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  #26  
Old 07-10-2018, 04:08 PM
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Originally Posted by KingpenM3 View Post
Well hell. Now I'm not sure what I should do. My '16 M3 is coming off of lease in November, and I only have 11000 miles on it. I was planning on keeping this car forever, but I can't justify paying full retail on the car as if it had the full 30000 miles that the lease allowed.

I'm in the same boat. My 2016 M3 RV is 64% I was hoping to buy it at market value at lease end which should be about 50% of MSRP. But now BMW wants me to pay 64% of MSRP minus a token discount.

Last edited by bzcat; 07-10-2018 at 04:10 PM.
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  #27  
Old 07-10-2018, 04:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Alpine300ZHP View Post
This is spot on. For some people, the RV will be close to market value and, for those people, buying out the lease will still make sense if that is what they wish to do. This scenario is most likely to happen on F80s since they are currently BMWs best car for value retention.


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The M cars usually don't have aggressive lease subsidies, and their RVs usually are close to FMVs.
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  #28  
Old 07-10-2018, 05:06 PM
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I'm in the same boat. My 2016 M3 RV is 64% I was hoping to buy it at market value at lease end which should be about 50% of MSRP. But now BMW wants me to pay 64% of MSRP minus a token discount.
So your complaint is that you enjoyed an artificially low lease payment for 3 years because the residual was set at a level that did not reflect the likely market price at the end of the term, and you are upset that they don't want to take a financial loss by eating that difference and want you to pay the price you agreed to when you signed the lease contract?

Would you feel better if your lease payment was $300+ a month higher but when the lease came up the buyout was at market value?

Even if they make it so you have to pay RV for the car, the benefit is still in your favor if you have the inflated RV. You commit less overall funds, enjoy a lower payment, pay less in interest costs and at the end can choose to pay the full price of the car when you bought it, or walk away. Even though at that point the RV is less than the market value, you aren't "overpaying" relative to the original cost of the vehicle. Comparing the RV to the market value at a point in time is arbitrary.
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  #29  
Old 07-10-2018, 05:22 PM
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Most of you guys are pretty clever, there are a lot of ways around this issue if you'll extend a little effort. Several past threads have dealt with this and offer concrete examples, I'm one of them.
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  #30  
Old 07-10-2018, 05:42 PM
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Even with those subsidized leases, unless you were in a high tax bracket and can sneak a BMW lease in as a business expense, it was still cheaper to buy and keep a car six, seven, eight years. Now, it will be even more so.

Thus why I'm considering a 2020 M8 for my next ED to deduct the entire lease payment, counterbalance will be a personal F95 (G05 X5M) lease. No benifit of being a w-2 employee these days.
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Old 07-10-2018, 05:59 PM
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Originally Posted by KingpenM3 View Post
Well hell. Now I'm not sure what I should do. My '16 M3 is coming off of lease in November, and I only have 11000 miles on it. I was planning on keeping this car forever, but I can't justify paying full retail on the car as if it had the full 30000 miles that the lease allowed.





What was your thought process in 2015? As the low lease payment was a low barrier to entry into the M club. BMW FS is wising up by holding firm to end of lease buyouts. I don't fault this business model. Purchasing end of lease will be now be a no-brainer decision, as long term ownership will be finance- but has a higher monthly payment compared to lease.
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  #32  
Old 07-10-2018, 06:17 PM
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Big Changes in lease buyout pricing

Quote:
Originally Posted by CTSoxFan View Post
So your complaint is that you enjoyed an artificially low lease payment for 3 years because the residual was set at a level that did not reflect the likely market price at the end of the term, and you are upset that they don't want to take a financial loss by eating that difference and want you to pay the price you agreed to when you signed the lease contract?

Would you feel better if your lease payment was $300+ a month higher but when the lease came up the buyout was at market value?

Even if they make it so you have to pay RV for the car, the benefit is still in your favor if you have the inflated RV. You commit less overall funds, enjoy a lower payment, pay less in interest costs and at the end can choose to pay the full price of the car when you bought it, or walk away. Even though at that point the RV is less than the market value, you aren't "overpaying" relative to the original cost of the vehicle. Comparing the RV to the market value at a point in time is arbitrary.


Convoluted logic at best. The issue at hand is that a person could purchase the exact same car for a significant amount less than the RV of his/her lease turn in. Why would any sane person pay more?


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  #33  
Old 07-10-2018, 06:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Lennysx5 View Post
Convoluted logic at best. The issue at hand is that a person could purchase the exact same car for a significant amount less than the RV of his/her lease turn in. Why would any sane person pay more?


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It depends on the situation. If it is like Greg pointed out and a 33% delta on a common car like a 3 series, then obviously they wouldn't. If the spread is closer then you might (depending on factors like availability of a similar car, comfort in knowing the car's history, etc.).

My point was that the quoted post was hoping to have BMW eat the spread that he enjoyed between the utilized residual and the market value, and although they may have in the past things change, and oh by the way he benefited in multiple ways from it already.
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  #34  
Old 07-10-2018, 06:54 PM
Greg @ East Bay BMW Greg @ East Bay BMW is offline
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Originally Posted by namelessman View Post
When the lease return is sold back to dealer, can the lessee still returns to purchase after, say, 2 weeks? Or the original lessee can never buy it back regardless of how long the car sits on the lot?
It will flag if it re-registers under the same person.
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  #35  
Old 07-10-2018, 07:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Greg @ East Bay BMW View Post
Just had this happen to me today.

Customer wanted to buy his 3 Series.

RV is $33k

Market Value is 22k

Needless to say I didn't make a sale today.

Greg
Whats going to be even worse is, if that person actually just turned that car in, and you guys turn around and put it on the lot for a price that your customer cant buy it for.. even when looking at it on the lot.

Unless you have a very friendly customer, or have a long relationship with them, its going to be hard to explain that in a way that would make sense to the average person. I hope that doesnt happen to you, greg.
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  #36  
Old 07-10-2018, 08:08 PM
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Whats going to be even worse is, if that person actually just turned that car in, and you guys turn around and put it on the lot for a price that your customer cant buy it for.. even when looking at it on the lot.

Unless you have a very friendly customer, or have a long relationship with them, its going to be hard to explain that in a way that would make sense to the average person. I hope that doesnt happen to you, greg.
I smell some lawsuits... if a good is for sale and advertised for a certain price and I come in with my checkbook, (I know we're dealing with car dealers here ) you have to honor that price.

Unless the lease contract I signed includes the fine print saying I'm not allowed to buy the same VIN number back after I return the car and close out the lease, I don't see how a dealer can explain this to a customer without them thinking some shady stuff is going down.
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  #37  
Old 07-10-2018, 08:29 PM
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Originally Posted by ted8715 View Post
I smell some lawsuits... if a good is for sale and advertised for a certain price and I come in with my checkbook, (I know we're dealing with car dealers here ) you have to honor that price.

Unless the lease contract I signed includes the fine print saying I'm not allowed to buy the same VIN number back after I return the car and close out the lease, I don't see how a dealer can explain this to a customer without them thinking some shady stuff is going down.
My thinking is that the lease document says the RV is the buyout price of that VIN, so even on the lot price is reduced, the lessee still needs to pay buyout price.
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  #38  
Old 07-10-2018, 08:33 PM
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My thinking is that the lease document says the RV is the buyout price of that VIN, so even on the lot price is reduced, the lessee still needs to pay buyout price.
That would be my guess too, but I am not a lawyer (and did not stay in a holiday inn express last night).
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  #39  
Old 07-10-2018, 08:41 PM
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That would be my guess too, but I am not a lawyer (and did not stay in a holiday inn express last night).
I'm not a lawyer either, but I do work in regulatory affairs and with a lot of lawyers. Once the car is turned in, I've fulfilled the contract and I would think I'm no longer subject to it's terms, unless of course there are terms agreed to that outlive the turn it. As this is a new policy, it's unlikely there are terms covering this in the contract I signed over two years ago.

Quote:
Originally Posted by namelessman View Post
My thinking is that the lease document says the RV is the buyout price of that VIN, so even on the lot price is reduced, the lessee still needs to pay buyout price.
The contract says I have the option to buy the vehicle at the RV at lease end, or anytime during the lease. I also have the option to turn the car in, pay any applicable penalties and fees and walk away. It doesn't say I'm not allowed to buy the car at a later date for a lesser amount.

Last edited by ted8715; 07-10-2018 at 08:46 PM. Reason: expanded my position
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  #40  
Old 07-10-2018, 09:24 PM
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Originally Posted by ted8715 View Post
The contract says I have the option to buy the vehicle at the RV at lease end, or anytime during the lease. I also have the option to turn the car in, pay any applicable penalties and fees and walk away. It doesn't say I'm not allowed to buy the car at a later date for a lesser amount.
The BMWFS/BMWNA lawyers probably have analyzed this to death.

In a way, loyalty incentive says a previous customer can get a discount.

Similarly, the BMWFS/BMWNA policy says the original lessee can be charged a surcharge(RV minus on-the-lot sales price) through the dealer, unless dealer agrees to pay the surcharge themselves.

Last edited by namelessman; 07-10-2018 at 09:26 PM.
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  #41  
Old 07-10-2018, 09:55 PM
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The BMWFS/BMWNA lawyers probably have analyzed this to death.
BMW is a just functional enough corporation, like all corporation made up of people, so I have little faith. BMW did just roll back the July money factor raise (0.00187) to 0.00166 so they make mistakes, misjudgments.

Quote:
Originally Posted by namelessman View Post
In a way, loyalty incentive says a previous customer can get a discount.
True, but couldn't you refuse the loyalty credit?

Quote:
Originally Posted by namelessman View Post
Similarly, the BMWFS/BMWNA policy says the original lessee can be charged a surcharge(RV minus on-the-lot sales price) through the dealer, unless dealer agrees to pay the surcharge themselves.
Maybe, but I just fail to see how this can apply to lease agreements signed in the past. When I signed my lease contract, my options at lease end are to buy my car for the RV or turn it in. AFAIK, after turn in the legal relationship between BMW and Myself is done. So, theoretically I could track down my car wherever it ended up and buy it for what ever price it was listed it at. But now, BMW is saying, there are more stipulations to a lease turn in and walk away situation, but these terms are not in my contract.
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  #42  
Old 07-10-2018, 10:42 PM
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Originally Posted by ted8715 View Post
Maybe, but I just fail to see how this can apply to lease agreements signed in the past. When I signed my lease contract, my options at lease end are to buy my car for the RV or turn it in. AFAIK, after turn in the legal relationship between BMW and Myself is done. So, theoretically I could track down my car wherever it ended up and buy it for what ever price it was listed it at. But now, BMW is saying, there are more stipulations to a lease turn in and walk away situation, but these terms are not in my contract.
My thinking is that BMWFS/BMWNA can provide incentives based on past relationship with BMW, e.g. customers that own BMW in last 12 months.

BWMFS/BMWNA can also impose surcharges based on past relationship, e.g. original lessee of the same VIN.
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  #43  
Old 07-10-2018, 11:03 PM
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My thinking is that BMWFS/BMWNA can provide incentives based on past relationship with BMW, e.g. customers that own BMW in last 12 months.

BWMFS/BMWNA can also impose surcharges based on past relationship, e.g. original lessee of the same VIN.
I don't disagree, that logic holds. Also, they can do whatever they want, but it doesn't mean they might not lose a legal challenge or change their tune if faced with one.

As for my opinion, I feel this is a blatantly customer hostile policy that I find frustrating as someone who loves the brand and the cars. The more I follow the business side of BMW, and at the end of the day it's just a business to make money for shareholders, it takes some of the fun out of cars for me.

Leasing has turned out to be more of a roller coaster ride than I imaged.
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  #44  
Old 07-11-2018, 12:39 AM
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Originally Posted by ted8715 View Post
Leasing has turned out to be more of a roller coaster ride than I imaged.
Leasing has not been a darling of BMW customers until the lease subsidies rolled in with ZIRP and cheap money. BMWNA/BMWFS is now reverting to norm, and BMW customers readjust to new(or good old) landscape.
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  #45  
Old 07-11-2018, 07:10 AM
Alpine300ZHP Alpine300ZHP is offline
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Originally Posted by namelessman View Post
The M cars usually don't have aggressive lease subsidies, and their RVs usually are close to FMVs.


Lately, Ms get same RV as the underlying model. So M3 is same as 340.


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  #46  
Old 07-11-2018, 07:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Alpine300ZHP View Post
Lately, Ms get same RV as the underlying model. So M3 is same as 340.


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This is true, but they (M3s in particular) are currently holding value much better than the underlying base model, so the RV on an M car is closer to being a true RV than the underlying model, at least in my opinion.

People with current M3 leases would likely not have received a price under the RV anyway, unless the car was far over the miles. In fact, the person with the M3 that was only 11k miles or something likely would be able to sell the car to carmax or something and make a bit of money rather than turning it in, so this would not affect them at all (my opinion ).
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  #47  
Old 07-11-2018, 08:57 AM
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It will flag if it re-registers under the same person.
Or even the same household/address?
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  #48  
Old 07-11-2018, 09:25 AM
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Originally Posted by hooligan_clt View Post
Or even the same household/address?
This was on a recent quote to purchase my car at lease end: "If this VIN is sold back to the same customer or household, or to a business related party, then a $500 charge will be billed in addition to the difference between the Standard Option A Quote (Center price) and the Customer Purchase Quote"

The lease on my 2015 M235i is up in September. The price I received before and after this change results in a near $6k higher purchase price than before the change.
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  #49  
Old 07-11-2018, 11:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Vitacura View Post
This was on a recent quote to purchase my car at lease end: "If this VIN is sold back to the same customer or household, or to a business related party, then a $500 charge will be billed in addition to the difference between the Standard Option A Quote (Center price) and the Customer Purchase Quote"

The lease on my 2015 M235i is up in September. The price I received before and after this change results in a near $6k higher purchase price.
I saw that exact verbiage as well.
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  #50  
Old 07-11-2018, 12:41 PM
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This was on a recent quote to purchase my car at lease end: "If this VIN is sold back to the same customer or household, or to a business related party, then a $500 charge will be billed in addition to the difference between the Standard Option A Quote (Center price) and the Customer Purchase Quote"

The lease on my 2015 M235i is up in September. The price I received before and after this change results in a near $6k higher purchase price.
Yowza. $6K?



BMW has to be banking on the fact that current lessees would rather lease another new car vs. buying used/CPO, as others have surmised, otherwise this makes no sense.

The dealer can sell it to CustomerB for whatever price they deem worthwhile for their work, but they can't sell it to CustomerA (original lessee) for that same price. It's definitely a roll of the dice, I'm not sure it will pay off in the way they want it to, but I've been wrong before.
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