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Old 07-08-2018, 07:22 AM
TL2E90 TL2E90 is offline
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European vs American Diesel Engines

I know both variants of 2018 BMW540d share the same engine - B57D30. While the European model is tuned to produce 320 hp /502 lb ft, the american variant is a detuned version producing only 265hp/457 lb ft.
Question: how can we update our engine specs to the Euro variant. Any ECU updates available as of yet?

Last edited by TL2E90; 07-08-2018 at 07:24 AM.
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Old 07-08-2018, 08:44 AM
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Originally Posted by TL2E90 View Post
I know both variants of 2018 BMW540d share the same engine - B57D30. While the European model is tuned to produce 320 hp /502 lb ft, the american variant is a detuned version producing only 265hp/457 lb ft.
Question: how can we update our engine specs to the Euro variant. Any ECU updates available as of yet?
The European 540d is a twin-turbo engine. The US engine is actually a 530d (or perhaps 535d) single-turbo. You're not going to get there with a tune.
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Old 07-08-2018, 09:26 AM
TL2E90 TL2E90 is offline
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Originally Posted by floydarogers View Post
The European 540d is a twin-turbo engine. The US engine is actually a 530d (or perhaps 535d) single-turbo. You're not going to get there with a tune.
Take a look at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_5_Series_(G30) under Diesel Engines section. It appears we share the same engine altough the American version is de-tuned.
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Old 07-08-2018, 09:30 AM
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Originally Posted by floydarogers View Post
The European 540d is a twin-turbo engine. The US engine is actually a 530d (or perhaps 535d) single-turbo. You're not going to get there with a tune.
Also Motor Trends states that for 2018 there is a complete new engine: "Under the hood is a new 3.0-liter turbodiesel I-6 with 261 hp and 457 lb-ft of torque, an increase of 6 hp and 44 lb-ft compared to the outgoing 535d. An eight-speed automatic is the only transmission available. Despite the extra horsepower and torque, the 2018 BMW 540d xDrive is one of most efficient 5 Series variant with an EPA rating of 26/36 mpg (9/6.5 L/100km) city/highway. "
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Old 07-08-2018, 09:40 AM
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European vs American Diesel Engines

Quote:
Originally Posted by TL2E90 View Post
I know both variants of 2018 BMW540d share the same engine - B57D30. While the European model is tuned to produce 320 hp /502 lb ft, the american variant is a detuned version producing only 265hp/457 lb ft.
Question: how can we update our engine specs to the Euro variant. Any ECU updates available as of yet?


I think we are getting single turbo version. Previous 3.5d was also 3.0d version from Europe.
Only M57 in E90 and E70 are comparable to European 3.5d with bit different tune (265hp compared to 286 in Europe, but same torque) due to different NOx requirements in the US.
And that is where the problem is. NOx requirements in the US are different and our version might have different EGR and its cooler even if it is same engine.


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Last edited by edycol; 07-08-2018 at 09:41 AM.
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Old 07-08-2018, 11:28 AM
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Originally Posted by TL2E90 View Post
Take a look at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_5_Series_(G30) under Diesel Engines section. It appears we share the same engine altough the American version is de-tuned.
If you look at realoem.com, the EU version shows twin turbo, but the US/CA version (both 2018) is a single turbo. Which do you want to believe? Real info or something written by someone posted by someone?

https://www.realoem.com/bmw/enUS/sho...diagId=11_6516
https://www.realoem.com/bmw/enUS/sho...diagId=11_6606
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Old 07-08-2018, 11:30 AM
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Originally Posted by floydarogers View Post
If you look at realoem.com, the EU version shows twin turbo, but the US/CA version (both 2018) is a single turbo. Which do you want to believe? Real info or something written by someone posted by someone?

https://www.realoem.com/bmw/enUS/sho...diagId=11_6516
https://www.realoem.com/bmw/enUS/sho...diagId=11_6606
Thanks!
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Old 07-08-2018, 12:33 PM
TL2E90 TL2E90 is offline
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Seems G-Power has something for us but very expensive. I sent them an email to confirm the module works on NA G30 engines.
https://www.g-power.com/artikeldetai....php?details=1
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Old 07-09-2018, 09:29 AM
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As stated above, the US "540d" is the same as the EU "530d". On the wikipedia page for the G30, it shows the 530d as having 265 PS, which is approximately 261 hp.
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Old 07-09-2018, 10:46 AM
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As stated above, the US "540d" is the same as the EU "530d". On the wikipedia page for the G30, it shows the 530d as having 265 PS, which is approximately 261 hp.


American version of 530d will have different tune due to more stringent NOx requirements in the US.


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Old 07-09-2018, 11:30 AM
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Originally Posted by floydarogers View Post
The European 540d is a twin-turbo engine. The US engine is actually a 530d (or perhaps 535d) single-turbo. You're not going to get there with a tune.
I don't see why he couldn't get to with just a tune. Just because one engine has two turbos and the other is a singe doesn't necessarily mean they cannot make the same power. That depends on the what kind of turbo set up both have.

From the looks of the diagrams(not 100% sure), the EU engine looks to be a compound turbo set up, not a twin turbo. A high pressure turbo (smaller one) for low rpm and then a low pressure turbo (larger one) that takes over for higher rpm. The US version looks to have an actuator on it meaning that it is a VGT which does not require a high pressure small turbo since it can alter its aspect ratio to act as a smaller turbo. I don't know the specs, but if the big turbo on the EU engine is as big as the VG turbo on the US version, I don't see why it cannot be tuned to make the same peak power.

Of course I don't know if could do it and still be emissions legal due to the tighter NOx emissions requirement and different way of measuring NOx output in the US forcing BMW to keep the power low for less g/bhp-hr. Emissions is one of the reason why many US diesel have VGT's in the first place. Better control on NOx output throughout the whole rpm range.

Last edited by alacey; 07-09-2018 at 11:39 AM.
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Old 07-09-2018, 12:48 PM
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Old 07-09-2018, 01:08 PM
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Old 07-09-2018, 02:06 PM
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I don't see why he couldn't get to with just a tune. Just because one engine has two turbos and the other is a singe doesn't necessarily mean they cannot make the same power. That depends on the what kind of turbo set up both have.

From the looks of the diagrams(not 100% sure), the EU engine looks to be a compound turbo set up, not a twin turbo. A high pressure turbo (smaller one) for low rpm and then a low pressure turbo (larger one) that takes over for higher rpm. The US version looks to have an actuator on it meaning that it is a VGT which does not require a high pressure small turbo since it can alter its aspect ratio to act as a smaller turbo. I don't know the specs, but if the big turbo on the EU engine is as big as the VG turbo on the US version, I don't see why it cannot be tuned to make the same peak power.

Of course I don't know if could do it and still be emissions legal due to the tighter NOx emissions requirement and different way of measuring NOx output in the US forcing BMW to keep the power low for less g/bhp-hr. Emissions is one of the reason why many US diesel have VGT's in the first place. Better control on NOx output throughout the whole rpm range.


You do know that single turbo engine is available in Europe as 3.0d and twin turbo (small + big) is available as 3.5 and 4.0d in Europe?
No, single one cannot deliver same power as twin in a manner BMW wants it.


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Old 07-09-2018, 02:32 PM
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Originally Posted by edycol View Post
You do know that single turbo engine is available in Europe as 3.0d and twin turbo (small + big) is available as 3.5 and 4.0d in Europe?
No, single one cannot deliver same power as twin in a manner BMW wants it.


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Nope. I did not know that the EU diesel were of a larger displacement. I don't know to much about these small BMW diesels. Most of my diesel and racing experience is with US truck diesels with much higher power levels.

I was just going by the diagram that Floyd said posted which shows compound turbo set up with a small turbo pushing a larger one. Not a twin turbo configuration with two of the same size turbos used in conjunction.

Last edited by alacey; 07-09-2018 at 02:34 PM.
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Old 07-09-2018, 03:03 PM
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BMW uses (and has for 10 years or so) the same 3L block for engines designated 2.5, 3.0, 3.5. They recently started using the 4.0 label to designate the highest-power one - goes along with the gasser 340i B56 engine. Actually, there's a M50d designation that uses a tri-turbo setup, too. The small compound turbo setup is to get some torque down near 1200 rpm for step-off.

The 328d US actually is a 2L B47 engine (used to be N47), with a bigger intercooler and a few other things than the version sold in EU/etc as the 320d. Lots of marketing numbers...

There are certainly tunes and mods to get to very high peak power levels. It's pretty easy to get over 400hp on the older M57 engines if you want to run 12-second or better 1/4 miles... I'm sure that similar #s can be had with the B57. Of course, you pretty much have to run drag slicks to keep hooked up - 600 ft-lbs does want to spin them.

Last edited by floydarogers; 07-09-2018 at 03:07 PM. Reason: add hp numbers
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Old 07-09-2018, 03:23 PM
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Nope. I did not know that the EU diesel were of a larger displacement. I don't know to much about these small BMW diesels. Most of my diesel and racing experience is with US truck diesels with much higher power levels.

I was just going by the diagram that Floyd said posted which shows compound turbo set up with a small turbo pushing a larger one. Not a twin turbo configuration with two of the same size turbos used in conjunction.


They are not larger displacement. I would say you are talking about something you donít know much about it.


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Old 07-09-2018, 04:19 PM
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Originally Posted by floydarogers View Post
BMW uses (and has for 10 years or so) the same 3L block for engines designated 2.5, 3.0, 3.5. They recently started using the 4.0 label to designate the highest-power one - goes along with the gasser 340i B56 engine. Actually, there's a M50d designation that uses a tri-turbo setup, too. The small compound turbo setup is to get some torque down near 1200 rpm for step-off.

The 328d US actually is a 2L B47 engine (used to be N47), with a bigger intercooler and a few other things than the version sold in EU/etc as the 320d. Lots of marketing numbers...

There are certainly tunes and mods to get to very high peak power levels. It's pretty easy to get over 400hp on the older M57 engines if you want to run 12-second or better 1/4 miles... I'm sure that similar #s can be had with the B57. Of course, you pretty much have to run drag slicks to keep hooked up - 600 ft-lbs does want to spin them.
Thank you for the clarification.
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Old 07-09-2018, 07:37 PM
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Oh, they are the same displacement? Well then what I said still stands then. The single VG turbo engine can make as much peak power as the compound turbo engine if the VG turbo is as big and puts out the same pressure as the low pressure turbo on the compound set up. I seen it happen on the dyno plenty of times.



I may not know the different designations of BMW diesels, but I do know turbos and I definitely know diesels.


You can achieve a lot of power with single turbo. Regardless of VG if turbo is too big you will have huge lag. I already told you, the way BMW wants to make engine and the way they want power to be delivered, it is impossible to achieve 35d and 40d numbers (Euro) with single turbo.
One can achieve huge hp with 3.0ltr single turbo, question is how practical that is in real life.
For BMW it is not hard to achieve 300+hp with single turbo. Question is lag. VG can help only so much. If it was that simple, all of these engines would have single turbo or twin scroll turbo.


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Old 07-09-2018, 08:52 PM
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Originally Posted by edycol View Post
You can achieve a lot of power with single turbo. Regardless of VG if turbo is too big you will have huge lag. I already told you, the way BMW wants to make engine and the way they want power to be delivered, it is impossible to achieve 35d and 40d numbers (Euro) with single turbo.
One can achieve huge hp with 3.0ltr single turbo, question is how practical that is in real life.
For BMW it is not hard to achieve 300+hp with single turbo. Question is lag. VG can help only so much. If it was that simple, all of these engines would have single turbo or twin scroll turbo.


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Being that the other diesel that I drive has a VG turbo over twice the size of what is on 3.0L and has almost no turbo lag. I find it hard to believe that BMW can't make a huge VG turbo without lag but Cummins can. I can view my trucks VGT opening position on my pillar mounted CTS2, and believe me it is quick. Very quick. I can go from the vanes being closed for exhaust braking to back on the throttle creating boost in a fraction of a second.

Then again, maybe your are right. One of the biggest complaints of this car is the lack of power and boost before 1,700 rpm, and the slow turbo response versus my truck. Maybe BMW can learn a thing or two from Cummins or GM on how to build a bigger turbo with quick VG reaction.
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Old 07-09-2018, 11:02 PM
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Being that the other diesel that I drive has a VG turbo over twice the size of what is on 3.0L and has almost no turbo lag. I find it hard to believe that BMW can't make a huge VG turbo without lag but Cummins can. I can view my trucks VGT opening position on my pillar mounted CTS2, and believe me it is quick. Very quick. I can go from the vanes being closed for exhaust braking to back on the throttle creating boost in a fraction of a second.

Then again, maybe your are right. One of the biggest complaints of this car is the lack of power and boost before 1,700 rpm, and the slow turbo response versus my truck. Maybe BMW can learn a thing or two from Cummins or GM on how to build a bigger turbo with quick VG reaction.
Don't know why you say 1700 rpm - my M57 has full torque (boost) available at 1200 rpm - look at the torque curves. (Granted, I only know the older E90 engine.)

There's a big (BIG) difference between exhaust flow on a 3L than on your 6.4L. A bigger turbo on the little engine won't spool very fast on 1/2 the flow. But because the DDE (ECU) and TCU (transmission) keep RPMs above 1200 rpm virtually all the time, the BMW diesel always has full boost and torque available, too.

I think you should consider that there are many reasons for the single or compound turbo setup that BMW uses.
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Old 07-10-2018, 06:11 AM
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Originally Posted by floydarogers View Post
Don't know why you say 1700 rpm - my M57 has full torque (boost) available at 1200 rpm - look at the torque curves. (Granted, I only know the older E90 engine.)

There's a big (BIG) difference between exhaust flow on a 3L than on your 6.4L. A bigger turbo on the little engine won't spool very fast on 1/2 the flow. But because the DDE (ECU) and TCU (transmission) keep RPMs above 1200 rpm virtually all the time, the BMW diesel always has full boost and torque available, too.

I think you should consider that there are many reasons for the single or compound turbo setup that BMW uses.
I have a 6.7L inline 6 with the outlet to the exhaust manifold toward the back three cylinders which does not have as good of flow as an engine with the outlet in the middle like the BMW 3.0L does. I do know from modifying and tuning Cummins and Duramax diesels that a big VG turbo can not only make as much power as a compound set up, it can spool just as fast if not faster depending on the vane configuration. Comparing BMW's configuration versus Cummins, I can see why it is not as responsive.

I also don't have a 3.0L(and I am now wishing I did). I have a 328D with the 2.0L diesel so that probably explains my gripes about lacking power. Going from a 513rwhp diesel that makes gobs of power and torque as low as 1,000 rpm to a 180 hp diesel that needs to be revved to 2,000 rpm to get any power out of it is big difference in terms of seat of the pants feel. I figured deleting and tuning it would make it better, but while it did add a lot of power at 2,000 rpms, it did not do much power wise below 1,700 rpm. I know I bought the 2.0L for fuel mileage on my 40+ mile one way commute, but I am seriously debating going to the 3.0L diesel next year.
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Old 07-10-2018, 08:41 AM
edycol edycol is offline
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I have a 6.7L inline 6 with the outlet to the exhaust manifold toward the back three cylinders which does not have as good of flow as an engine with the outlet in the middle like the BMW 3.0L does. I do know from modifying and tuning Cummins and Duramax diesels that a big VG turbo can not only make as much power as a compound set up, it can spool just as fast if not faster depending on the vane configuration. Comparing BMW's configuration versus Cummins, I can see why it is not as responsive.



I also don't have a 3.0L(and I am now wishing I did). I have a 328D with the 2.0L diesel so that probably explains my gripes about lacking power. Going from a 513rwhp diesel that makes gobs of power and torque as low as 1,000 rpm to a 180 hp diesel that needs to be revved to 2,000 rpm to get any power out of it is big difference in terms of seat of the pants feel. I figured deleting and tuning it would make it better, but while it did add a lot of power at 2,000 rpms, it did not do much power wise below 1,700 rpm. I know I bought the 2.0L for fuel mileage on my 40+ mile one way commute, but I am seriously debating going to the 3.0L diesel next year.


I would say you are comparing apples and oranges.
I had numerous diesels with VGT and they all had obvious turbo lag. As far as I know single turbo set up is also VG on BMW.
Comparing Cummins in a truck that barely holds road in a straight line with car that is made for dynamic driving is ridiculous.
Multiple turbos on BMW are there so that manufacturer doesnít need to increase displacement and with that number of cylinders and with that weight, which would compromise perfect or in some models almost perfect weight distribution. BMW had V8 diesel but went away with it due to weight in front. MB and Audi still use V8 diesels but they are nowhere dynamic as BMW inline 6 with same power.


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Old 07-10-2018, 08:46 AM
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Originally Posted by floydarogers View Post
The 328d US actually is a 2L B47 engine (used to be N47), with a bigger intercooler and a few other things than the version sold in EU/etc as the 320d. Lots of marketing numbers...
328d in the US never received the B47. It's still N47.
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Old 07-10-2018, 09:19 AM
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328d in the US never received the B47. It's still N47.
Yeah, I think you're right now that I think about it.
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