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E60 / E61 (2004 - 2010)
BMW 5-Series E60 Sedan was first seen in the Unites States in the fall of 2003 with a 2004 Model Year designation. The E61 wagon followed shortly there after. The E60/E61 5 series is now available as a 528i, 528xi, 535i, 535xi, 550i and a 535xi sports wagon! -- View the E60 Wiki

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  #51  
Old 09-24-2018, 10:02 PM
H F H F is offline
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yeah The old school M division of bmw were the elite

back in the 80's and 90's when bmw and audi came to trans-am race'n



as far as breaking bushings @ 900hp... Ive got nothing i can add to that.. Id imaging that your friend is probably telling you the truth

Im more of a very high speed daily racer I do 100+ 120+ every day, the roads i travel are regular 85mph crushing


I mean i can pass people @ 100 every morning to work, vans trucks pos cars you name it.. (which is scary in it self.. because i know my performance level and i see/pass cars that i know are about to fall apart and they are doing 90?!)


Im gonna quit with the sale on that though, all i can tell you is that 100k later on the inside trailing arms of the e39 (the same thing about) purple bushings are tight, no noise or any kind of play.. ball joints are still tight, on the outter upper arms.. if i have to replace a bushing, Ill go with purple again

I have been listening to your input and appreciate sharing your expertise . And ill be honest and say I'm contemplating going for it . Not just the swing arms but also the control arms and guide arms ..If I go for it ,, Im going all the way in ,, in the rear.. Black for the swing arms and purple for the control arms is what Im thinking . Or just go all bushings black ,,and never look back ?

Im asking because you have had them both ,, and have them in all your bmw's .. Want your take on the difference of the two ,, black vs purple in actual hard driving conditions ..
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  #52  
Old 09-24-2018, 11:36 PM
oldiegoodie oldiegoodie is offline
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I have been listening to your input and appreciate sharing your expertise . And ill be honest and say I'm contemplating going for it . Not just the swing arms but also the control arms and guide arms ..If I go for it ,, Im going all the way in ,, in the rear.. Black for the swing arms and purple for the control arms is what Im thinking . Or just go all bushings black ,,and never look back ?

Im asking because you have had them both ,, and have them in all your bmw's .. Want your take on the difference of the two ,, black vs purple in actual hard driving conditions ..
Hey H F;

Have you looked at the specifications of the 3 grades of powerflex bushings?

Apparently, the yellow ones are 25% stiffer, purple are 30% stiffer and black are 80% stiffer than OEM rubber bushings. As far as choosing the right ones for balance of comfort and performance, I would do more research on the work performed by each component of the rear suspension.

Check this link out: https://powerflexusa.com/howtochoose.aspx

Before I give my two cents, I want to be perfectly clear that this is my opinion only. Anyhow, logically deducing, the swing arm bushings are doing a lot more work in straight line applications like acceleration and braking while the wishbone and guiding link bushings do more work in turns and over bumps and/or uneven surfaces. With that said, I would consider NVH at this point if I was looking for good balance of control but didn't want to feel like I'm driving on "bricks".

If I'm thinking this through correctly though, I'd go with harder bushings in swing arms and softer in wishbone and guiding link.


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  #53  
Old 09-25-2018, 12:54 AM
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Ive never ran all black.. Id say ive always leaned a little more twds purple... but mostly because price

I cant say ive ever felt any difference between the 2, its more of a scientific difference then difference we can tell..

polyurethane is closer to a plastic then rubber, BUt a soft plastic that you can press and squeeze,

lol well not according to that chart it isnt, i think you got my point

i also can agree with you "dont want to feel like your on bricks" Id stay with purple
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  #54  
Old 09-25-2018, 12:56 AM
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Originally Posted by oldiegoodie View Post
How easy are the polyurethane bushings to install? I would assume that they won't require as much press force as OEM or mono ball bushings. Correct?

I'm thinking of doing some poly upgrades on my 5er, but before I do I need to know more facts and information.


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its harder getting the bushings out of the control arm then it is getting the new bushings back in..

the poly bushings basically can be pressed in by hand with some lube..

very little force is required.. Nothing extreme
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  #55  
Old 09-25-2018, 08:48 AM
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Originally Posted by oldiegoodie View Post
Hey H F;

Have you looked at the specifications of the 3 grades of powerflex bushings?

Apparently, the yellow ones are 25% stiffer, purple are 30% stiffer and black are 80% stiffer than OEM rubber bushings. As far as choosing the right ones for balance of comfort and performance, I would do more research on the work performed by each component of the rear suspension.

Check this link out: https://powerflexusa.com/howtochoose.aspx

Before I give my two cents, I want to be perfectly clear that this is my opinion only. Anyhow, logically deducing, the swing arm bushings are doing a lot more work in straight line applications like acceleration and braking while the wishbone and guiding link bushings do more work in turns and over bumps and/or uneven surfaces. With that said, I would consider NVH at this point if I was looking for good balance of control but didn't want to feel like I'm driving on "bricks".

If I'm thinking this through correctly though, I'd go with harder bushings in swing arms and softer in wishbone and guiding link.


-oldiegoodie
Yes ,, I did look at that specification information and posted it .. But it's just a hardness spec .
It's not an actual road feel analysis of driver input during ,, lets call it spirited driving differences .

And I agree with your thoughts on swing arms foreward movement and control arms in cornering . And is why started thinking I need to have a equal balance between front thrust arm and rear swing arms . In reducing the toe in on breaking into cornering and acceleration coming out of the curve ..

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Originally Posted by Burning2nd View Post
Ive never ran all black.. Id say ive always leaned a little more twds purple... but mostly because price

I cant say ive ever felt any difference between the 2, its more of a scientific difference then difference we can tell..

polyurethane is closer to a plastic then rubber, BUt a soft plastic that you can press and squeeze,

lol well not according to that chart it isnt, i think you got my point

i also can agree with you "dont want to feel like your on bricks" Id stay with purple
So ,,black ,,, I'm thinking would give me the stability and rigidity I'm seeking during those spirited road conditions and have equal balance between rear swing arm and front thrust arm ..


On the arms , I'm Also now thinking about black and not purple . Because it's for cornering not ride comfort ,,and will aid in the rear end swinging back and forth in the tight S turn twisties . Which I can definitely feel ,,or I should say felt even when my rear suspension was not worn out .

Second ,,,if the ARS is compromising road feel for comfort ,, then black will bring back more feel and reduce a little bit of comfort .. which I don't have a problem with.

Third ,,, with my new V3's ,, I have full adjustment of rebound and compression .. this will allow me to find a happy medium on road harshness , if the combination of all new components is too hard ..

So ,, after re examining , reconsidering all factors involved .. I'm now thinking about taking the plunge and go all in , and give it a shot with black bushings for the rear . Even though I've had negative thoughts about poly ... I'm on the verge of going for it ... but if you say you felt no difference ,, then I'll save a few bucks and go purple . I have black in the shopping cart ,, $385 .00 shipped . I'll check purple ...
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  #56  
Old 09-25-2018, 11:05 AM
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I've always wondered about the damper technology used by KW. To my knowledge, they use a twin-tube design. Curious as to why they don't employ high pressure gas monotube (as seen in the higher line Bilstein dampers), which seems to have many advantages.
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  #57  
Old 09-25-2018, 03:20 PM
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you got fully adjustable's and you want race car mode..

do the blacks.. you wont be sorry.. as long as you said ride and not comfort , just so you know and we are on the same page with that..

your going in all race car mode.. your gonna be untouchable you will be back talking about brakes, and tires

Thing is going to be unstoppable
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  #58  
Old 09-25-2018, 07:52 PM
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you got fully adjustable's and you want race car mode..

do the blacks.. you wont be sorry.. as long as you said ride and not comfort , just so you know and we are on the same page with that..

your going in all race car mode.. your gonna be untouchable you will be back talking about brakes, and tires

Thing is going to be unstoppable
+1

I would go with black series as well. You have very high level adjustable coil overs, top notch mono ball bushings. It wouldn't make sense to compromise at this point. Imagine all the power going to the wheels without any deflection.
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  #59  
Old 09-25-2018, 09:56 PM
H F H F is offline
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Originally Posted by Burning2nd View Post
you got fully adjustable's and you want race car mode..

do the blacks.. you wont be sorry.. as long as you said ride and not comfort , just so you know and we are on the same page with that..

your going in all race car mode.. your gonna be untouchable you will be back talking about brakes, and tires

Thing is going to be unstoppable
Yes , V3's are fully adjustable .. So I can have it both ways , with a few clicks ..



So ya ,, if I wanted comfort ,, Id have a Lexus ..

I"m not really wanting race mode per say . Don't get me wrong ,, my 545 gets up and goes and I hit 140 pretty fast ... But I think out of the dig ,a 545 is a slug in a straight line .. BUT! , her G spot is in the tight snakes,, shes a under rated 4 door cornering machine , a fast Mother Efer !! Ive shocked the crap outta people in this thing .. So ,, in my opinion , that's what this car was made for .. And where I get all my enjoyment ..

Ok ,, man .. After a thorough re consideration in order to match and have equal balance front and rear as far as stability and rigidity .. I think you have persuaded me .. I'm going to give these black bushings in the rear a shot ..

Tires ,, Im happy with Venus V12 EVO's they stick like contact cement .. Also I'd go for a LSD before brakes .. Quaife is next on the list ..
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  #60  
Old 09-25-2018, 10:05 PM
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+1

I would go with black series as well. You have very high level adjustable coil overs, top notch mono ball bushings. It wouldn't make sense to compromise at this point. Imagine all the power going to the wheels without any deflection.
Exactly what I'm thinking..
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  #61  
Old 09-25-2018, 10:29 PM
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I've always wondered about the damper technology used by KW. To my knowledge, they use a twin-tube design. Curious as to why they don't employ high pressure gas monotube (as seen in the higher line Bilstein dampers), which seems to have many advantages.
You know that's a good question ..
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Old 09-25-2018, 11:35 PM
oldiegoodie oldiegoodie is offline
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I'm going to give these black bushings in the rear a shot ..
This isn't even my build and I'm excited as if it was!


Quote:
Tires ,, Im happy with Venus V12 EVO's they stick like contact cement .. Also I'd go for a LSD before brakes .. Quaife is next on the list ..
This would be the proper order of upgrades, in my opinion. Although, once you get to LSD setup you'll probably be looking at wider tires in the rear for more grip to put the power down properly. The pseudo LSD on the 545i and the 550i kills a lot of power off the line and at least through 2nd gear. I truly believe that with all this setup you are doing right now, you'll probably bring the 0-60 times below 5 seconds, given that you have really good grip. Are you still rolling on those original Style 124s?
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  #63  
Old 09-26-2018, 02:17 AM
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I would mix and match purple and black in the rear,

I think all black is going to be really stiff and a lot more aggressive then you think

the bound and rebound adjustment isnt going to do anything for you except change how the car under and over steers (how it preforms under load in turns) *ive have several sets of fully adjustable coil overs

I mean you cant go wrong here.. either way you making the right choice, BUT i just want to say.. that all black suspension is very aggressive, AND is probably going to be a little more aggressive then you want/need

I would recommend mix'n match some purple in there..
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  #64  
Old 09-26-2018, 06:26 AM
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Originally Posted by oldiegoodie View Post
I will definitely share if and when I get the information. There is a huge downside to the side-to-side softness of rear suspension, at least on my 5er. When I'm cornering at higher than average speed and encounter some bump or uneven surface, the car tends to swing outward just a tad. That's a given, taking into consideration the rubber bushings. I am not particularly satisfied with this phenomenon, for lack of better word. On slippery surface, if tires loose grip, that extra swing can easily put the car in over steer situation.


-oldiegoodie
You would think that DTC would kick in , and tap and brake the rear outer corner to counter over steer . To regain traction .. I can swerve to the right during aleft cornering turn and she"s solid . I havent experienced that on my car ..

How many miles ? Got sport suspension ? ARS ? Active Steering ?
What he is talking about is bump oversteer and that is common when you are loading up the car on the outside and you encounter a bump. Happens on all types of race cars and not just road cars. Different suspensions will handle this situation better than some

Your advice on taping the brake in an oversteer situation is not good advice. That is the exact opposite of what you should do. If anything you gently back off the throttle, ignore the brake and correct into the oversteer condition. By tapping the brakes, you are increasing the chance the cars oversteer and the likeliness of the car to spin around.
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  #65  
Old 09-26-2018, 08:01 AM
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Originally Posted by MRV99 View Post
What he is talking about is bump oversteer and that is common when you are loading up the car on the outside and you encounter a bump. Happens on all types of race cars and not just road cars. Different suspensions will handle this situation better than some

Your advice on taping the brake in an oversteer situation is not good advice. That is the exact opposite of what you should do. If anything you gently back off the throttle, ignore the brake and correct into the oversteer condition. By tapping the brakes, you are increasing the chance the cars oversteer and the likeliness of the car to spin around.
This was my statement ,, You miss read what I was referring to ,, read it again.
Quote:
Originally Posted by H F

You would think that DTC would kick in , and tap and brake the rear outer corner to counter over steer
This was not me giving handling advice ...

I was explaining DTC intervention .. DTC kicks in on any particular wheel at any particular time,,when DTC senses a loss of wheel traction and or or wheel slip on over steer.. DTC will intervene ,, and tap the breaks X amount of times in mlli seconds .. The driver will not even notice the intervention ..

When DTC intervenes it will flash on the cluster .. When I'm carving the corners very aggressively ,, my DTC light flashes like a strobe light .

Ive been carving canyon roads as a teenager since before I was legally allowed to drive .. Back in 1975 .. And Ive been hooked ever since..

I appreciate you chiming in ,, And your advice is correct ,,and I agree , backing off the accelerator aids in a over steer situation ..

Also ,, I would like to add . Being in the right gear with high rpms , also helps to prevent over steering ..
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  #66  
Old 09-26-2018, 09:01 AM
oldiegoodie oldiegoodie is offline
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Originally Posted by MRV99 View Post
What he is talking about is bump oversteer and that is common when you are loading up the car on the outside and you encounter a bump. Happens on all types of race cars and not just road cars. Different suspensions will handle this situation better than some
Yes, exactly what I'm talking about. I don't have much experience driving high performance sedans or even sports cars. I've owned a couple of Japanese hatchbacks and a couple of American sedans but that's about it. This is actually my first, more serious vehicle. What I mean by more serious, the technology, especially suspension, is years ahead of what I've driven before, and I drive a 12 year old 5er.

Anyway, thanks for sharing on the bump over steer. How would polyurethane bushings change the dynamics of this? If I understand correctly, rubber bushings soften this bump over steer, making it feel more like a swing, even with the BMW e60 sport suspension already, somewhat aggressive camber setup.


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  #67  
Old 09-26-2018, 09:16 AM
MRV99 MRV99 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MRV99 View Post
What he is talking about is bump oversteer and that is common when you are loading up the car on the outside and you encounter a bump. Happens on all types of race cars and not just road cars. Different suspensions will handle this situation better than some

Your advice on taping the brake in an oversteer situation is not good advice. That is the exact opposite of what you should do. If anything you gently back off the throttle, ignore the brake and correct into the oversteer condition. By tapping the brakes, you are increasing the chance the cars oversteer and the likeliness of the car to spin around.
This was my statement ,, You miss read what I was referring to ,, read it again.
Quote:
Originally Posted by H F

You would think that DTC would kick in , and tap and brake the rear outer corner to counter over steer
This was not me giving handling advice ...

I was explaining DTC intervention .. DTC kicks in on any particular wheel at any particular time,,when DTC senses a loss of wheel traction and or or wheel slip on over steer.. DTC will intervene ,, and tap the breaks X amount of times in mlli seconds .. The driver will not even notice the intervention ..

When DTC intervenes it will flash on the cluster .. When I'm carving the corners very aggressively ,, my DTC light flashes like a strobe light .

Ive been carving canyon roads as a teenager since before I was legally allowed to drive .. Back in 1975 .. And Ive been hooked ever since..

I appreciate you chiming in ,, And your advice is correct ,,and I agree , backing off the accelerator aids in a over steer situation ..

Also ,, I would like to add . Being in the right gear with high rpms , also helps to prevent over steering ..
I do apologize, the comma and the and read like a DTC and driver brake intervention. You are correct thet the nannies on the car will detect the yaw and wheel slip adding correction by braking and throttle intervention without driver doing anything.
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  #68  
Old 09-26-2018, 09:26 AM
MRV99 MRV99 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MRV99 View Post
What he is talking about is bump oversteer and that is common when you are loading up the car on the outside and you encounter a bump. Happens on all types of race cars and not just road cars. Different suspensions will handle this situation better than some
Yes, exactly what I'm talking about. I don't have much experience driving high performance sedans or even sports cars. I've owned a couple of Japanese hatchbacks and a couple of American sedans but that's about it. This is actually my first, more serious vehicle. What I mean by more serious, the technology, especially suspension, is years ahead of what I've driven before, and I drive a 12 year old 5er.

Anyway, thanks for sharing on the bump over steer. How would polyurethane bushings change the dynamics of this? If I understand correctly, rubber bushings soften this bump over steer, making it feel more like a swing, even with the BMW e60 sport suspension already, somewhat aggressive camber setup.


-oldiegoodie
One adjustment people have to make when moving to larger performance sedans is there is a ton of weight and mass which has to be controlled on usually skinnier all season tires which are poor in most situations. The advanced ARS/ABD/DCT (or what ever acronym your car has) has done a great job of hiding the mass/weight of these cars. Most people do not understand just how much trouble one would get into if these systems were not present.

As for the bushings, the effects of the bump oversteer may be more jarring but will allow the corrections be it electronic or human more precise. Instead of the mass/weight of the car to continue to travel when intervention happens, the suspension will begin to load quicker. The harder bushing will cause less slop in the suspension geometry and will communicate what the road is doing to the car in a more precise way than rubber, especially when they wear out. What happens next is the limits of the tire will begin to be show but that is a longer conversation on contact patch and friction circles(hahah track junkie at work)

At the track, that feedback allows one to drive with the nannies off and feel when the car is starting to loose grip and will begin to become more out of shape which can lead to going off track or worse a spin
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  #69  
Old 09-26-2018, 09:36 AM
H F H F is offline
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I do apologize, the comma and the and read like a DTC and driver brake intervention. You are correct thet the nannies on the car will detect the yaw and wheel slip adding correction by braking and throttle intervention without driver doing anything.
No worries ,, appreciate you input ..
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Old 09-26-2018, 09:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Burning2nd View Post
I would mix and match purple and black in the rear,

I think all black is going to be really stiff and a lot more aggressive then you think

the bound and rebound adjustment isnt going to do anything for you except change how the car under and over steers (how it preforms under load in turns) *ive have several sets of fully adjustable coil overs

I mean you cant go wrong here.. either way you making the right choice, BUT i just want to say.. that all black suspension is very aggressive, AND is probably going to be a little more aggressive then you want/need

I would recommend mix'n match some purple in there..
The decision has been made ,, going black ,, and I'm not looking back . I placed the order just now and I just got off the phone with Lynn from Powerflex ..

So Powerflex only makes the black bushings for the 545 .. We also talked purple vs black . And he said they did intensive testing on the two with BMW's .. There is a 25% difference and not really noticeable to the driver on a comfort level ..

He said ,, that the black bushings outperformed the purple . That is the reason why black is the only option for bushings #'s 10,11,12,13 on the 545 .

So that basically sealed the deal for me ,, and I went head first and purchased ..
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Old 09-26-2018, 10:06 AM
oldiegoodie oldiegoodie is offline
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The decision has been made ,, going black ,, and I'm not looking back . I placed the order just now and I just got off the phone with Lynn from Powerflex ..

So Powerflex only makes the black bushings for the 545 .. We also talked purple vs black . And he said they did intensive testing on the two with BMW's .. There is a 25% difference and not really noticeable to the driver on a comfort level ..

He said ,, that the black bushings outperformed the purple . That is the reason why black is the only option for bushings #'s 10,11,12,13 on the 545 .

So that basically sealed the deal for me ,, and I went head first and purchased ..
Congratulations on making the well researched decision!
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Old 09-26-2018, 10:07 AM
H F H F is offline
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Originally Posted by oldiegoodie View Post
This isn't even my build and I'm excited as if it was!




This would be the proper order of upgrades, in my opinion. Although, once you get to LSD setup you'll probably be looking at wider tires in the rear for more grip to put the power down properly. The pseudo LSD on the 545i and the 550i kills a lot of power off the line and at least through 2nd gear. I truly believe that with all this setup you are doing right now, you'll probably bring the 0-60 times below 5 seconds, given that you have really good grip. Are you still rolling on those original Style 124s?
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Originally Posted by oldiegoodie View Post
Congratulations on making the well researched decision!
Thanks man ... I do appreciate your excitement for my ride .. Its been a long long wait for me and I'm super excited ..

Well ,, I'm a third gear to top end kind of a runner .. LSD for me , is for traction on cornering .

Yes I still run my stock 124's ..
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Last edited by H F; 09-26-2018 at 10:17 AM.
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  #73  
Old 09-26-2018, 10:52 AM
oldiegoodie oldiegoodie is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by H F View Post
Thanks man ... I do appreciate your excitement for my ride .. Its been a long long wait for me and I'm super excited ..

Well ,, I'm a third gear to top end kind of a runner .. LSD for me , is for traction on cornering .

Yes I still run my stock 124's ..
Absolutely gorgeous!

I am thinking about tinting mine as well. Complements the satin black trim perfectly. I also ride on Style 124s. Do you have spacers installed?
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  #74  
Old 09-26-2018, 11:02 AM
H F H F is offline
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Originally Posted by MRV99 View Post
One adjustment people have to make when moving to larger performance sedans is there is a ton of weight and mass which has to be controlled on usually skinnier all season tires which are poor in most situations. The advanced ARS/ABD/DCT (or what ever acronym your car has) has done a great job of hiding the mass/weight of these cars. Most people do not understand just how much trouble one would get into if these systems were not present.

As for the bushings, the effects of the bump oversteer may be more jarring but will allow the corrections be it electronic or human more precise. Instead of the mass/weight of the car to continue to travel when intervention happens, the suspension will begin to load quicker. The harder bushing will cause less slop in the suspension geometry and will communicate what the road is doing to the car in a more precise way than rubber, especially when they wear out. What happens next is the limits of the tire will begin to be show but that is a longer conversation on contact patch and friction circles(hahah track junkie at work)

At the track, that feedback allows one to drive with the nannies off and feel when the car is starting to loose grip and will begin to become more out of shape which can lead to going off track or worse a spin
Totally agree ,, I have turned off the nannies on many canyon runs .. And I had to slow down because of the unstable feeling and response of the car with the nannies off ..
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  #75  
Old 09-26-2018, 11:18 AM
oldiegoodie oldiegoodie is offline
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Originally Posted by H F View Post
Totally agree ,, I have turned off the nannies on many canyon runs .. And I had to slow down because of the unstable feeling and response of the car with the nannies off ..
I am, literally, afraid to turn off all systems completely due to lack of proper LSD system. Trying to drift the car out of corners without LSD, talking about the 1 tire spinner here, could be costly.
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