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  #4151  
Old 07-07-2020, 12:16 PM
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Everyone who sits in the Taycan says it handles incredibly well. Not in the same category as its weight would suggest. One guy said it is in the league of the 911 GT2 RS. It just handles great and that's mostly achieved by electronics (of course it needs the excellent hardware as well). This is a knowhow BMW, Porsche and other experienced groups have.
Taycan does have rear door manual levers!

There is no personal experience driving a Taycan to contrast with Tesla/Model 3, but Porsche's build quality should be better than Telsa, e.g. Porsche(like BMW) does not skip on paint under the hood!
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  #4152  
Old 07-07-2020, 12:24 PM
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One of the things about Teslas that is a game changer when it comes to cars is their over the air updates that can change the cars quite dramatically. One of those changes is what has been done to track mode on the Model 3 Performance. The Track Mode V2 update came out about 4 months ago, and allows configuration of the vehicle's responses at the limit.

You want to drift? No problem. You like a car that oversteers at the limit? No problem. You like a car that understeers at the limit? No problem. And you can do this with just a few adjustments on the touch screen, even while you're moving. Try that with your M3.
OTA can be double-edged swords, e.g. things can be improved, or worsened ....

Also note that OTA's basically are real-time debug/trial runs for engineers without loaners.

And OTA cannot fix everything, e.g. panel gaps, missing clips/connectors, paint quality, design choices(e.g. door mechanical lever), use(or lack of) corrugated tubes, etc, etc.

Those are hardware issues/choices that OTA cannot touch.

Last edited by namelessman; 07-07-2020 at 12:26 PM.
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  #4153  
Old 07-07-2020, 03:18 PM
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Originally Posted by namelessman View Post
OTA can be double-edged swords, e.g. things can be improved, or worsened ....

Also note that OTA's basically are real-time debug/trial runs for engineers without loaners.

And OTA cannot fix everything, e.g. panel gaps, missing clips/connectors, paint quality, design choices(e.g. door mechanical lever), use(or lack of) corrugated tubes, etc, etc.

Those are hardware issues/choices that OTA cannot touch.
OTA is a paradigm changer for cars. With other manufacturers' cars, you get the cars as delivered and that's it. You have to wait until the next model year to see if they make any improvements, and then if you want those improvements, you have to buy a new car. Tesla has turned that notion on its head to the benefit of the consumer.

Here's just a partial list of the improvements that my car has received via OTA updates since I bought it 19 months ago, all at no cost.
- 2 power improvements of about 5% each
- improved charging rates at Superchargers, first from 120kWh to 150kWh, and then from 150kWh to 250kWh
- Voice control of almost all car functions, initially it was only for navigation and media control
- Sentry mode to make video recordings of those who get too close to the car
- Built-in dashcam with viewer
- Pet mode to allow climate control to run with pets in the car
- Substantially improved auto-pilot operation
- One pedal driving mode

Actually, here's a link to someone who compiled a list of OTA updates.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...dHc/edit#gid=0

As for actual physical parts, Tesla is the same as any other car.

Last edited by GregD; 07-07-2020 at 03:21 PM.
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  #4154  
Old 07-07-2020, 03:31 PM
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Originally Posted by GregD View Post
OTA is a paradigm changer for cars. With other manufacturers' cars, you get the cars as delivered and that's it. You have to wait until the next model year to see if they make any improvements, and then if you want those improvements, you have to buy a new car. Tesla has turned that notion on its head to the benefit of the consumer.

Here's just a partial list of the improvements that my car has received via OTA updates since I bought it 19 months ago, all at no cost.
- 2 power improvements of about 5% each
- improved charging rates at Superchargers, first from 120kWh to 150kWh, and then from 150kWh to 250kWh
- Voice control of almost all car functions, initially it was only for navigation and media control
- Sentry mode to make video recordings of those who get too close to the car
- Built-in dashcam with viewer
- Pet mode to allow climate control to run with pets in the car
- Substantially improved auto-pilot operation
- One pedal driving mode

Actually, here's a link to someone who compiled a list of OTA updates.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...dHc/edit#gid=0

As for actual physical parts, Tesla is the same as any other car.

As mentioned it wasn't ready when it was released to production. What held them back implementing the features above before they started selling them?

I hope others won't follow on starting production with half baked cars. Problem is when one cheats others fall behind by playing it fair.
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  #4155  
Old 07-07-2020, 03:47 PM
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Originally Posted by acoste View Post
As mentioned it wasn't ready when it was released to production. What held them back implementing the features above before they started selling them?

I hope others won't follow on starting production with half baked cars. Problem is when one cheats others fall behind by playing it fair.
By that definition, all cars are half baked as delivered, from any manufacturer, since all cars can be improved. In fact, all products of any kind by anybody are "half baked". What makes Teslas different from most cars is that a lot more of their operation is controlled by computer. As a result, the possibilities for improvement via software updates are much more extensive than most cars.
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  #4156  
Old 07-08-2020, 09:52 AM
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As for actual physical parts, Tesla is the same as any other car.
Munro picked on Model 3's physical parts(unfortunately no detailed teardown series like Model Y), and specifically pointed out why they(rear unibody(?), wheel well, bolts, etc, etc) are subpar.

These physical parts stay with the car. Specifically, the chassis related parts cannot be easily fixed without teardown.

Model Y appears to be improving.
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  #4157  
Old 07-08-2020, 10:09 AM
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Originally Posted by GregD View Post
Here's just a partial list of the improvements that my car has received via OTA updates since I bought it 19 months ago, all at no cost.
- 2 power improvements of about 5% each
- improved charging rates at Superchargers, first from 120kWh to 150kWh, and then from 150kWh to 250kWh
- Voice control of almost all car functions, initially it was only for navigation and media control
- Sentry mode to make video recordings of those who get too close to the car
- Built-in dashcam with viewer
- Pet mode to allow climate control to run with pets in the car
- Substantially improved auto-pilot operation
- One pedal driving mode
OTA, or software updates, are bread and butter of tech companies. Some automakers picked up that practice long before Tesla, but allegedly bricked the cars(Cadillac CUE?) in the process.

In general the above Model 3 OTA lists look like feature lists that couldn't be delivered at initial rollout, so engineers gradually caught up and pushed out the features(similar to iPhone/Android/Windows).

This tactic also nicely masks software-based SIB/recall/bug fixes while customers are dazzled by extra goodies.
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  #4158  
Old 07-08-2020, 11:50 AM
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Originally Posted by namelessman View Post
Munro picked on Model 3's physical parts(unfortunately no detailed teardown series like Model Y), and specifically pointed out why they(rear unibody(?), wheel well, bolts, etc, etc) are subpar.

These physical parts stay with the car. Specifically, the chassis related parts cannot be easily fixed without teardown.

Model Y appears to be improving.
And Munro found other physical parts of the Model 3 to be superior. All cars have some better parts and some worse parts. That is why there is so much competition. If someone ever built the perfect car, no one else would be able to compete.

Also, regarding the rear unibody on the Model 3, Munro didn't have any complaint about it functioning properly or being strong enough. His complaints were that it was overly expensive to produce and heavier than it needed to be. It's not like say e36 and e46 rear unibodies that have a tendency to crack. I consider a tendency for the unibody to crack, as being far more subpar than being difficult to manufacture and a little heavy.

Last edited by GregD; 07-08-2020 at 12:02 PM.
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  #4159  
Old 07-08-2020, 12:01 PM
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Originally Posted by namelessman View Post
OTA, or software updates, are bread and butter of tech companies. Some automakers picked up that practice long before Tesla, but allegedly bricked the cars(Cadillac CUE?) in the process.

In general the above Model 3 OTA lists look like feature lists that couldn't be delivered at initial rollout, so engineers gradually caught up and pushed out the features(similar to iPhone/Android/Windows).
Feature lists not being able to be delivered at initial rollout is the case with every car ever produced. Car manufacturers, other than Tesla, rarely, if ever, make any of the new features available on their previously produced cars. Part of it is undoubtedly intended to create additional incentive for customers to buy a new car every couple of years due to planned obsolescence. They do this even if the hardware itself wouldn't need to be changed to implement the new feature(s).

Tesla is taking a tech company type approach, as you noted, and making it work. Since Tesla made the decision to not build planned obsolescence into their cars, they were able to design them to allow much more future upgradeability than other car manufacturers. No other car manufacturer to date has made a significant effort to really make OTA work, and I think it's unlikely that they will until they don't have a choice. Whether they have a choice or not will depend on Tesla's future success, since they are the only competition out there really using OTA updates in a significant fashion.
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  #4160  
Old 07-08-2020, 12:11 PM
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And Munro found other physical parts of the Model 3 to be superior. All cars have some better parts and some worse parts. That is why there is so much competition. If someone ever built the perfect car, no one else would be able to compete.

Also, regarding the rear unibody on the Model 3, Munro didn't have any complaint about it functioning properly or being strong enough. His complaints were that it was overly expensive to produce and heavier than it needed to be. It's not like say e36 and e46 rear unibodies that have a tendency to crack. I consider a tendency for the unibody to crack, as being far more subpar than being difficult to manufacture and a little heavy.
Yeah, that subframe cracking is horrible. Usually seen on cars of 10+ years old, rather 15.

Meanwhile Tesla doesn't have issues with delivering cracked new cars

https://www.thedrive.com/tech/9093/b...acked-a-pillar

But weldings don't hold for long either

https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/thre...acking.100798/

#safestcar
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  #4161  
Old 07-08-2020, 12:28 PM
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Yeah, that subframe cracking is horrible. Usually seen on cars of 10+ years old, rather 15.

Meanwhile Tesla doesn't have issues with delivering cracked new cars

https://www.thedrive.com/tech/9093/b...acked-a-pillar

But weldings don't hold for long either

https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/thre...acking.100798/

#safestcar
Oh please, every car company has occasional problems where a few cars aren't made properly, which is what you gave examples of with Tesla. It's rare for it to be a design problem and for the problem to be so bad that they have to issue a recall on many thousands of cars as BMW had to do with e36s and e46s. I think it's safe to say that BMW has had far more structural unibody problems than Tesla.

P.S. I initially received the recall notice on my 330i when it was 7 years old.

Last edited by GregD; 07-08-2020 at 12:30 PM.
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  #4162  
Old 07-08-2020, 01:08 PM
namelessman namelessman is offline
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Oh please, every car company has occasional problems where a few cars aren't made properly, which is what you gave examples of with Tesla. It's rare for it to be a design problem and for the problem to be so bad that they have to issue a recall on many thousands of cars as BMW had to do with e36s and e46s. I think it's safe to say that BMW has had far more structural unibody problems than Tesla.

P.S. I initially received the recall notice on my 330i when it was 7 years old.
There is hardly any fester complaints about cracked frame and subpar welds fresh from BMW factories though.

The E46 rear subframe issues seem to be undiagnosed worn rear subframe bushings with miles/age/spirited driving that eventually lead to floorboard taking loads that are out-of-spec.

http://speed.academy/bmw-e46-cracked-subframe-fix/

That's very different from cracks on sheet metal and welds right off the Tesla factory with no wear and tear.

And most Model 3's are still relatively new. With the kind of Model 3 unibody issues mentioned by Munro, it is yet to be seen if any real issue will materialize with miles and age.
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  #4163  
Old 07-08-2020, 01:44 PM
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There is hardly any fester complaints about cracked frame and subpar welds fresh from BMW factories though.
And there's "hardly any" complaints about cracked frames or defective welds fresh from Tesla factories either. If you want to see complaints about cracked frames or defective welds fresh from the factory, check out 2018-2019 Jeep Wranglers.

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Originally Posted by namelessman View Post
The E46 rear subframe issues seem to be undiagnosed worn rear subframe bushings with miles/age/spirited driving that eventually lead to floorboard taking loads that are out-of-spec.

http://speed.academy/bmw-e46-cracked-subframe-fix/
Um, your link says the following, in the first paragraph.
Quote:
But the rear subframe issue is the real Achilles heel of the E46. And it has nothing to do with how modified the car is. I've seen it on unmodified cars, early models, late models, low mileage, and high mileage. Every E46 I've seen has this problem. And the s***ty thing is to fully check a car, you have to remove everything in the rear, so you might as well repair it while you have the subframe and all out. Which means if your car hasn't had this done, you will be doing it.
Also, if it were just due to worn bushings or spirited driving, BMW wouldn't have had to issue a recall.

Quote:
Originally Posted by namelessman View Post
That's very different from cracks on sheet metal and welds right off the Tesla factory with no wear and tear.

And most Model 3's are still relatively new. With the kind of Model 3 unibody issues mentioned by Munro, it is yet to be seen if any real issue will materialize with miles and age.
If anything, Munro was saying that the rear unibody on the Model 3 was overbuilt, so I think it's quite unlikely that Model 3s will have the problems with the rear unibody that the E46s have suffered.
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  #4164  
Old 07-08-2020, 03:19 PM
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Um, your link says the following, in the first paragraph.
Also, if it were just due to worn bushings or spirited driving, BMW wouldn't have had to issue a recall.
That guy doesn't sound credible. Right after that sentence he says every E46 he saw had this issue. Yeah. Maybe mine too which is well past 200k mi, must be an invisible issue then. Since I don't see any cracks.
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  #4165  
Old 07-08-2020, 03:38 PM
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That guy doesn't sound credible. Right after that sentence he says every E46 he saw had this issue. Yeah. Maybe mine too which is well past 200k mi, must be an invisible issue then. Since I don't see any cracks.
It was namelessman's link. I tend to question it as well since I have 150k on my car and haven't noticed any issues. That said, if it's small cracks, it probably wouldn't be noticeable from a driving perspective, and as the guy said, to find those small cracks would require removing the rear subframe, a not trivial job.

In any case, the rear unibody cracking on E46s is common enough that I think it is apparent that BMW under designed it. The reality is that most cars have some design flaws, hopefully not as difficult or expensive to fix as the E46 unibody.

Last edited by GregD; 07-08-2020 at 03:40 PM.
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  #4166  
Old 07-08-2020, 05:07 PM
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And there's "hardly any" complaints about cracked frames or defective welds fresh from Tesla factories either. If you want to see complaints about cracked frames or defective welds fresh from the factory, check out 2018-2019 Jeep Wranglers.
acoste's links from post#4160 show complaints of visible weld and cracked frames on pretty new Tesla.

In contrast, and "hardly any" similar fester complaints on BMWs from BMW factory, as in "almost none".

If there are such complaints please share the links, it would be of interest to read about those.
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  #4167  
Old 07-08-2020, 05:23 PM
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It was namelessman's link. I tend to question it as well since I have 150k on my car and haven't noticed any issues. That said, if it's small cracks, it probably wouldn't be noticeable from a driving perspective, and as the guy said, to find those small cracks would require removing the rear subframe, a not trivial job.

In any case, the rear unibody cracking on E46s is common enough that I think it is apparent that BMW under designed it. The reality is that most cars have some design flaws, hopefully not as difficult or expensive to fix as the E46 unibody.
Once again the honest BMW owners that keep BMW honest, maybe the Tesla owners should do the same and keep Tesla honest.

The kinds of visible frame/weld/unibody design flaws of Tesla are not cheap to fix, and as Munro showed, Tesla did eventually fix them, in Model Y!

The one advantage of Model 3 is its 1000-pound frame brace aka battery pack, maybe that is enough to compensate for any other frame/unibody related issues.
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  #4168  
Old 07-08-2020, 05:26 PM
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That guy doesn't sound credible. Right after that sentence he says every E46 he saw had this issue. Yeah. Maybe mine too which is well past 200k mi, must be an invisible issue then. Since I don't see any cracks.
Were your E46 rear subframe bushings replaced, or are they still factory parts?
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  #4169  
Old 07-08-2020, 05:37 PM
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acoste's links from post#4160 show complaints of visible weld and cracked frames on pretty new Tesla.
2 links. Where are the hundreds or thousands of complaints? Where is the recall?
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Originally Posted by namelessman View Post
In contrast, and "hardly any" similar fester complaints on BMWs from BMW factory, as in "almost none".

If there are such complaints please share the links, it would be of interest to read about those.
Oh please, get real. There was a frickin' recall for the E46 unibody. Do you think that manufacturers like BMW issue recalls for just a few complaints? Stop being so ridiculous.
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  #4170  
Old 07-08-2020, 05:43 PM
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Once again the honest BMW owners that keep BMW honest, maybe the Tesla owners should do the same and keep Tesla honest.

The kinds of visible frame/weld/unibody design flaws of Tesla are not cheap to fix, and as Munro showed, Tesla did eventually fix them, in Model Y!

The one advantage of Model 3 is its 1000-pound frame brace aka battery pack, maybe that is enough to compensate for any other frame/unibody related issues.
Munro didn't show any "frame/weld/unibody design flaws" that would require repair. There was no fix required. He just pointed out what was poor from a cost and manufacturing efficiency standpoint.

Do you really understand as little about design and manufacturing as your posts here would seem to indicate? Do you not understand what a manufacturing engineer and consultant like Sandy Munro does?
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  #4171  
Old 07-08-2020, 06:02 PM
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Were your E46 rear subframe bushings replaced, or are they still factory parts?
Still factory bushings.

This cracking issue happens to manuals and M3s. Rare to see them on automatics as these latter build up the torque smoother.
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  #4172  
Old 07-08-2020, 06:05 PM
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2 links. Where are the hundreds or thousands of complaints? Where is the recall?

Oh please, get real. There was a frickin' recall for the E46 unibody. Do you think that manufacturers like BMW issue recalls for just a few complaints? Stop being so ridiculous.
Tesla got away with many things without recalls. Battery issue is a clear example of that. Model 3 missing/loose suspension bolts. I guess this latter stayed under the radar because there aren't many independent Tesla repair shops.
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Old 07-08-2020, 06:54 PM
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2 links. Where are the hundreds or thousands of complaints? Where is the recall?

Oh please, get real. There was a frickin' recall for the E46 unibody. Do you think that manufacturers like BMW issue recalls for just a few complaints? Stop being so ridiculous.
Your expertise to mix two different statements together into one demonstrates unparalleled finesse and deceit.

Again, the lack of recall of frame cracks on brand new Tesla, should not be of comfort to any Tesla owner.

On the other hand, complaint of frame cracks on brand new BMW's is unheard of on BF. If there is any(BF or others) please forward the link.
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  #4174  
Old 07-08-2020, 07:10 PM
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Munro didn't show any "frame/weld/unibody design flaws" that would require repair. There was no fix required. He just pointed out what was poor from a cost and manufacturing efficiency standpoint.

Do you really understand as little about design and manufacturing as your posts here would seem to indicate? Do you not understand what a manufacturing engineer and consultant like Sandy Munro does?
It is convenient to categorize issues uncovered by Munro as just "poor from a cost and manufacturing efficiency standpoint", but let's assume that is the case.

Combined those alleged cost and manufacturing issues with cracked frames on brand new Tesla fresh from factory creates a new class of problems that honest Tesla owners should ponder on.
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  #4175  
Old 07-08-2020, 07:19 PM
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Still factory bushings.

This cracking issue happens to manuals and M3s. Rare to see them on automatics as these latter build up the torque smoother.
The link of post#4162 seems to be a track rat bunch that may encounter E46 MT's/M3's that are driven far and hard, non-spirited driving probably does not stress out rear sub-frame bushing and floorboards as much.

BTW E39 MT's/M5's have engine mount issues(e.g. V8) that show up more on hard-driven cars than hardly pushed ones.
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