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  #26  
Old 01-20-2018, 07:38 AM
jjrandorin jjrandorin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gkr778 View Post
+1
You're in good company, as Android devices - especially those that are typically used with an automotive infotainment system - completely dominate the market with close to 90% share globally. Everything else including Apple's iOS devices are minor players.

BMW steadfastly refuses to implement Android Auto in iDrive. Personally, that doesn't matter to me as I don't use mobile computing and communication devices while in my F30.
I would like to see stats to back that up (the fact that android dominates the market for phones that are used "with automotive infotainment systems".

Even if you find that stat, show me that is the case for cars in the "mass market luxury class" segment (mercedes, audi, BMW, etc).

You would likely find that its completely skewed the other way (in that the VAST majority of the people who drive BMWs / Audis / Mercs have iPhones, not android... or have both like I do with a work phone and a personal one).

Android dominates the market because of the vast majority of "cheap" phones sold. There is total market share, and then there is market share in a defined demographic. BMWs refusal to put android auto in BMWs tells us what they think their "defined demographic" is using from a majority, and I would bet money they are correct (in that the "typical BMW customer" either has an iPhone, or an ipod touch, or some form of apple device available to them, even if they have an android phone as well).
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  #27  
Old 01-20-2018, 09:48 AM
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This may be off topic but...what is the biggest benefit to having apple CarPlay, I had it on a loaner recently and it seemed to be more complex to use than: the native vehicle navigation, music selection or phone features. I have no interest in sending text messages while driving, is that the big item for some?


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  #28  
Old 01-20-2018, 10:52 AM
MJBrown62 MJBrown62 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gkr778 View Post
+1
You're in good company, as Android devices - especially those that are typically used with an automotive infotainment system - completely dominate the market with close to 90% share globally. Everything else including Apple's iOS devices are minor players.

BMW steadfastly refuses to implement Android Auto in iDrive. Personally, that doesn't matter to me as I don't use mobile computing and communication devices while in my F30.
JJ is right in that Android's dominance is due to the open architecture which allows for phones at all ends of the spectrum.

But here's where BMW fails ... If you want to draw "up" from other non-luxury segments, then catering services to iPhone only excludes people.

It should be a simple thing ... make the tech available to both platforms.

For me, I've had access to email and text messages via iDrive for a few YEARS now, and can stream all the same programs that iPhone users can, just on my phone and using "OK Google" instead of Siri, right through the car. And it is and will remain free of charge!

It's the iPhone cult that dominates people's thinking.

I have this discussion all the time ... at work, with family, in social media. I never win.
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  #29  
Old 01-20-2018, 01:17 PM
jjrandorin jjrandorin is offline
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Originally Posted by MJBrown62 View Post
JJ is right in that Android's dominance is due to the open architecture which allows for phones at all ends of the spectrum.

But here's where BMW fails ... If you want to draw "up" from other non-luxury segments, then catering services to iPhone only excludes people.

It should be a simple thing ... make the tech available to both platforms.

For me, I've had access to email and text messages via iDrive for a few YEARS now, and can stream all the same programs that iPhone users can, just on my phone and using "OK Google" instead of Siri, right through the car. And it is and will remain free of charge!

It's the iPhone cult that dominates people's thinking.

I have this discussion all the time ... at work, with family, in social media. I never win.
Just to be clear, I also prefer android over iPhone, especially since my team has to support iPhones at work (they are the corporate mobile device, and have been pretty much since they first came out). They all look the same... my iPhone 8 looks virtually identical to the iPhone 6 I just replaced.

Here are the problems as I see it

1. Android users are VASTLY more likely to "mess around" with their phones. By "mess around" I mean root them, side load apps, etc.

2. Android users, statistically spend very little on Apps (ask any developer that makes a "for sale" app for both android and iPhone and its NO contest on which platform actually buys more apps. The way developers make money from android apps is advertisements. I would rather pay for the app than have ads in it personally... but thats the minority of android users.

3. "android" user base is fragmented, due to its open nature. Even though google is putting more and more "rules" onto those manufacturers if they want access to googles suite of products (gmail, gcal, etc), the manufacturers can skin android pretty much how they want. This causes instructions on how to do something to be manufacturer specific instead of "android" specific.

This also means that at any given time, no one has any idea of what bluetooth chip will be in what phone, what screen size someone will have, what speed their phone will be running at, and even what version of android they are on, because most android manufacturers do not offer updates to the latest OS on a phone that is even 1 year old, let alone older.

So, supporting android is a lot more work for a manufacturer to do, and they have to decide is it worth it. Of course, all that can be overcome, if they just support the "major" android phones, but even if they SAY "Only supports Samsung galaxy 7/8, Note 7/8, Google nexus 6, Google pixel 1/2", someone with a motorola android phone is going to try it and be mad if it doesnt work correctly.

How many people actually look at BMWs website to see which version(s) of iPhone are actually supported? Likely almost zero. Android users will do the same thing.

So, it boils down to "who do we HAVE to support?" and at least right now, BMW doesnt feel like it HAS to support android. They dont even WANT to support iOS / iPhone, what with the additional charge (which is likely re capturing the licensing fee they have to pay apple to use it), and it sucks on BMWs. I tried it in a loaner and after half a day turned it off. iDrive is MUCH better... and I think thats also by design for BMW.

They will support android auto when they HAVE to... either when their target demographic makes it mandatory that they do, or they can spin it from a marketing perspective (and save money over apple carplay because of less licensing fees).

They SHOULD support both, as plenty of other manufacturers do, they just choose not to put any resources toward that.
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  #30  
Old 01-20-2018, 01:33 PM
ImolaRedM ImolaRedM is offline
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This battle has been played out several times elsewhere in the industry. PC/Mac (hardware not the OS), The Open Web Platform, Unix/Linux/Windows and the list goes on. There are no winners but in the long run consumers get choices. I'm firmly on the stance of building services not platforms. That said, I do tend to use iPhone and even with photography I like the closed RAW formats better than DNG. It's hard to argue against tighter integration when looking for a more polished product. BMW here can integrate it's iDrive service more closely with it's cars whereas Apple or Alphabet will need to build for the masses which leads to compromises then, where possible, fragmentation to address the deficiencies of serving many platforms.
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  #31  
Old 01-20-2018, 01:56 PM
MJBrown62 MJBrown62 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ImolaRedM View Post
This battle has been played out several times elsewhere in the industry.
Hey Imola ... good to see you on the 'Fest!

Cheers!

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  #32  
Old 01-20-2018, 03:24 PM
ImolaRedM ImolaRedM is offline
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Originally Posted by MJBrown62 View Post
Hey Imola ... good to see you on the 'Fest!

Cheers!

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  #33  
Old 01-20-2018, 08:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MJBrown62 View Post
JJ is right in that Android's dominance is due to the open architecture which allows for phones at all ends of the spectrum.

But here's where BMW fails ... If you want to draw "up" from other non-luxury segments, then catering services to iPhone only excludes people.

It should be a simple thing ... make the tech available to both platforms.

For me, I've had access to email and text messages via iDrive for a few YEARS now, and can stream all the same programs that iPhone users can, just on my phone and using "OK Google" instead of Siri, right through the car. And it is and will remain free of charge!

It's the iPhone cult that dominates people's thinking.

I have this discussion all the time ... at work, with family, in social media. I never win.
Thanks MJBrown62. BMW is a member of GENIVI Alliance, which promotes the adoption of open source, Linux based infrastructure for automobile infotainment systems. Another organization,
Open Automotive Alliance (OAA), promotes Android based infotainment systems. Most of BMW's competitors including Audi, Mercedes-Benz, Alfa Romeo, Jaguar, Cadillac, Infiniti, and Volvo Cars are members of OAA. Mercedes-Benz, Volvo, and Infiniti are members of both GENIVI and OAA.

BMW does not participate in OAA. AFAIK, it is also the only OEM serving the U.S. market that supports Apple Carplay but not Android Auto. Everyone else supports both, or neither (Toyota being the main OEM in the latter category).
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  #34  
Old 01-21-2018, 05:02 AM
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Just a couple thoughts as someone involved in the software industry (Automation is my arena)...

Quote:
Originally Posted by DDGator View Post
CarPlay is more than just a one-time "hardware" feature. It is largely software. I would have to assume that the software is continually under development.

If the licensing price model means we will get more development and frequent updates, I'm o.k. with the change.
BMW has not made any claims that there will be more frequently updates or additional features in the roadmap for CarPlay. Only that you'll rent access rather than own it. My concern is the trend this sets if successful.

How about renting you access to your seat warmers? Or your navigation system?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Squeak View Post
The software development and updates are done by Apple, not BMW.

BMW just put in the hardware to allow for the phone to put its display on the screen and give input via the wheel and buttons.
I'm no expert on CarPlay but I highly doubt that BMW's end of the bargain is only providing a screen. Suspect that Apple only provides the software module and APIs to connect to it. If this is correct, there is a great deal of integration work on BMWs part: connecting the MMI, coordinating between the variety of input methods (buttons on steering wheel, touch screen, and wheel/buttons), as well as ownership fo the final validation.

Having said that, 'renting' car features is fairly despicable even if BMW inherits some work.
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  #35  
Old 01-21-2018, 07:47 AM
MJBrown62 MJBrown62 is offline
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Originally Posted by gkr778 View Post
Thanks MJBrown62.
Perfect info that explains things perfectly.
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  #36  
Old 01-21-2018, 09:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Squeak View Post
The software development and updates are done by Apple, not BMW.
Of course I realize that, but its a partnership of sorts. And BMW has to be the ones to work with BMW on updates and push them out. By making CarPlay a subscription model, BMW has incentive to make sure customers are happy with their CarPlay service.
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  #37  
Old 01-21-2018, 09:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AggieKnight View Post

How about renting you access to your seat warmers? Or your navigation system?
I can see doing the NAV as a subscription model if it is getting over-the-air maps and updates. It's not free for BMW to provide (or license) that data. The real question would be -- what is it worth and will people be willing to pay when there are free (ad-supported) options available?

How does "renting" a purely hardware feature like seat warmers compare to software systems? That isn't making much sense, I'm afraid.

Subscription models are a valid way of pricing software. It gives the Developer incentives and funding to keep software current and working. It can benefit the consumer in lower initial pricing and better service. Of course -- if it's not better service then you can expect people to cancel and look for other things.
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  #38  
Old 01-21-2018, 10:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DDGator View Post
By making CarPlay a subscription model, BMW has incentive to make sure customers are happy with their CarPlay service.
Well, it couldn't be any worse than the current implementation of CarPlay with BMW iDrive! Then again, Apple itself is responsible for much of its subpar design.
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  #39  
Old 01-21-2018, 10:52 AM
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Well, it couldn't be any worse than the current implementation of CarPlay with BMW iDrive! Then again, Apple itself is responsible for much of its subpar design.


Agreed 110% with you. BMW’s hands are tied by Apple. Unless BMW knows something about Apples’ future software plans for CarPlay that will ‘blow the socks off’

In the G11 & G30 with gesture control is CarPlay able to be controlled with hand gestures?
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  #40  
Old 01-21-2018, 02:11 PM
theshawnz theshawnz is offline
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Perhaps BMW does perform some software development that's only seen in newer model vehicles (and not with connected drive updates) in an effort to get consumers to update to the latest model...just like Apple.


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  #41  
Old 01-24-2018, 11:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DDGator View Post
I can see doing the NAV as a subscription model if it is getting over-the-air maps and updates. It's not free for BMW to provide (or license) that data. The real question would be -- what is it worth and will people be willing to pay when there are free (ad-supported) options available?
Emphasis added. And in your mind, is it still a viable model should over the air updates not be included in the price?

Quote:
How does "renting" a purely hardware feature like seat warmers compare to software systems? That isn't making much sense, I'm afraid.
...
Subscription models are a valid way of pricing software. It gives the Developer incentives and funding to keep software current and working. It can benefit the consumer in lower initial pricing and better service. Of course -- if it's not better service then you can expect people to cancel and look for other things.
It's a valid comparison as it is an actual business model being experimented by hardware providers in some other industries today.
Subscription models for software work when the consumer is receiving ongoing value and/or additional flexibility that a direct purchase. BMW really hasn't defined what their ongoing value strategy is for this subscription model.
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  #42  
Old 01-25-2018, 11:59 AM
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The ‘back door’ is generating aftermarket 143 CarPlay FSC Code:

https://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=926721

Just like how F engines have recently been ‘cracked’ to allow flash tuning via OBDII, only a matter of time CarPlay subscription goes the same route.

MJB- the subscription renewal rate had to be low for Sirius, thus why it’s no cost factory installed in all vehicles now and 1st year service is free.
Some makers, Jag and MB I believe, charge for satellite radio receivers. $300-400, IIRC. I was dumbfounded.

You're buying a $60K+ vehicle and they want to soak you another couple hundred for something that comes as standard on a Yaris? Pffffft.
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  #43  
Old 01-25-2018, 12:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MJBrown62 View Post
JJ is right in that Android's dominance is due to the open architecture which allows for phones at all ends of the spectrum.

But here's where BMW fails ... If you want to draw "up" from other non-luxury segments, then catering services to iPhone only excludes people.

It should be a simple thing ... make the tech available to both platforms.

For me, I've had access to email and text messages via iDrive for a few YEARS now, and can stream all the same programs that iPhone users can, just on my phone and using "OK Google" instead of Siri, right through the car. And it is and will remain free of charge!

It's the iPhone cult that dominates people's thinking.

I have this discussion all the time ... at work, with family, in social media. I never win.
I'm right there with you. My wife switched from her Galaxy S7 to an iPhone 7, then recently to the iPhone X. I said "Congrats! You're now back to the same hardware specs as you had with your S7 3 years ago...." She was unamused. For her, the Apple Watch is what has her hooked.



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  #44  
Old 01-27-2018, 05:39 PM
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Are any posters above actually currently using Car Play? I have been using in both 2018’s M4 vert and X5M. It is awful on the M4 as it’s a non-touch screen, the X5M is at least touch screen. CarPlay is nice to stream music, but once your within CarPlay if you select Maps button via iDrive pad it defaults to Apple Maps which is sub-par compared to the BMW OEM navigation. The value is just not there to justify a subscription service as it lacks the ‘wow’ factor.
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  #45  
Old 01-27-2018, 05:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Der_Kommissar View Post
I've heard reports that BMW is moving to a subscription model for CarPlay- no cost up front, free first year, and then $80 a year in perpetuity. Personally, I see this as a very customer unfriendly move for a service that most other makers offer for free when they do offer it. I believe that leasers will pay a bit more across three years than they would have paid for the adding the $300 option for the service at the time of sale, and those of us who buy and hold will pay a lit more. Plus, they get to resell the service to every CPO buyer. Some may be happy with the free 1st year and quit, I suppose. What do you all think of this, and how do you sell this as improvement (to the buyer- it's clearly better for BMW) over the prior system?


I wouldn’t give a nickel for Car Play. I hate it.


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