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  #251  
Old 02-15-2019, 02:53 PM
1968BMW2800 1968BMW2800 is offline
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Just so we are clear here. There is no rule or law that prevents a leasee from buying a car he/she has returned at lease end. The most important rule is the rule of supply and demand. If the lease residual buyout number is, say $30,000 but the market says the car is worth $22,000, then sooner or later, somewhere, that lease return is going to be in the marketplace and will sell for around what the market says it should sell for -- probably closer to $22,000 than $30,000. What leases give the leasee is the option to purchase for residual value. BMW tells its dealers that they will pay a surcharge if they sell lease returns to leasees for less than the residual. For obvious reasons, "fair" or not.


But once a car is placed into dealer inventory off of lease return and the dealer sets an offered price, nobody, and I mean nobody, can prevent the original leasee from buying that used car from the dealer at or below the dealer's offered price.


No need to be clever. But please, be smart. Look at the total dollars you've poured into the leased car and look at, at the best possible price, what additional dollars will be poured in, including likely out-of-warranty service and repairs. Has to be a very creamy cream puff at a very, very good price to make the numbers work. Purchase to keep/lease to turn in and start fresh every few years. Turning leases into purchases makes sense in only a few circumstances, like when your employer has paid for your lease and you can buy the car for yourself at a good price at lease end. But why?? Life's too short.
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  #252  
Old 02-16-2019, 10:56 AM
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BMW NA/FS will pick this up from the Experian data collected from the state DMV when the vehicle is registered, as this was indirectly revealed by BMW NA in a pleading today regarding ongoing litigation ivolving Braman BMW.
Is BMW NA/FS actively monitoring all BMW VINs they ever leased? The car will initially be registered in the family member's name and address. A family member can buy the car from the dealer, wait a week, a month, or 6 months later and transfer the car.
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  #253  
Old 02-16-2019, 11:20 AM
MJBrown62 MJBrown62 is offline
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Is BMW NA/FS actively monitoring all BMW VINs they ever leased? The car will initially be registered in the family member's name and address. A family member can buy the car from the dealer, wait a week, a month, or 6 months later and transfer the car.
They use the Experian data to determine customer loyalty: who has bought in brand, and at which dealer. If they have bought another brand and which one, etc.

Yeah, BMW dealers are help accountable for keeping clients in their store or in the brand.

mjb
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  #254  
Old 02-17-2019, 07:52 PM
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They use the Experian data to determine customer loyalty: who has bought in brand, and at which dealer. If they have bought another brand and which one, etc.

Yeah, BMW dealers are help accountable for keeping clients in their store or in the brand.

mjb
I'm surprised that the Center Agreement lacks an arbitration clause, as there is almost daily new information from the Braman Motors v. BMW NA litigation pleadings available via the public court docket with the mud slinging between the parties.

My local GM is begging me to buy local, as I'm pumping in 3 out of market vehicles into his PMA.
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  #255  
Old 02-19-2019, 07:09 AM
Alpine300ZHP Alpine300ZHP is offline
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Big Changes in lease buyout pricing

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Originally Posted by Ibiza View Post
I'm surprised that the Center Agreement lacks an arbitration clause, as there is almost daily new information from the Braman Motors v. BMW NA litigation pleadings available via the public court docket with the mud slinging between the parties.



My local GM is begging me to buy local, as I'm pumping in 3 out of market vehicles into his PMA.


Iím thinking the center agreement lacks arbitration clause because dealers owners/groups would never agree to it. You tend to see mandatory arbitration clauses in situations where an ignorant or uncaring consumer agrees to it, but rarely do you see them when you are talking about agreements that cost 100ís of millions of dollars. What dealer group in their right mind would agree to an arbitration agreement with this kind of money on the line? I know I wouldnít.

As for your local GM begging you to buy local, it makes sense. My relationship with my favorite center is local after he watched me buy out of state and out of area for over a decade. Eventually, he got to the point where he realized that giving me the deals I want was worthwhile to him, even if they are thin, because I buy a LOT of cars and I have a LOT of friends that I send his way. He just sold another M3 to a friend of mine last month and that was the 3rd sale from my referrals in a 12 month period....not including the couple of cars I purchased too.


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  #256  
Old 09-10-2019, 10:03 AM
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Can anybody tell me what constitutes "household" for BMW FS? Here is my situation. My son has a beautiful low mileage (12,000) 2016 X1 with a lease that expires in November of this year. He has zero interest in keeping the car - he is going to get a pickup truck. He lives 100 miles away from me, is 25 years old and is his own person - not in any way dependent on me . Will BMW FS make the dealer pay a penalty if my son turns in the X1 at the end of the lease and I buy it from the dealer? By the way, my son and I have the same last name.
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  #257  
Old 09-10-2019, 06:51 PM
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Household is the same address as far as BMW is concerned. If you guys live separately and will register the car at different addresses, it should be a different household.
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  #258  
Old 09-10-2019, 07:39 PM
1968BMW2800 1968BMW2800 is offline
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"Same customer or household, or to a business related party." I think that's the language they still use.

Also, don't forget to contact BMWFS and have a chat to see if they will offer at least a slight discount below residual if you buy the car at lease-end. They offered me $700 below residual on my MINI last month.
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  #259  
Old 09-11-2019, 07:13 PM
namelessman namelessman is offline
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Originally Posted by 1968BMW2800 View Post
But once a car is placed into dealer inventory off of lease return and the dealer sets an offered price, nobody, and I mean nobody, can prevent the original leasee from buying that used car from the dealer at or below the dealer's offered price.
The current policy is that such a transcation can trigger chargeback to dealer, so it is not in the best interest of dealer to comply with original lessee's intent.
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  #260  
Old 09-12-2019, 09:01 AM
1968BMW2800 1968BMW2800 is offline
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The current policy is that such a transcation can trigger chargeback to dealer, so it is not in the best interest of dealer to comply with original lessee's intent.
Right. I think jj nailed it in post #1 on this thread. Clearly BMWNA is discouraging lease-end buyouts.

And from what I heard recently, dealers are stocking a lot of their used BMW inventory from the auctions these days.

In the case of my current MINI lease, the dynamic pricing offer MINI (BMW) Financial gave was too high given the current retail market. Residual is $27,700 (65% residual -- those were the days!), I can buy it off lease for $27,000, the car is worth $23K ~ $24K high retail (with less than 20,000 miles and front line clean), and, well, let's just say, the dynamic pricing offer was in the full current retail neighborhood, and my dealer thinks my MINI will sell for around $17K ~ $18K at auction.

There you have it.
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  #261  
Old 09-25-2019, 11:29 AM
hatepotholez hatepotholez is offline
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Originally Posted by 1968BMW2800 View Post
Just so we are clear here. There is no rule or law that prevents a leasee from buying a car he/she has returned at lease end. The most important rule is the rule of supply and demand. If the lease residual buyout number is, say $30,000 but the market says the car is worth $22,000, then sooner or later, somewhere, that lease return is going to be in the marketplace and will sell for around what the market says it should sell for -- probably closer to $22,000 than $30,000. What leases give the leasee is the option to purchase for residual value. BMW tells its dealers that they will pay a surcharge if they sell lease returns to leasees for less than the residual. For obvious reasons, "fair" or not.


But once a car is placed into dealer inventory off of lease return and the dealer sets an offered price, nobody, and I mean nobody, can prevent the original leasee from buying that used car from the dealer at or below the dealer's offered price.


No need to be clever. But please, be smart. Look at the total dollars you've poured into the leased car and look at, at the best possible price, what additional dollars will be poured in, including likely out-of-warranty service and repairs. Has to be a very creamy cream puff at a very, very good price to make the numbers work. Purchase to keep/lease to turn in and start fresh every few years. Turning leases into purchases makes sense in only a few circumstances, like when your employer has paid for your lease and you can buy the car for yourself at a good price at lease end. But why?? Life's too short.
So as soon as the dealer lists in under their inventory and I buy it a minute later it'll be ok with no surcharge to the dealer?
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  #262  
Old 09-25-2019, 11:32 AM
Robert A Robert A is offline
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So as soon as the dealer lists in under their inventory and I buy it a minute later it'll be ok with no surcharge to the dealer?
Would it matter if there was a surcharge to the dealer?
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  #263  
Old 09-25-2019, 11:33 AM
hatepotholez hatepotholez is offline
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Would it matter if there was a surcharge to the dealer?
I am pretty sure it will be rerouted to me.
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  #264  
Old 09-25-2019, 11:39 AM
Robert A Robert A is offline
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I am pretty sure it will be rerouted to me.
Well, they can't do so after the sale, but they can, of course, refuse to resell the car to you in the first place.

I think returning one's car in the hopes of repurchasing it off the lot is a risky proposition. The car could easilly be snagged by another customer or dealer.
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  #265  
Old 09-25-2019, 11:43 AM
hatepotholez hatepotholez is offline
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Well, they can't do so after the sale, but they can, of course, refuse to resell the car to you in the first place.

I think returning one's car in the hopes of repurchasing it off the lot is a risky proposition. The car could easilly be snagged by another customer or dealer.
That is true, but I am assuming my CA won't let that happen. I am a loyal customer lol
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  #266  
Old 09-25-2019, 01:54 PM
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So as soon as the dealer lists in under their inventory and I buy it a minute later it'll be ok with no surcharge to the dealer?
You would have to ask, but I dont think the surcharge to the dealer would be avoided by them by the simple act of taking the car into inventory then letting the original person buy it.

If it were that easy, there would be no point in having the rule in the first place, right? Its too easy, so is likely accounted for. You could always ask though /shrug.

In order to use such a loophole, you would need to both work with the dealer (they would have to be complicit in it), AND get someone who does not share your address to purchase it. Maybe a brother / sister / relative who doesnt live with you.

Then you would need to deal with transferring it to your name. If you were paying cash as a buyout, not that hard to get a relative to buy it for you I would imagine. If paying with a loan, a bit more difficult...

but, just "you" buying it back from the same dealers lot, probably not going to happen.
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  #267  
Old 09-25-2019, 02:11 PM
1968BMW2800 1968BMW2800 is offline
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So as soon as the dealer lists in under their inventory and I buy it a minute later it'll be ok with no surcharge to the dealer?
I do not believe this is correct. While a dealer may not refuse to sell an available car from inventory -- and this is the important distinction -- the car needs to be grounded, purchased from BMWFS for whatever the dynamic price is, then safety-checked and all the rest, then put into regular retail resale inventory at whatever price the dealer asks, and, at that point, if the original leasee walks into the showroom and offers to purchase the vehicle at the dealer's asking price, I don't believe the dealer can refuse to sell it. But, yes, if/when BMWFS figures out the original leasee bought the car, then the dealer pays the surcharge if BMWFS chooses to demand it. So, if Good Karma means anything, then doing such a deal without offering to pay the surcharge in addition to the selling price of the car would, IMHO, not be healthy for the Karmic Flow or one's relationship with the dealer.

Now what can happen is, if near lease-end a customer calls BMWFS and says they are interested in purchasing a car at lease-end, BMWFS might offer the customer a very slight discount below the residual. MINI Financial (BMWFS with a different name) said I could buy my MINI next month at lease end for $700 below residual. That $700 discount put the car at about $5,000 OVER current retail value, before taxes and tags. For whatever business reasons, the BMW Mothership would rather sell a car at auction for thousands below residual than sell it to the leasee for a bit more than auction but a lot less than residual.

We don't make the rules.... we just keep leasing until we come to our senses or until we're broke. I am scheduled to pay another new lease fee and start my next lease next month, so what do I know??? I can quit anytime.
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  #268  
Old 09-25-2019, 02:14 PM
Squeak Squeak is offline
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Originally Posted by 1968BMW2800 View Post
I do not believe this is correct. While a dealer may not refuse to sell an available car from inventory -- and this is the important distinction -- the car needs to be grounded, purchased from BMWFS for whatever the dynamic price is, then safety-checked and all the rest, then put into regular retail resale inventory at whatever price the dealer asks, and, at that point, if the original leasee walks into the showroom and offers to purchase the vehicle at the dealer's asking price, I don't believe the dealer can refuse to sell it.
Why do you say that? The dealer is well within their rights to not sell that car at that price to that individual -- they are under no obligation to sell the car for a price that causes them to incur additional fees, as that would not be a protected class.

Last edited by Squeak; 09-25-2019 at 02:22 PM.
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  #269  
Old 09-25-2019, 02:22 PM
1968BMW2800 1968BMW2800 is offline
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Oh, and this month my dealer got a dynamic price quote for my under 20,000 mile super-clean MINI. The dynamic price was about current market retail. My dealer said that it's $1,000 ~ $2,000 on top of the dynamic price cost for safety/recon, and flooring, then cost-of-sale. My car is going to the auction. A dealer somewhere will buy it for wholesale or less and hope to sell it for a profit somewhere down the road.
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  #270  
Old 09-25-2019, 02:30 PM
1968BMW2800 1968BMW2800 is offline
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Why do you say that? The dealer is well within their rights to not sell that car at that price to that individual -- they are under no obligation to sell the car for a price that causes them to incur additional fees, as that would not be a protected class.
I say it because, if a dealer has a car on the lot for sale, and a financially qualified buyer offers to purchase that car for the asking price, well, that could be a very nasty lawsuit, requiring the dealer to 'splain why he/she wouldn't sell a car that is for sale to a willing, qualified buyer. Any willing qualified buyer.

Same deal as if a dealer said to a qualified female buyer, "Sorry, we will only sell this car to a male."

Now, could a dealer make it difficult? Could a dealer lie and say the car was already promised to someone else?

What a wise dealer would do is say, "I'm asking $XX,XXX for this car, which, at this price, holds a nice profit for me. You want it? You need to pay the full asking price because out of my nice profit , after paying sales commission and reconditioning and safety and flooring, I'll be paying the surcharge to BMW for selling it back to you."

POINT IS, it can be done. Question is, why????
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  #271  
Old 09-25-2019, 02:36 PM
Squeak Squeak is offline
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Originally Posted by Squeak View Post
Why do you say that? The dealer is well within their rights to not sell that car at that price to that individual -- they are under no obligation to sell the car for a price that causes them to incur additional fees, as that would not be a protected class.
I say it because, if a dealer has a car on the lot for sale, and a financially qualified buyer offers to purchase that car for the asking price, well, that could be a very nasty lawsuit, requiring the dealer to 'splain why he/she wouldn't sell a car that is for sale to a willing, qualified buyer. Any willing qualified buyer.

Same deal as if a dealer said to a qualified female buyer, "Sorry, we will only sell this car to a male."

Now, could a dealer make it difficult? Could a dealer lie and say the car was already promised to someone else?

What a wise dealer would do is say, "I'm asking $XX,XXX for this car, which, at this price, holds a nice profit for me. You want it? You need to pay the full asking price because out of my nice profit , after paying sales commission and reconditioning and safety and flooring, I'll be paying the surcharge to BMW for selling it back to you."

POINT IS, it can be done. Question is, why????
Sorry, but you are wrong here. Dealer can absolutely refuse to sell a car as long as they don't base it on one of the protected classes. Sex is a protected class. Previous owner trying to get a better deal is not.

The dealer is not obligated to take a worse deal because you are trying to circumvent the policies in place.

That language about the surcharge being retroactively charged to the dealer is explicitly in place to stop the scenario you are talking about
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  #272  
Old 09-25-2019, 02:47 PM
1968BMW2800 1968BMW2800 is offline
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I just went through this drill with my dealer. The GSM very patiently walked me through my options.

I learned:

1. Dealer buys my lease return for the dynamic price..
2. I pay the lease return fee
3. Dealer does required safety and whatever else is required for him to lawfully offer the car for sale, at his expense.
4. Dealer sells me the car for dynamic price + safety/recon + surcharge + $1,000 gross profit + tax + tags.

or

I buy the car directly off of lease end from BMW (MIINI) FS for $700 less than residual + tax + tags, the lease return fee is waived and I have no more free scheduled maintenance and one year left of factory warranty. In this instance it was my understanding that my dealer would not pay a surcharge, but I would pay way above market for the car.

Neither made sense for a 2017 car that has a retail market value less than either of the above amounts.

Inflated residuals make it difficult for the numbers to work, except when the stars align on rare + popular special cars.

Last edited by 1968BMW2800; 09-25-2019 at 03:55 PM.
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  #273  
Old 09-25-2019, 02:54 PM
1968BMW2800 1968BMW2800 is offline
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Originally Posted by Squeak View Post
Sorry, but you are wrong here. Dealer can absolutely refuse to sell a car as long as they don't base it on one of the protected classes. Sex is a protected class. Previous owner trying to get a better deal is not.

The dealer is not obligated to take a worse deal because you are trying to circumvent the policies in place.

That language about the surcharge being retroactively charged to the dealer is explicitly in place to stop the scenario you are talking about
Your confidence regarding this matter is impressive. We will have to agree to disagree. Here, on the Left Coast, the legal quagmire that awaits a dealer who "refuses" to sell a car, absent any evidence of fraud or misrepresentation on the part of the prospective buyer, is daunting.

My uninformed lay opinion is that, in our scenario, where the qualified lease return buyer comes back to the dealer and says, "I see you have my lease return back in your inventory for sale at $XX,XXX. I'll buy it for that today," is probably gonna get the car. I would imagine that the GSM at the BMW dealer has a person they can call at BMW HQ and tell them, "Here's what I've got," resulting in a deal working itself out.

Can't imagine BMW wanting a "disappointed" returning customer walking around this YELP world shouting, "XYZ BMW Refused to sell me a car even though I offered to pay their full asking price."

My point remains, if it's all above-board, I don't see how the buyer gets the numbers to work.

Last edited by 1968BMW2800; 09-25-2019 at 02:59 PM.
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  #274  
Old 09-25-2019, 04:20 PM
namelessman namelessman is offline
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Originally Posted by 1968BMW2800 View Post
My uninformed lay opinion is that, in our scenario, where the qualified lease return buyer comes back to the dealer and says, "I see you have my lease return back in your inventory for sale at $XX,XXX. I'll buy it for that today," is probably gonna get the car. I would imagine that the GSM at the BMW dealer has a person they can call at BMW HQ and tell them, "Here's what I've got," resulting in a deal working itself out.

Can't imagine BMW wanting a "disappointed" returning customer walking around this YELP world shouting, "XYZ BMW Refused to sell me a car even though I offered to pay their full asking price."

My point remains, if it's all above-board, I don't see how the buyer gets the numbers to work.
BMWFS/BMWNA's language does not prohibit selling lease return back to the original lessee, it is just that dealer will be charged a punitive surcharge that makes the deal financially unattractive, right?

surcharge = contracted RV - allowance(only $700 these days?) - sales prices + penalty(?)
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  #275  
Old 09-26-2019, 09:46 AM
kpytoi9 kpytoi9 is offline
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I guess my question is how does BMWFS know that the person buying it is the previous owner especially if I am paying cash? IF I am doing a loan, I am sure the dealer can finance me through another entity/bank.
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