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  #26  
Old 04-23-2018, 08:51 AM
pdegene pdegene is offline
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Thanks. New pads may be a good interim (and economical!) idea before jumping to $2500 brake kit. Especially since I only have 31k miles on car. If I needed rotors/pads soon, then a different story. I also am looking into steel brake lines but unless I heavily track the car, downside (unable inspect easily, less bending tolerance over rubber) may outweigh advantages.

My 17" bmw rims would become paperweight since won't fit on m performance. Also may need third set of (winter) rims and tires, or deal with unmount and remount winter/summer tires on current 18" Verde rims...and still will need 18" winter tires. So before I'm done....new brake system is $5k.

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Yeah... Sell the 17's, sell the tires on the 18's, buy snow tires for the 18's and get a new set of 19's with summer/all season rubbers!

Check CL for snow tires. Best time of year to buy them!! I've seen $400 tires for brand new on CL.
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  #27  
Old 04-23-2018, 09:21 AM
Matthew424 Matthew424 is offline
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Originally Posted by pdegene View Post
Yeah... Sell the 17's, sell the tires on the 18's, buy snow tires for the 18's and get a new set of 19's with summer/all season rubbers!

Check CL for snow tires. Best time of year to buy them!! I've seen $400 tires for brand new on CL.
Thanks!! Any recommendation for excellent brake pads? Stoptech seems to be a favorite but open to suggestions.

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  #28  
Old 04-23-2018, 09:23 AM
FaRKle! FaRKle! is offline
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Originally Posted by Matthew424 View Post
Priority is increased braking performance,
I think you'd be surprised at just how much improvement pads can do for you. They're also the least disruptive option in your case since they'll let you use your 17" wheels still.

Try some EBC Yellowstuff pads (front: DP42105R, rear: DP42132R).

SS lines, slotted/drilled rotors, and high-temp fluid won't do anything significant for you unless you're absolutely hammering the throttle from corner to corner and braking hard like you're at the track. This is coming from someone who started out with stock brakes, upgraded to the M-Perf/Sport brakes, ran stock fluid at the track, and has run a couple different pad types.

Last edited by FaRKle!; 04-23-2018 at 09:29 AM.
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  #29  
Old 04-23-2018, 09:30 AM
Matthew424 Matthew424 is offline
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Originally Posted by FaRKle! View Post
I think you'd be surprised at just how much improvement pads can do for you. They're also the least disruptive option in your case since they'll let you use your 17" wheels still.

Try some EBC Yellowstuff pads (front: DP42105R, rear: DP42132R).

SS lines, slotted/drilled rotors, and high-temp fluid won't do anything significant for you unless you're absolutely hammering the throttle from corner to corner and braking hard like you're at the track. This is coming from someone who started out with stock brakes, upgraded to the M-Perf/Sport brakes, ran stock fluid at the track, and played around with pad types.
Thanks for the experience and advice!! Assuming you need new pads and rotors (and no warranty to pay for it), was the m performance set worth the 2500 upgrade?

I'm Not worried about brake dust due to mileage and how often I wash the car, especially during summer.

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  #30  
Old 04-23-2018, 10:02 AM
FaRKle! FaRKle! is offline
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Thanks for the experience and advice!! Assuming you need new pads and rotors (and no warranty to pay for it), was the m performance set worth the 2500 upgrade?

I'm Not worried about brake dust due to mileage and how often I wash the car, especially during summer.

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I only spent about $1500 going to the M-Sport brake kit. It was worth it for me since I track the car. If I didn't track it, I don't think it'd be worth it from a performance standpoint (and I would've done it for cosmetic purposes instead).

One thing I hated about the stock M-Sport/Perf pads was the amount of dust they created. That and the squeaking in cold weather. I've since gone to dedicated street (EBC Red) and track (Pagid RSL29) pads.
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  #31  
Old 04-23-2018, 10:06 AM
Matthew424 Matthew424 is offline
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I only spent about $1500 going to the M-Sport brake kit. It was worth it for me since I track the car. If I didn't track it, I don't think it'd be worth it from a performance standpoint (and I would've done it for cosmetic purposes instead).

One thing I hated about the stock M-Sport/Perf pads was the amount of dust they created. That and the squeaking in cold weather. I've since gone to dedicated street (EBC Red) and track (Pagid RSL29) pads.
Was th squeaking year round? Or just when cold outside or not heated up?

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  #32  
Old 04-23-2018, 11:14 AM
FaRKle! FaRKle! is offline
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Was th squeaking year round? Or just when cold outside or not heated up?

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Just when cold out (<45F). It didn't get better after warming up by driving around.
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  #33  
Old 04-23-2018, 11:16 AM
Matthew424 Matthew424 is offline
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Just when cold out (<45F). It didn't get better after warming up by driving around.
Got it...thanks for info

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  #34  
Old 04-23-2018, 01:25 PM
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... it's awesome to have that power at your foot and comparable brakes to stop.
You already have them. BMW OE brakes are already outstanding right from the factory. They have plenty of design reserve to cope with modest power upgrades.

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Originally Posted by Matthew424 View Post
When I put my foot down, I want better biting and responsiveness.
Then experiment with different pads. Honestly though, the OE pads (typically Textar or Ate, IIRC) are near the top of the heap for best compromise between dust generation, noise, cold bite, modulation, and fade resistance (among street-friendly compounds). Usually, improvements in one or more of those areas comes at the expense of the others.

Over the past five years I have probably seen the brakes on at least a couple hundred BMWs at event-day inspections for HPDEs. I am not exaggerating when I say that big brake kits are perhaps the least common performance modification I see on street-driven cars--maybe 1% tops. Most people throw in a set of dedicated track pads, upgrade the brake fluid (usually well beyond what's needed), and drive the wheels off 'em. And you know what? They're perfectly safe and more than adequate for track duty, at any pace up to and including instructor-level.

The main advantages of BBKs are heat management, caliper rigidity and ease of maintenance (quick pad changes). While all of those are important, none will be as noticeable in everyday street driving as a switch to a pad compound designed to address the characteristic(s) you feel are lacking. Until you get into the realm of stripped-down, dedicated track rats and race cars, big brakes return only small incremental gains on a whole lot of cash.
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  #35  
Old 04-23-2018, 03:27 PM
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^^^

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  #36  
Old 04-23-2018, 04:12 PM
John in VA John in VA is offline
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https://www.ebay.com/p/High-Temp-BRE...8480992&chn=ps

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  #37  
Old 04-23-2018, 05:19 PM
VCuomo VCuomo is offline
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Just IMHO, but the stock brakes are designed for "some weekend drives and daily driver duty". You don't need to replace what you already have.
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  #38  
Old 04-23-2018, 05:28 PM
Matthew424 Matthew424 is offline
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Just IMHO, but the stock brakes are designed for "some weekend drives and daily driver duty". You don't need to replace what you already have.
The stock brakes aren't bad but I want better response and bite. Some may be content with the current stock brake performance.

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  #39  
Old 04-24-2018, 08:40 PM
Elk Elk is offline
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All you need are pads which are a bit more aggressive. Why are you fighting this?
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  #40  
Old 04-24-2018, 08:58 PM
John MS John MS is offline
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All you need are pads which are a bit more aggressive. Why are you fighting this?
Because he wants the look that comes with calipers that are branded Brembo. You can't see pads. And yes the stock brakes will take the tires to the point of skidding and abs engagement.

Painted calipers would get him 90% of the look.

Last edited by John MS; 04-24-2018 at 09:00 PM.
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  #41  
Old 04-25-2018, 03:06 AM
Matthew424 Matthew424 is offline
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Because he wants the look that comes with calipers that are branded Brembo. You can't see pads. And yes the stock brakes will take the tires to the point of skidding and abs engagement.

Painted calipers would get him 90% of the look.
I dont care about the look and painting on the calipers. In fact the M Sport Performance calipers do NOT boldly say Brembo on them. As previously noted, I want better grip and performance.

As many have suggested before jumping into the M Performance brake kit, I am looking into better pads at this point. From Tire Rack, Hawk High Performance Street 5.0 Brake Pads may be best. any experiences?
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  #42  
Old 04-25-2018, 07:37 AM
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I am looking into better pads at this point. From Tire Rack, Hawk High Performance Street 5.0 Brake Pads may be best. any experiences?
I have tried several Hawk compounds for street/track use over the past five years, in my E90 335xi and E46 330Ci: HPS, High Performance Street 5.0 and Street/Race. Currently, I fit Hawk Street/Race pads to the E46 during the driving season (having grown too lazy to swap pads before & after driver schools ).

I found the initial, cold bite of all three compounds notably inferior to BMW OE pads; all improve when hot. You said bite was important to you so I think you might find any of these disappointing. HPS 5.0 was the best in that respect but still could not quite match OE. HPS, being older technology, was not quite as good its successor. Street/Race pads have remarkable cold bite, given their high-temperature chops, but can be heart-stopping when they have no heat in them whatsoever. Tailgating at any speed above a walk with cold Street/Race pads under your foot is a really, really bad idea.They're fine when you pay attention--in fact, at least as good as OE when even a little warm--but can scare the daylights out of you when you don't.

I'm not sure what you mean by "responsiveness" but am going to guess braking torque and modulation. Street/Race offers the most torque by a wide margin (when hot), followed by HPS 5.0 and HPS. All of them exceed OE pads. As for modulation, the latter two are comparable to OE, with Street/Race being dependent on personal experience. If you have an HPDE-trained braking technique, modulation is very good when hot and a somewhat less than OE-quality when cold. To an untrained driver, Street/Race pads probably feel like an on/off switch.

Fade resistance matches what one might infer from the product names. HPS was probably a touch better than OE, HPS 5.0 better still and Street/Race vastly superior to the others.

Noise performance shuffles the order a bit. HPS was as quiet as OE--when installed with meticulous care and properly bedded. If they squeaked, you knew you'd rushed the installation. HPS 5.0 was an improvement, achieving similar performance with less fussy workmanship. Street/Race pads shriek, groan and howl like a battered dump truck full of hog-tied banshees--until they're hot. Trouble is, it's impossible to keep them hot enough on the street. They're quiet for about half a day after bedding in and that's all you get. I am half-seriously considering stickers that proclaim "BRAKES SQUEAL BECAUSE RACECAR" (or at least, "No, I don't need brakes.").

Then there's the dust. If memory serves, HPS was filthy; blame older technology. HPS 5.0 was a substantial improvement but still quite dusty. Street/Race pads, surprisingly, fall somewhere in between--even under race conditions they seem to produce less dust than the others. Which is odd, given that Street/Race pads erode the rotors markedly faster than the other two ("rotor-friendly" being a relative adjective for race pads).

Overall, Street/Race would be better named Race/Street. They're great for driving a track-focused car safely on the street (preferably without passengers ). They're a bit miserable for a street car that sometimes goes for aggressive canyon-carving or out to the track.

High Performance Street 5.0 is a very good all-around pad with better high-temperature characteristics than OE, at the expense of slightly inferior cold performance. I regard HPS as obsolete at this point, not worth consideration unless on a tight budget.
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Last edited by Zeichen311; 04-25-2018 at 08:00 AM.
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  #43  
Old 04-25-2018, 09:11 AM
John MS John MS is offline
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I dont care about the look and painting on the calipers. In fact the M Sport Performance calipers do NOT boldly say Brembo on them. As previously noted, I want better grip and performance.

As many have suggested before jumping into the M Performance brake kit, I am looking into better pads at this point. From Tire Rack, Hawk High Performance Street 5.0 Brake Pads may be best. any experiences?
If stock brakes can take the car to the point of skidding adding more grip seems like a mostly theoretical exercise.
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  #44  
Old 04-25-2018, 09:45 AM
tharber tharber is offline
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Changing over to better rotors slotted or drilled or both and pads might give you the performance you want without breaking the bank. The kits I have installed are $400 to $500 for rotors, pads, slide grease and sensors. You can do this without changing calipers and then no need to change wheels. As I mentioned before I did this to my sons car and the stopping is noticeably better and with ceramic pads, less dust. They made night and day difference in my Hummer. Try slowing down that beast when some idiot cuts in front of you.

Caliper paint is also cheap and easy and does make a huge visual change to the car.

Many people will knock your choices because they try to be purists. Drive it the way you want it, make it look the way you want it to look and ignore them.
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  #45  
Old 04-25-2018, 09:53 AM
johnpcook1 johnpcook1 is offline
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I want Brembo brakes...

I asked a similar question on a thread I recently started To Brembo or not to Brembo..
https://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho....php?t=1260452 ..I wanted to have better than OEM performance and minimize dust on my daily driver.. In the end, I went with Brembo branded ceramic pads and Brembo OEM style rotors.. I painted my calipers and pad carriers black to match my wheels.. replaced the caliper bushings with OEM and new anti-rattle clips.. and I replaced the hoses with ECS Tuning S/S braided hoses.. after a flush (bleed) and fill.. it looks great and stops better than before.. ‘02 530i with M/Sport/Luxury packages


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  #46  
Old 04-25-2018, 03:46 PM
bmwexpat bmwexpat is offline
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Originally Posted by Matthew424 View Post
I dont care about the look and painting on the calipers. In fact the M Sport Performance calipers do NOT boldly say Brembo on them. As previously noted, I want better grip and performance.

As many have suggested before jumping into the M Performance brake kit, I am looking into better pads at this point. From Tire Rack, Hawk High Performance Street 5.0 Brake Pads may be best. any experiences?
My 2 cents on this brake discussion:

The purpose of any automobile braking system is to convert mechanical energy to heat energy. How well the 3 main components deal with dissipating this heat energy dictates how well the braking system works. In very simple terms, the calipers provide braking force via the hydraulic bake fluid and provide large surface areas to dissipate heat. The brake pads provide friction material that can stand up to high temperatures and transfer the heat through to the calipers. The rotors are physically attached to the rotating wheel hubs and serve the dual purpose of dissipating heat as well as transferring the loss of heat to mechanical grip where the tires meet the road.

BBK’s – If you track the car a BBK will deal very nicely with the extra heat generated by the heavy and repeated braking demands of a race track. For a street application, there is a minimal benefit but cosmetically they look great. A good BBK system is going to run $2500-3000 per axel. If you have the budget go for it but if money is a concern this is a bad cost vs. reward for a street application. Another cost factor with a BBK is the high probability that you will need to invest in new wheels. Your 18’s may work, but clearance and offsets are crucial and the odds are high your current 18’s will hit the BBK.

Rotors – For street use the one piece rotors will work just fine. That said, 2 piece rotors are not that expensive and offer better heat management and look good. This is also an easy DIY project so it’s a personal judgment and budget decision.

Brake Pads – This is where many options, price points, and tradeoffs reside. The BMW OEM pads are not a bad pad. They work well, don’t dust much and are not subject to much noise. However, I agree that they lack initial bite and provide little modulation or feel under hard braking.

The 3 main trades-offs for brake pads are dust, noise, and cost. When you want a pad with better initial bite and good modulation capabilities there are lots of pads that exceed the OEM pads and will meet your performance needs but all produce either lots of dust or noise and quite a few produce both.

In my experience I have only found one manufacturer “Endless “ that provides an almost “unicorn” pad, great bite, no noise and almost zero dust. It’s also a pad that will hold up well for someone with average capabilities on a racetrack. I’m running this pad on my daily driver Audi S4, weekend M3, and just put on a set on my old dog Porsche. If you have the budget, you will not go wrong with Endless MX72 pads. I have been running these pads for over 4 years and have nothing but praise for them. They will last 30-40K miles on a daily driver. The only downside to these pads is cost. You will be looking at $400 per axel for these pads. Like I have stated not cheap but if you want the closest thing to a “Unicorn Pad” you will not be disappointed in Endless MX72’s.
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Old 04-25-2018, 04:05 PM
TXBonedaddy TXBonedaddy is offline
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The stock brakes are really good, and have almost no dust - theyre just fugly. I looked into the M brake upgrade, but its advantage is mostly for track use in fade resistance, not quicker stops. You think your stock BMW brakes dont stop fast enough? **** - I bet I could make a vette rear end me with mine. I chose to cover the ugly ass calipers at the cost of bmw douche scrutiny. I really dont know any other 3 series bimmer owners around here (mostly X3/5 and 7 series), so I came out with a better look for just 200 bones down (its funny how much the X5 people ask about them). I had some serious dust problems with my challenger srt brembos that pretty much ruined my wheels, and try to avoid that with a daily driver...

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Old 04-25-2018, 06:50 PM
bmwexpat bmwexpat is offline
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It's a common misconception that aftermarket brake pads will stop a vehicle in a shorter distance than the stock OEM pads. If the OEM pad can lock up the wheels or engage the ABS system, the limiting factor is the mechanical grip of the tires. An aftermarket pad will at best, match an OEM pad in total stopping distance

Where aftermarket pads have differences/advantages from an OEM pad is in initial "bite" of the pad and feel and modulation of the brake pedal under heavy or performance braking situations. Another major difference the ability of aftermarket pads to perform well under high heat temperatures after repeated stops or repeated heavy braking.

A typical OEM pad performance - feel/stopping distance falls of dramatically after say 6-10 heavy braking maneuvers of say 80 MPH to 10 MPH. A high quality aftermarket pad feels great and very predictable under the same parameters.
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Old 04-27-2018, 07:11 PM
Matthew424 Matthew424 is offline
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thanks for the feedback and information everyone, very much appreciated.
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