exactly zero scenarios where leasing a new car EVERY three years is cheaper than financing a new/CPO car and driving it for 3-9 years, equivalent the time frame of 1-3 leases. And if you're savvy and disciplined and finance with a credit union for 1.9% and invest the cash instead of giving it away to a dealer, and invest even modest, you're likely to negate the finance charges of the loan with investment returns greater than 6% on your cash.

And driving a 3-9 yo car has exactly zero to do with a $300k/yr job, unless you're interview is in the parking lot.
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  #60  
Old 04-30-2018, 06:50 PM
Autoputzer Autoputzer is offline
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I know three deca-millionaires (net worth over $10M, but less than $99.999M). They all keep their personal vehicles a long time.

In contrast my knucklehead friend is over 60 years old, makes about $100k/year, is a serial leaser, and his net worth is probably about $250k and that's mostly his home equity. God takes care of idiots, though. He's currently leasing a M240i, and he drives about 4k miles/year. His pension check will be about 85% of what his paycheck is. But, he has to give 25% of it to one of his ex-wives for several years once he retires. He was bitching and moaning about not having enough money to live on in those first years of retirement. Since he started the conversation, I suggested buying his M235i when the lease was up. He was sort of pissed when I suggested this. "I don't want to see any spreadsheets. Leasing works for me." Somehow, he decided that the best way to prepare for those lean years of retirement and alimony was to... wait for it... lease another BMW. The moral of this story is: You should never confuse a BMW salesman for a financial advisor.

A lot of hand-to-mouth serial leasers will tell you it's cheaper to lease because of "opportunity costs." They're using pretzel logic to rationalize their addiction to car flipping.

I financed $50k of the $55k cost of our X3 for 60 months at 1.9%. My equity (value - loan balance) starts off at around $5k and goes down to about $1.4k by the end of the first year, and then will gradually rise to about $17k by the time the loan is paid off in five years. So, my opportunity costs are trivial.

Last edited by Autoputzer; 04-30-2018 at 07:00 PM.
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  #61  
Old 04-30-2018, 09:44 PM
namelessman namelessman is offline
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Originally Posted by Cap'n Hook View Post
And if you're savvy and disciplined and finance with a credit union for 1.9% and invest the cash instead of giving it away to a dealer, and invest even modest, you're likely to negate the finance charges of the loan with investment returns greater than 6% on your cash.
Most BMW lessees are very happy with 3+% of lease/finance rate from BMWFS. Many miss the point that it is really 6% pretax .... not that cheap.

And back in dotcom days BMWFS charged 8%, or 16% pretax!!!

The best rate on 3-year new car traditional finance right now is 1%, which is not far from free cash.
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  #62  
Old 04-30-2018, 09:48 PM
namelessman namelessman is offline
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The moral of this story is: You should never confuse a BMW salesman for a financial advisor.
My local CA is pretty cool, and he often gives great discount to coworkers and family and friends. It takes conviction and determination to ignore those appealing 20% off MSRP deals.

But again, mine is a free car (through holding the previous bimmer for 12 years and 100k miles) so my motivation is the extra two 2 free cars at the end of 12 years of F30 ownership.
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  #63  
Old 05-01-2018, 05:11 AM
Autoputzer Autoputzer is offline
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Originally Posted by Cap'n Hook View Post
There is exactly zero scenarios where leasing a new car EVERY three years is cheaper than financing a new/CPO car and driving it for 3-9 years, equivalent the time frame of 1-3 leases. And if you're savvy and disciplined and finance with a credit union for 1.9% and invest the cash instead of giving it away to a dealer, and invest even modest, you're likely to negate the finance charges of the loan with investment returns greater than 6% on your cash.

And driving a 3-9 yo car has exactly zero to do with a $300k/yr job, unless you're interview is in the parking lot.
One of my deca-millionaire friends just bought his wife a used Lexus RX-something-or-other. She scraped up her old one, at least ten years old, effectively totaling it. He normally buys cars new, but she didn't like the looks of the new Lexus's. So, they hunted around for a good used one.

My other deca-millionaire friend also drives a used car, but it's a used V12 Ferrari 550M. He probably paid about $100k for it. His wife drives one of those little Cadillac sedans with a Corvette engine crammed in it. When they're going out somewhere together, she asks "Which car are we taking?"

If he says "Let's take the slow car," that means they're taking the Ferrari.

Frau Putzer has befriended two retired and semi-retired interior decorators who lived and worked in the South Beach and Palm Beach "scene." They said they had to drive an expensive car to establish credibility with their wealthy clients. They typically leased an Aston-Martin or Bentley. One of them currently drives a small Hyundai. The semi-retired one just died, and the retired one is that, not working. I sure hope they saved up for the surviving, retired, partner's retirement. Actually, I don't care one way or the other. He's not moving in with us if he looses their beachfront condo.

Last edited by Autoputzer; 05-01-2018 at 05:18 AM.
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  #64  
Old 05-01-2018, 05:59 AM
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CALWATERBOY TRE CALWATERBOY TRE is offline
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The dumbest ones always think they are the smartest.

Buying a depreciating asset with cash and drive it for 10 years during time when safety features are drastic changing and interest rate at historic low, is a
dumb idea disguised in a 1955 financial best practice pamphlet. Sometime, you have to tell your dad that his "value" no longer applies, even if he is the person you admire the more in the World.

The world does turn.....autonomy expected t'hit bricks, 18 months. Anticipate huge migration and totally flooded market for human driven rides within few years.

Supply; demand. You know the drill --> expect old BMWs will be donated.

.

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  #65  
Old 05-01-2018, 09:27 AM
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I should've known people are forever going to insist on absolutes regarding buying/leasing/old/new.

You enjoy your 10 year old socks, worn out shoes and 10 year old Toyota Yaris. I am going to Stuttgart next week to pick up a brand new IIHS top safety pick+ for vacation. Air New Zealand Premium Economy and Holiday Farm on points. Celebrating another $37K in debt woohooo. Ciao!
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  #66  
Old 05-01-2018, 09:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Autoputzer View Post
One of my deca-millionaire friends just bought his wife a used Lexus RX-something-or-other. She scraped up her old one, at least ten years old, effectively totaling it. He normally buys cars new, but she didn't like the looks of the new Lexus's. So, they hunted around for a good used one.

My other deca-millionaire friend also drives a used car, but it's a used V12 Ferrari 550M. He probably paid about $100k for it. His wife drives one of those little Cadillac sedans with a Corvette engine crammed in it. When they're going out somewhere together, she asks "Which car are we taking?"

If he says "Let's take the slow car," that means they're taking the Ferrari.

Frau Putzer befriended two retired and semi-retired interior decorators who lived and worked in the South Beach and Palm Beach "scene." They said they had to drive an expensive car to establish credibility with their wealthy clients. They typically leased an Aston-Martin or Bentley. One of them currently drives a small Hyundai. The semi-retired one just died last week, and the retired one is that, not working. I sure hope they saved up for the surviving, retired, partner's retirement. Actually, I don't care one way or the other. He's not moving in with us if he looses their beachfront condo.
Meanwhile, some billionaire rapper are buying gold chains and 15 cars with spinners. Your point is? If you must nickel and dime your way to become a millionaire, by all means have at it. However, being cheap does not equate to being financially superior. You don't know the situations that differs from you and million others. There are no absolutes.
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Old 05-01-2018, 09:40 AM
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You should never confuse a BMW salesman for a financial advisor.
No $h!^. Never trust a salesman or a financial advisor, let along pretenders on the internet.
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Old 05-01-2018, 09:51 AM
namelessman namelessman is offline
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Originally Posted by openwheelracing View Post
I should've known people are forever going to insist on absolutes regarding buying/leasing/old/new.

You enjoy your 10 year old socks, worn out shoes and 10 year old Toyota Yaris. I am going to Stuttgart next week to pick up a brand new IIHS top safety pick+ for vacation. Air New Zealand Premium Economy and Holiday Farm on points. Celebrating another $37K in debt woohooo. Ciao!
The beauty of a 10-year bimmer(or MB) is that, if taken care of, the bimmer(or MB) still looks relevant and cool. The same is not true of Audi, which usually looks dorky by 10-year mark.
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  #69  
Old 05-01-2018, 09:55 AM
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Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder right? I've never owned an Audi and still don't have the desire to. To each their own. I agree that some Bimmers can be very classy like the E39 and E30 which age very well.
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Old 05-01-2018, 10:12 AM
namelessman namelessman is offline
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As far as discussions of strategies go, lease/finance(or even purchases with accelerated depreciation?) usually makes sense with business write-offs.

For personal finance, the considerations can be the effective interest % of funding the purchase.

E.g. with 25% CC loans hanging around, it makes no sense to utilize cash to buy a car versus pay down the CC balance.'

I.e. it makes no sense to pay 25%(after tax) for the car!

Or, if one is absolutely debt free, then cash purchase to sidestep the 1% CU finance, or the 3+% lease rate from BMWFS, can be an option.

Another subtle point is, finance/lease are committed/leveraged cash flow, while income and investment gain are expected cash flow.

The lesson learnt during financial crises(yes, multiple of them), the committed/leveraged cash flow and positions usually do not end well, so buyers beware.
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Old 05-01-2018, 10:20 AM
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Air New Zealand Premium Economy and Holiday Farm on points
Collecting points have become life-time passion for some friends, but it appears to be too much work for us other than business travels.

The sapphire reserve did catch our attention with $2500 freebies paid by chase so far(and another $750 coming), versus $900 of annual fees, but it is unlikely it will be renewed for a third year.
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  #72  
Old 05-01-2018, 10:55 AM
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Bought my 2011 Honda Accord Coupe EX-L V6 back in late summer 2010 for $28,000, just sold it for $12,000 with 56,900 on the odometer. So not counting maintenance and fuel, it cost about $167 a month to drive that car for the nearly eight years I owned it.

I don't expect my new 440i Coupe to come anywhere close to that level of depreciation, but I knew that when I signed the paperwork.
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  #73  
Old 05-01-2018, 12:21 PM
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Bought my 2011 Honda Accord Coupe EX-L V6 back in late summer 2010 for $28,000, just sold it for $12,000 with 56,900 on the odometer. So not counting maintenance and fuel, it cost about $167 a month to drive that car for the nearly eight years I owned it.

I don't expect my new 440i Coupe to come anywhere close to that level of depreciation, but I knew that when I signed the paperwork.
Wow that Accord can probably go another 100k miles for the next 10 years, and will cost extra $10k max.

Any review of Accord Coupe versus 440i Coupe?
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  #74  
Old 05-01-2018, 12:34 PM
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Any review of Accord Coupe versus 440i Coupe?
Yeah, I thought my Accord V6 was a pretty sporty car...

...until I got my hands on a 440i.

In all seriousness, the Honda was great. 8 years and 56K miles and the only time it saw the service department was for regular maintenance and the Takata airbag recall replacement. Same as the 2003 Accord Coupe V6 I owned before it. So 16 years of flawless car ownership over two Hondas. BMW has a lot to live up to, I'm hoping I have the same good luck.
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Old 05-01-2018, 12:47 PM
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Yeah, I thought my Accord V6 was a pretty sporty car...

...until I got my hands on a 440i.

In all seriousness, the Honda was great. 8 years and 56K miles and the only time it saw the service department was for regular maintenance and the Takata airbag recall replacement. Same as the 2003 Accord Coupe V6 I owned before it. So 16 years of flawless car ownership over two Hondas. BMW has a lot to live up to, I'm hoping I have the same good luck.
Yes Honda tends to be more reliable than BMW, but Honda seems to slip a bit lately due to all the fancy electronics on top-trim units. Similar comment can apply to BMW too.

So maybe the prudent route for long-term ownership is to minimize gadgets and pick basics like leather, moonroof, Xenon/LED. Wait, that is how my bimmers are optioned!

The I6 twinturbo B58 is supposed to be bullet proof. The BMW engineers are confident enough on B58(and B46 too) to put timing chain and such in the back next to the firewall, just like N47. N47 happened to have lots of issue with TC, and engine-out/open heart surgery is needed if problems arise ....

My old E39 went for 12 years and 100k miles before being sold, and out-of-warranty repair + maintenance + tires at dealers was $4000 up to 80k miles. The last 20k miles saw $3k preventive maintenance and wear and tear(brakes on both axles, window regulators, control arm bushings, thermostat, VCG, OFHG, etc, etc).

The current F30 I4 turbo N26 does come with factory emission warranty for 15 years and 150000 miles, and that warranty covers lots of expensive parts, e.g. fuel system, radiator, cat, mechatronics, turbo system, misc. sensors, VCG, vanos, ignition coils, etc, etc, so hopefully the cost of ownership can be contained.
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