Owners Choice Return in IL - Page 2 - Bimmerfest - BMW Forums



Go Back   Bimmerfest - BMW Forums > BMW Buyers Guide - Dealers, resources, pricing, tips and trick > Ask-A-BMW-Dealer

Ask-A-BMW-Dealer
Talk to our team of BMW Client Advisors from supporting BMW dealerships. Get all of your BMW pricing, ordering, buying, financing, and leasing questions answered here!

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #26  
Old 02-24-2016, 05:21 PM
greginchi's Avatar
greginchi greginchi is offline
Go Hawks!
Location: Chicago
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 228
Mein Auto: 2017 M3
Quote:
Originally Posted by untitledfolder View Post
Haven't closed the deal yet!

If I put down $0 on the OC, the OC payment seemed to be about the same as max MSD's on a lease given the crazy Chicago lease use tax. I know before the law change it was even worse...

I figured if I were putting down MSD's vs a financing down payment anyway, I'd rather have the lower monthly payment for it. I was trying to stay under the $600/month threshold for what I consider a weekend driving/grocery getter toy (and to keep the wife happy).

Sorta what Gaviin is saying here:

http://www.2addicts.com/forums/showp...48&postcount=2

from this thread:

http://www.2addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=975828

I think I'll also get a tax credit when I trade-in at the end of my OC?
Well, if payment is your key parameter I'd make sure to see what payment is with out of pocket (not counting MSDs) the same for both scenarios. Have him run that OC sheet with only 434 out of your pocket instead of 5000.

I mean very simply you are paying almost 5K which you won't get back just to have a payment 65 a month lower (2340 savings over term)...is payment really that important? At least the sheets have total paid out of pocket at top so you can tell what deal is better.
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #27  
Old 02-24-2016, 05:36 PM
untitledfolder untitledfolder is offline
Registered User
Location: Chi
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 32
Mein Auto: MINI
Quote:
Originally Posted by greginchi View Post
For example on your OC deal...price of 49405 plus 9.5% should be gross cap of 54098 but your sheet says 54538 so 439 difference there for some reason.

On lease I have no idea why taxes are being added to the cap? I see acq fee was added in but why do upfront sales tax? And cash down tax? Why not just pay as a function of payment?

This is all one big reason to never make a decision on payment...need to really understand all components because dealer will dork with things to make their story seem better.

They added the doc/title/filing fee into the 49405 + tax to get the remaining $439 difference on the OC.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 02-24-2016, 05:38 PM
greginchi's Avatar
greginchi greginchi is offline
Go Hawks!
Location: Chicago
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 228
Mein Auto: 2017 M3
Quote:
Originally Posted by untitledfolder View Post
They added the doc/title/filing fee into the 49405 + tax to get the remaining $439 difference on the OC.
Got it.

As engineer/sales guy I just like to understand every number and be able to calculate myself before signing anything...and payment is secondary to the 'deal' I'm getting...on cap, MF, etc.
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #29  
Old 02-24-2016, 05:39 PM
Arciga18 Arciga18 is offline
Ekon Hitman
Location: Chicago
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 438
Mein Auto: 2011 E90 RWD and 2018 G01
Quote:
Originally Posted by greginchi View Post
Well, if payment is your key parameter I'd make sure to see what payment is with out of pocket (not counting MSDs) the same for both scenarios. Have him run that OC sheet with only 434 out of your pocket instead of 5000.

I mean very simply you are paying almost 5K which you won't get back just to have a payment 65 a month lower (2340 savings over term)...is payment really that important? At least the sheets have total paid out of pocket at top so you can tell what deal is better.

So we've talked about the different amount of tax paid with each deal, but
They way the deals are structured will also result in different finance/rent charges.

On the OC, he will be paying interest in the entire loan amount. ~4/5 % APR on $50K will add up very fast. It is my understanding that the BASE OC rate is the same as the base money factor. However, every single time I got a quote the dealers would mark it up ::: base apr + 1 %. My credit score was not issue. It was the greedy finance guys.

With the lease, he will pay rent on the depreciation spread over the lease term. The MSD is effectively lowering the rent charge.

Last edited by Arciga18; 02-24-2016 at 05:40 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 02-24-2016, 05:40 PM
untitledfolder untitledfolder is offline
Registered User
Location: Chi
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 32
Mein Auto: MINI
Quote:
Originally Posted by greginchi View Post
On lease I have no idea why taxes are being added to the cap? I see acq fee was added in but why do upfront sales tax? And cash down tax? Why not just pay as a function of payment?
I thought these were added under the Itemization of Gross Capital Cost. I'm not sure what the cash down tax is, since I was only putting down MSD's with it.
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old 02-24-2016, 05:44 PM
untitledfolder untitledfolder is offline
Registered User
Location: Chi
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 32
Mein Auto: MINI
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arciga18 View Post
So we've talked about the different amount of tax paid with each deal, but
They way the deals are structured will also result in different finance/rent charges.

On the OC, he will be paying interest in the entire loan amount. ~4/5 % APR on $50K will add up very fast. It is my understanding that the BASE OC rate is the same as the base money factor. However, every single time I got a quote the dealers would mark it up ::: base apr + 1 %. My credit score was not issue. It was the greedy finance guys.

With the lease, he will pay rent on the depreciation spread over the lease term. The MSD is effectively lowering the rent charge.
Tried to lower the APR, but they wouldn't budge and neither would another dealer... in my other thread about this deal that Ninong kindly chimed in on, he thought maybe I could haggle down to 3.75% but it might not be worth it?

https://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...20&postcount=7
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 02-24-2016, 05:44 PM
greginchi's Avatar
greginchi greginchi is offline
Go Hawks!
Location: Chicago
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 228
Mein Auto: 2017 M3
So for lease it looks like acq plus taxes over term equal around 5023 and on OC tax is 5133...so about same...comes down to rates then I guess. Buy rate MF with MSD is like 1.92%...have to figure out OC rate...

Last edited by greginchi; 02-24-2016 at 05:45 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 02-24-2016, 05:47 PM
greginchi's Avatar
greginchi greginchi is offline
Go Hawks!
Location: Chicago
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 228
Mein Auto: 2017 M3
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arciga18 View Post
So we've talked about the different amount of tax paid with each deal, but
They way the deals are structured will also result in different finance/rent charges.

On the OC, he will be paying interest in the entire loan amount. ~4/5 % APR on $50K will add up very fast. It is my understanding that the BASE OC rate is the same as the base money factor. However, every single time I got a quote the dealers would mark it up ::: base apr + 1 %. My credit score was not issue. It was the greedy finance guys.

With the lease, he will pay rent on the depreciation spread over the lease term. The MSD is effectively lowering the rent charge.
Yeah, looks like lease deal taxes plus the acq is close to tax paid on OC. So it does come down to financing side.

Hence why I say he should have dealer run sheets on both scenarios with same out of pocket (not counting MSDs as out of pocket since he will get back).
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 02-24-2016, 05:50 PM
Arciga18 Arciga18 is offline
Ekon Hitman
Location: Chicago
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 438
Mein Auto: 2011 E90 RWD and 2018 G01
Quote:
Originally Posted by greginchi View Post
So for lease it looks like acq plus taxes over term equal around 5023 and on OC tax is 5133...so about same...comes down to rates then I guess. Buy rate MF with MSD is like 1.92%...have to figure out OC rate...

The APR on the OC with the numbers provided is 4.22x%
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 02-24-2016, 05:53 PM
Arciga18 Arciga18 is offline
Ekon Hitman
Location: Chicago
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 438
Mein Auto: 2011 E90 RWD and 2018 G01
Quote:
Originally Posted by untitledfolder View Post
Tried to lower the APR, but they wouldn't budge and neither would another dealer... in my other thread about this deal that Ninong kindly chimed in on, he thought maybe I could haggle down to 3.75% but it might not be worth it?

https://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...20&postcount=7
NINONG is the man. I don't know him but his advice is pretty Spot On.
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 02-24-2016, 05:53 PM
untitledfolder untitledfolder is offline
Registered User
Location: Chi
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 32
Mein Auto: MINI
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arciga18 View Post
You should give Anthony a shot at your business (Elmhurst BMW). He is a newer board sponsor here. I've met him a few times (including the Auto show) and he is a total car guy. I don't know how much pull he has with Elmhurst BMW Management as far as pricing, but he's the only Illinois sponsor I know since Irv Robinson got out of the game.

[email protected]
Already put a deposit in unfortunately, but thank you for the referral. Maybe next time!
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 02-24-2016, 06:04 PM
untitledfolder untitledfolder is offline
Registered User
Location: Chi
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 32
Mein Auto: MINI
Quote:
Originally Posted by greginchi View Post
Yeah, looks like lease deal taxes plus the acq is close to tax paid on OC. So it does come down to financing side.

Hence why I say he should have dealer run sheets on both scenarios with same out of pocket (not counting MSDs as out of pocket since he will get back).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arciga18 View Post
The APR on the OC with the numbers provided is 4.22x%
Thanks to you both for digging into this with me. It gives me something more to chew on before I sign paperwork for the order. In my mind I really didn't want to pay Chicago's ridiculous use tax, and I read threads on like this one that made putting money down on OC not sound like a bad idea vs the universally bad idea of money down (not MSD) on a normal lease... but as you've shown the math may not be so simple.
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 02-24-2016, 06:10 PM
greginchi's Avatar
greginchi greginchi is offline
Go Hawks!
Location: Chicago
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 228
Mein Auto: 2017 M3
Quote:
Originally Posted by untitledfolder View Post
Thanks to you both for digging into this with me. It gives me something more to chew on before I sign paperwork for the order. In my mind I really didn't want to pay Chicago's ridiculous use tax, and I read threads on like this one that made putting money down on OC not sound like a bad idea vs the universally bad idea of money down (not MSD) on a normal lease... but as you've shown the math may not be so simple.
Complicated for sure. I'd have him run both scenarios with only dealer fees out of pocket...taxes (except Chicago use) all in cap. On the lease side have him do it with full MSDs and also with no MSDs.
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 02-24-2016, 06:10 PM
Arciga18 Arciga18 is offline
Ekon Hitman
Location: Chicago
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 438
Mein Auto: 2011 E90 RWD and 2018 G01
Quote:
Originally Posted by untitledfolder View Post
Thanks to you both for digging into this with me. It gives me something more to chew on before I sign paperwork for the order. In my mind I really didn't want to pay Chicago's ridiculous use tax, and I read threads on like this one that made putting money down on OC not sound like a bad idea vs the universally bad idea of money down (not MSD) on a normal lease... but as you've shown the math may not be so simple.

I probably would go with Owners Choice on the next turn just to stick it to the man (city of Chicago). I give them enough money already living in the City so I don't want to pay their lease tax.

Also, for the little things like having your name on the registration.

Last time I got a camera ticket with my wife's Mazda (lease) I got sass from the "judge" to the tone of "is a company car ... blah blah blah,,, and that you need a lawyer blah blah blah its the state law. ".... no sir this is a personal car.... why is it a lease..... because i like spending my money.... blah blah blah.
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 02-24-2016, 06:21 PM
greginchi's Avatar
greginchi greginchi is offline
Go Hawks!
Location: Chicago
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 228
Mein Auto: 2017 M3
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arciga18 View Post
I probably would go with Owners Choice on the next turn just to stick it to the man (city of Chicago). I give them enough money already living in the City so I don't want to pay their lease tax.

Also, for the little things like having your name on the registration.

Last time I got a camera ticket with my wife's Mazda (lease) I got sass from the "judge" to the tone of "is a company car ... blah blah blah,,, and that you need a lawyer blah blah blah its the state law. ".... no sir this is a personal car.... why is it a lease..... because i like spending my money.... blah blah blah.
Haha, after all this I've decided to just keep my 535 and pay no more taxes on vehicles to the city...let's not even get started on where my prop tax is going with unsustainable govt pensions and a 50% increase in valuation...plus all the real estate transfer taxes I've paid in last few years...amazing this city is bankrupt but pandering Dumbocrats have been in charge forever...alas, I do love living here tho...
Reply With Quote
  #41  
Old 02-24-2016, 06:45 PM
untitledfolder untitledfolder is offline
Registered User
Location: Chi
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 32
Mein Auto: MINI
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arciga18 View Post
I probably would go with Owners Choice on the next turn just to stick it to the man (city of Chicago). I give them enough money already living in the City so I don't want to pay their lease tax.

Also, for the little things like having your name on the registration.

Last time I got a camera ticket with my wife's Mazda (lease) I got sass from the "judge" to the tone of "is a company car ... blah blah blah,,, and that you need a lawyer blah blah blah its the state law. ".... no sir this is a personal car.... why is it a lease..... because i like spending my money.... blah blah blah.
This is actually a part of it for me! The taxes might be a wash overall, and lease even still make slightly more sense mathematically but f' this tax, I kinda want my name on the title, and there is a chance I may choose to keep the car at the end sooo...
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old 02-24-2016, 08:02 PM
greginchi's Avatar
greginchi greginchi is offline
Go Hawks!
Location: Chicago
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 228
Mein Auto: 2017 M3
Quote:
Originally Posted by untitledfolder View Post
This is actually a part of it for me! The taxes might be a wash overall, and lease even still make slightly more sense mathematically but f' this tax, I kinda want my name on the title, and there is a chance I may choose to keep the car at the end sooo...
I'd double and triple check this because I've seen elsewhere if car is bought at end taxes are again due on the residual.

If you are dead set on putting money down I'd find out what happens if say the car got totaled early in the lease...what would you get paid back or would OC just be paid off because maybe you would lose all that money you put down.

And, personally, I wouldn't care about the principal of things I'd go for the solution that costs me less over the term. I've leased several BMWs in the past and never had an issue with not having my name on the title. I usually pay cash for cars now since I keep for awhile and put some miles on them and they have a title with my name on it but it doesn't really make me sleep any better than if it said BMWFS other than knowing I own it free and clear. Haha.
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 02-24-2016, 08:25 PM
untitledfolder untitledfolder is offline
Registered User
Location: Chi
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 32
Mein Auto: MINI
Quote:
Originally Posted by greginchi View Post
I'd double and triple check this because I've seen elsewhere if car is bought at end taxes are again due on the residual.

If you are dead set on putting money down I'd find out what happens if say the car got totaled early in the lease...what would you get paid back or would OC just be paid off because maybe you would lose all that money you put down.

And, personally, I wouldn't care about the principal of things I'd go for the solution that costs me less over the term. I've leased several BMWs in the past and never had an issue with not having my name on the title. I usually pay cash for cars now since I keep for awhile and put some miles on them and they have a title with my name on it but it doesn't really make me sleep any better than if it said BMWFS other than knowing I own it free and clear. Haha.
Yeah, I looked into the tax situation if you purchase at the end, but fortunately you don't pay taxes again on the residual. You own the car already (have title) when you pay off or refinance that last residual balloon payment so BMWFS is not selling it to you (triggering the re-tax like a lease). A small advantage to OC.

Again thanks for the input!!
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old 02-25-2016, 07:45 AM
greginchi's Avatar
greginchi greginchi is offline
Go Hawks!
Location: Chicago
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 228
Mein Auto: 2017 M3
I still don't understand how they come up with 2163 for upfront sales tax on the lease...shouldn't it just be 10.25% of 49405-32787? Only thing I'm thinking is that for some crazy reason MSDs get taxed upfront too?
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Old 02-25-2016, 08:49 AM
untitledfolder untitledfolder is offline
Registered User
Location: Chi
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 32
Mein Auto: MINI
Quote:
Originally Posted by greginchi View Post
I still don't understand how they come up with 2163 for upfront sales tax on the lease...shouldn't it just be 10.25% of 49405-32787? Only thing I'm thinking is that for some crazy reason MSDs get taxed upfront too?
Funny, I was going over the numbers again last night since I'm leaning towards the lease option now (thanks again!) and had this exact thought about the upfront sales tax and cash down tax totals. I've written the sales manager to clarify and will let you know.

Also under the 'itemized amount due at signing' the $4200 MSD's total + $169.27 doc fee + $196 lic. fee + $40 other fees = $4605.27. So where does $4634.65 come from in the next section? This is $29.38 higher, so we shall see...
Reply With Quote
  #46  
Old 02-25-2016, 09:01 AM
greginchi's Avatar
greginchi greginchi is offline
Go Hawks!
Location: Chicago
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 228
Mein Auto: 2017 M3
Quote:
Originally Posted by untitledfolder View Post
Funny, I was going over the numbers again last night since I'm leaning towards the lease option now (thanks again!) and had this exact thought about the upfront sales tax and cash down tax totals. I've written the sales manager to clarify and will let you know.

Also under the 'itemized amount due at signing' the $4200 MSD's total + $169.27 doc fee + $196 lic. fee + $40 other fees = $4605.27. So where does $4634.65 come from in the next section? This is $29.38 higher, so we shall see...
Awesome, I'd do the deal like it appears to be structured...roll 925 acq and sales tax into cap and put the 7 MSDs down. Only pay for doc/dealer/license fees out of pocket. Know that dealers around here will mark up MF the full 0.0004 so I'd try to get them to split the diff or 0.0001 at least.
Reply With Quote
  #47  
Old 02-25-2016, 09:36 AM
untitledfolder untitledfolder is offline
Registered User
Location: Chi
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 32
Mein Auto: MINI
Quote:
Originally Posted by greginchi View Post
Awesome, I'd do the deal like it appears to be structured...roll 925 acq and sales tax into cap and put the 7 MSDs down. Only pay for doc/dealer/license fees out of pocket. Know that dealers around here will mark up MF the full 0.0004 so I'd try to get them to split the diff or 0.0001 at least.
Fortunately they've agreed to do what I think is the current base MF, 0.00132. With MSD's it's 0.0009. Stay tuned lol.
Reply With Quote
  #48  
Old 02-25-2016, 10:38 AM
greginchi's Avatar
greginchi greginchi is offline
Go Hawks!
Location: Chicago
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 228
Mein Auto: 2017 M3
Quote:
Originally Posted by untitledfolder View Post
Fortunately they've agreed to do what I think is the current base MF, 0.00132. With MSD's it's 0.0009. Stay tuned lol.
Great, should be 0.00132 minus 0.00049 for 0.00083 though if they don't mark up at all.

That Gran Coupe/sedan looks pretty sweet though!

I really want a stick again so I'm leaning towards xDrive 340 M Sport with CWP, nav and track package...wish I could get a two door cuz that new M2 looks awesome!
Reply With Quote
  #49  
Old 02-25-2016, 11:33 AM
untitledfolder untitledfolder is offline
Registered User
Location: Chi
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 32
Mein Auto: MINI
Quote:
Originally Posted by greginchi View Post
Great, should be 0.00132 minus 0.00049 for 0.00083 though if they don't mark up at all.

That Gran Coupe/sedan looks pretty sweet though!

I really want a stick again so I'm leaning towards xDrive 340 M Sport with CWP, nav and track package...wish I could get a two door cuz that new M2 looks awesome!
Since I'm not a returning customer, I think one of the MSD's doesn't count, so total reduction of 0.00042 instead of 0.00049 . This seems to match with the BMW lease calculator spreadsheet I downloaded from this forum...

My favorite part of the Gran Coupe is the hatchback. Seriously, that was the deal maker coming from my MINI.

The M2 is seriously amazing, but a 340 M Sport would be a sweet ride too!
Reply With Quote
  #50  
Old 02-25-2016, 11:59 AM
Ninong Ninong is offline
bimmerfest Supporting Member
Location: USA
 
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 5,463
Mein Auto: M3
Quote:
Originally Posted by untitledfolder View Post
Since I'm not a returning customer, I think one of the MSD's doesn't count, so total reduction of 0.00042 instead of 0.00049 . This seems to match with the BMW lease calculator spreadsheet I downloaded from this forum...
Where did you read that? The part about having to be a "returning customer?" It's possible that the "BMW lease calculator spreadsheet" you downloaded is years out of date.

If you are putting up 7 MSDs, then the discount will be .00049. BMWFS does not currently require a security deposit; therefore, all seven of your security deposits count towards the discount.



P.S. -- Read the third paragraph here: https://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=809480

Last edited by Ninong; 02-25-2016 at 12:10 PM.
Reply With Quote
Reply

See More Related BMW Stories


Forum Navigation
Go Back   Bimmerfest - BMW Forums > BMW Buyers Guide - Dealers, resources, pricing, tips and trick > Ask-A-BMW-Dealer
Today's Posts Search
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On



Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 12:42 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
© 2001- VerticalScope Inc. All rights reserved.