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The sixth generation BMW 3 Series Sedan F30/F31/F34 and the first first generation 4 Series Coupe F32/F33/F36. Get the latest 3 and 4 series pricing from our ordering and pricing guide sticky thread.

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  #176  
Old 07-30-2015, 04:41 AM
Jerseyal Jerseyal is offline
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Originally Posted by fourseriesfan View Post
OK. Thanks.

It's a battle of wills right now. They called back with .0015.

It's all so dumb... I have to haggle almost every step of the way even though they know I know all the numbers and how they work together (thank you spreadsheet author).

As soon as you heard .0013+ x, it was your cue to do business with someone else.
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  #177  
Old 07-30-2015, 07:33 AM
g8orscott g8orscott is offline
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I don't quite get the hatred of dealer markup of MF to the exclusion of the rest of a deal. I leased a car at max markup, which probably gave the dealer an extra $1400 or so over the 36 months. However, they sold the car at $2,500 below what I thought was possible (including board sponsors) due to it being an off the lot 2015. Overall the deal seemed more than fair, I didn't have to wait for 2016 lease numbers and take that risk, and the finance manager even saved me some on my MSD deposits (I didn't understand the cutoffs). All this despite the dreaded MF markup.
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  #178  
Old 07-30-2015, 08:31 AM
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Weaselboy Weaselboy is offline
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Originally Posted by g8orscott View Post
I don't quite get the hatred of dealer markup of MF to the exclusion of the rest of a deal. I leased a car at max markup, which probably gave the dealer an extra $1400 or so over the 36 months. However, they sold the car at $2,500 below what I thought was possible (including board sponsors) due to it being an off the lot 2015. Overall the deal seemed more than fair, I didn't have to wait for 2016 lease numbers and take that risk, and the finance manager even saved me some on my MSD deposits (I didn't understand the cutoffs). All this despite the dreaded MF markup.
I think the negativity about it has to do with the fact people often don't know about it, so when they hear about it they feel a little mislead by the dealer.

I don't think there is a day goes by we don't see a new member here asking about their deal and the MF is marked up without them being aware of it.

So you lease a car thinking the dealer made say around $1,000 over invoice and you feel like that is fair, only to find out later the dealer made an extra $1,400 (from your example) by marking up the MF. You are not going to be so happy about your deal now are you?

I get what you are saying that there might be times the deal is otherwise so good it would be okay to let the dealer make some money on a MF markup. But just going by what we see new members coming in here and asking, I think that is rarely the case.
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  #179  
Old 07-30-2015, 08:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Weaselboy View Post
I think the negativity about it has to do with the fact people often don't know about it, so when they hear about it they feel a little mislead by the dealer.

I don't think there is a day goes by we don't see a new member here asking about their deal and the MF is marked up without them being aware of it.

So you lease a car thinking the dealer made say around $1,000 over invoice and you feel like that is fair, only to find out later the dealer made an extra $1,400 (from your example) by marking up the MF. You are not going to be so happy about your deal now are you?

I get what you are saying that there might be times the deal is otherwise so good it would be okay to let the dealer make some money on a MF markup. But just going by what we see new members coming in here and asking, I think that is rarely the case.
This is it exactly. The typical consumer does not understand MF but does understand interest rate. When a buyer is doing traditional financing they understand what a competitive interest rate is and in a matter of minutes with a cell phone they can call their local credit union, etc, to find out what a good vehicle loan rate is.

Because leases are almost always done through the automakers finance branch consumers assume (wrongly) that everyone with the same credit gets the same rate. It is easier to hide this from the uninformed with a MF instead of a regular interest rate that more people understand.

Last edited by voip-ninja; 07-30-2015 at 08:34 AM.
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  #180  
Old 07-30-2015, 09:01 AM
fourseriesfan fourseriesfan is offline
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I understand dealers have to make a profit too...and they can do that in the price. But I have excellent credit. Is it wrong of me to ask for the best rate? That is common with interest rates.

The sad thing is they haven't even checked my credit, yet they immediately quoted .0017. That seems almost disrespectful.
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  #181  
Old 07-30-2015, 09:24 AM
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Originally Posted by fourseriesfan View Post
I understand dealers have to make a profit too...and they can do that in the price. But I have excellent credit. Is it wrong of me to ask for the best rate? That is common with interest rates.

The sad thing is they haven't even checked my credit, yet they immediately quoted .0017. That seems almost disrespectful.
Dealer is trying to make extra profit.

Tell them that you know that they are marking up the MF for extra profit, and if they insist on doing that you expect an equal amount to be taken out of the sale price of the car.

If you agreed on $1000 over invoice for example and the dealer is marking up the MF you are really paying $2400 over invoice on the car and your decent deal is no longer a decent deal.

Or... if you don't have to buy the particular car they have on the lot, look to other dealers.

If you are buying a 2015 model it should be very heavily discounted right now, and lease should have an excellent residual so you should be getting the best deal available so that they can move it off the lot and free up space for a 2016 car.

The way I look at it is this. Dealer is entitled to a fair profit and customer is entitled to a fair deal. On the 2015s, a good price right now is probably $1000-$1500 under invoice at a larger volume dealer and maybe invoice price at a smaller dealer.

If you feel you are paying too much for the car then just walk.
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  #182  
Old 07-30-2015, 10:29 AM
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Originally Posted by fourseriesfan View Post
OK. Thanks.

It's a battle of wills right now. They called back with .0015.

It's all so dumb... I have to haggle almost every step of the way even though they know I know all the numbers and how they work together (thank you spreadsheet author).
My advice... Find a different dealer. I went through four dealers that tried to pull all sorts of nonsense to increase their profits. I asked in this very forum for a no nonsense no bs dealer and the recommended one was the real deal. Closed the deal with two emails and 15 minutes in the dealership. Easiest car purchase I ha e ever had. Don't waste your time with snake oil salesmen that want to add all sorts of bogus fees, Jack up the money factor, agree to a deal on the phone then when u get there say you misunderstood and what they really meant was thousands more than what was promised on the phone. Vote with your dollars. If we all stop buying from these dealers maybe just maybe they will change their ways.
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  #183  
Old 07-30-2015, 10:45 AM
fourseriesfan fourseriesfan is offline
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I'm definitely on the fence about what to do.

The only reason I don't go straight to one of the recommended guys and just order one is because residuals are so crappy on 2016 4-series right now, especially if you need more than 10k mi per year.

(That and, well, I dislike the chrome window trim they added back for 2016. I don't see "wrapping" the trim as a good solution in hot climate.)

Last edited by fourseriesfan; 07-30-2015 at 03:42 PM.
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  #184  
Old 07-30-2015, 02:50 PM
fourseriesfan fourseriesfan is offline
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42mo

Anyone have the residual value for 2015 4-series for 42mo 15k?

Thank you.

Update: I'm seeing 49% for this. Let me know if that is inaccurate.

Last edited by fourseriesfan; 07-30-2015 at 03:56 PM.
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  #185  
Old 07-30-2015, 05:41 PM
smalllab smalllab is offline
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Going into the dealership tomorrow, and I'm trying to get their numbers to line up with what the spreadsheet is telling me. Unfortunately I'm having trouble.

45,545 MSRP
39,824 Agreed lease price

7 MSDs
( Haven't decided on 12k vs 15k, but here is the 12k numbers he gave me)

$413 before tax, $446.18 with tax ( 8%)

I just asked for what MF and Residual he's using, since I couldn't get the numbers to add up.

But assuming .0013, and 65% residual. My payment after tax should be 369.09 (according to the spreadsheet).

Now if I put Yes on "Residual Value is Taxed", then the total gets closer ( $434 ). I'm in Southern California, and I can't seem to double check if this is correct.

Now unlike other dealers, he hasn't sent me a Lease breakdown sheet, and has just been giving me the numbers over email. I'd like to assume this isn't malicious.

Its entirely possible I'm using the excel sheet wrong, so does his numbers look reasonable?

Thanks,
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  #186  
Old 07-30-2015, 06:29 PM
argh argh is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smalllab View Post
Going into the dealership tomorrow, and I'm trying to get their numbers to line up with what the spreadsheet is telling me. Unfortunately I'm having trouble.

45,545 MSRP
39,824 Agreed lease price

7 MSDs
( Haven't decided on 12k vs 15k, but here is the 12k numbers he gave me)

$413 before tax, $446.18 with tax ( 8%)

I just asked for what MF and Residual he's using, since I couldn't get the numbers to add up.

But assuming .0013, and 65% residual. My payment after tax should be 369.09 (according to the spreadsheet).

Now if I put Yes on "Residual Value is Taxed", then the total gets closer ( $434 ). I'm in Southern California, and I can't seem to double check if this is correct.

Now unlike other dealers, he hasn't sent me a Lease breakdown sheet, and has just been giving me the numbers over email. I'd like to assume this isn't malicious.

Its entirely possible I'm using the excel sheet wrong, so does his numbers look reasonable?

Thanks,
I get the same numbers you do. California doesn't tax the residual value of the vehicle in a lease (some of the states that do are Arkansas, Maryland, Oklahoma, Texas, Virginia and I'm not sure if Illinois still does).
I also don't think your salesman is malicious. Say, if 50% of customers do never inquire about MF, RV and just go by the 'monthly', the salesman has huge incentive to just give you that, monthlies without actually providing the numbers that count.
I would assume your salesman is using a different MF, has thrown in this or that fee, or perhaps never calculated a monthly and just throws out a number. If he can get you to agree to a monthly payment without giving you the numbers that count, the finance office will make it stick.
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  #187  
Old 07-30-2015, 07:08 PM
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My advice regardless be it a lease or a purchase is to simply show the dealer your numbers. The spreadsheet in the first post should serve as a nice breakdown of invoice pricing. As well as incentives.

If you need financing, do 1 hour of legwork and bring a bank to the table - you'll get a far better interest rate than going through the dealership's "finance guy." Work for an employer with a credit union? You'll probably get the best interest rate through them unless BMW is running a financing incentive which typically only takes place over the holidays or when a new MY is about to arrive on dealer lots.

If you are leasing, leverage the information on bimmerfest for current residuals and MFs. A MF of 0.0013 has been the BMW base rate for the past few months. Residuals will fluctuate a bit - especially on the 3 series because its LCI year for them. Expect the same on the 4 series next year around the same time.

Nonetheless if they don't budge, your feet talk more than your words.
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  #188  
Old 07-30-2015, 08:29 PM
smalllab smalllab is offline
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Thanks for the feedback everyone. I was afraid that was the case. I think I jumped the gun by agreeing based on "sell price". The monthly seemed in line with other offers I was getting from other dealers (who did list the MF and residual) so I assumed they were on the up and up.

I did give a $1k deposit, for them to get the car from another dealer. I assume that will be hard to get back if they don't budge. :-(
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  #189  
Old 07-30-2015, 09:17 PM
argh argh is offline
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Originally Posted by smalllab View Post
Thanks for the feedback everyone. I was afraid that was the case. I think I jumped the gun by agreeing based on "sell price". The monthly seemed in line with other offers I was getting from other dealers (who did list the MF and residual) so I assumed they were on the up and up.

I did give a $1k deposit, for them to get the car from another dealer. I assume that will be hard to get back if they don't budge. :-(
Not necessarily. Also depends on what kind of agreement you signed, if any. Dealers deal with these kind of things on a regular basis. I think it would be sort of fair if they hold on to the deposit and refund it when they sell the car that you're backing out of.
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  #190  
Old 07-30-2015, 09:34 PM
smalllab smalllab is offline
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Not necessarily. Also depends on what kind of agreement you signed, if any. Dealers deal with these kind of things on a regular basis. I think it would be sort of fair if they hold on to the deposit and refund it when they sell the car that you're backing out of.
I didn't sign anything other than a credit application.
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  #191  
Old 07-31-2015, 09:36 AM
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voip-ninja voip-ninja is offline
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Originally Posted by smalllab View Post
I didn't sign anything other than a credit application.
The dealer doesn't want you to back out. If you feel you need to call them on it then tell them that due to their trying to inflate the money factor for additional profit you've elected to shop elsewhere.

In most states it is not legal to keep your deposit, but if you want to be a "nice guy" you can tell them that you expect the deposit back when they sell the car to someone else.
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  #192  
Old 07-31-2015, 02:50 PM
smalllab smalllab is offline
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Again, thank you everyone for the replies. So here's the numbers I got from the dealer.

They're giving me 65% residual and .0017 MF. My credit is excellent ( 780+). I should qualify for .00130 easy right?

Even at that high rate, I should be getting $400 AFTER tax, not $410 BEFORE tax.

Do you guys suggest forwarding them a copy of the spreadsheet and saying "Why aren't your numbers matching with this?"

Thank!
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  #193  
Old 07-31-2015, 02:58 PM
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voip-ninja voip-ninja is offline
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Originally Posted by smalllab View Post
Again, thank you everyone for the replies. So here's the numbers I got from the dealer.

They're giving me 65% residual and .0017 MF. My credit is excellent ( 780+). I should qualify for .00130 easy right?

Even at that high rate, I should be getting $400 AFTER tax, not $410 BEFORE tax.

Do you guys suggest forwarding them a copy of the spreadsheet and saying "Why aren't your numbers matching with this?"

Thank!
We have already recommended you talk to another dealer.

You made a big error when you gave them a deposit without having the terms completely ironed out.

.0017 MF is an inflated MF if you have top rated credit. You can easily have another dealer run your credit and verify what MF they will charge you, especially if you let them know you are already aware that current top tier MF is .0013.
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  #194  
Old 08-02-2015, 01:34 AM
fourseriesfan fourseriesfan is offline
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Talking

August MF and residuals... who's got 'em?

2015 and 2016 3-series and 4-series...

TIA
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  #195  
Old 08-02-2015, 02:31 AM
supakimchee supakimchee is offline
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Originally Posted by smalllab View Post
Again, thank you everyone for the replies. So here's the numbers I got from the dealer.

They're giving me 65% residual and .0017 MF. My credit is excellent ( 780+). I should qualify for .00130 easy right?

Even at that high rate, I should be getting $400 AFTER tax, not $410 BEFORE tax.

Do you guys suggest forwarding them a copy of the spreadsheet and saying "Why aren't your numbers matching with this?"

Thank!

You're in SoCal, you should talk to Greg Poland at Pacific BMW in Glendale.
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  #196  
Old 08-03-2015, 01:20 PM
cbarr cbarr is offline
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Anyone seen August numbers and incentive updates?

Looking for 24/36 month numbers on a diesel wagon...
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  #197  
Old 08-05-2015, 10:37 AM
argh argh is offline
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About to shop around for European Delivery. How does this look?
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  #198  
Old 08-05-2015, 02:43 PM
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dwlink dwlink is offline
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The ultimate check your BMW 3 Series F30 deal thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by argh View Post
About to shop around for European Delivery. How does this look?

Can't attest to your own calculations, but if selling price is true ED invoice + $500 then you've got a great price assuming there aren't any incentives.

If its a purchase make sure the paperwork fees are under $200 and that you are getting a competitive interest rate on any amount financed.

If its a lease, follow the comments made by the rest of herd in this thread.
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Last edited by dwlink; 08-05-2015 at 02:46 PM.
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  #199  
Old 08-06-2015, 10:12 AM
fizzguy fizzguy is offline
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Well, after some josseling my car broker didn't get me quite the deal I thought due to confusion over options. Now she's wants me to take 4% off MSRP.

2016 340i w/ Xdrive
A83 - Glacier Silver Metallic
ZDA - Driver assistance package
ZCW Cold Weather Package
LCL8 - Black Dakota Leather with Dark Oyster highlight
4FU: Fineline Anthracite Wood Trim with PearlGloss Chrome highlight
ZTP: Tech Package

MSRP: $55,295

Broker's 4% off: $53,083

My target (Invoice +$750): $52,320

I know it's not that much money difference, but is 4% off MSRP really reasonable?
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  #200  
Old 08-06-2015, 12:16 PM
argh argh is offline
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Originally Posted by fizzguy View Post
Well, after some josseling my car broker didn't get me quite the deal I thought due to confusion over options. Now she's wants me to take 4% off MSRP.

2016 340i w/ Xdrive
A83 - Glacier Silver Metallic
ZDA - Driver assistance package
ZCW Cold Weather Package
LCL8 - Black Dakota Leather with Dark Oyster highlight
4FU: Fineline Anthracite Wood Trim with PearlGloss Chrome highlight
ZTP: Tech Package

MSRP: $55,295

Broker's 4% off: $53,083

My target (Invoice +$750): $52,320

I know it's not that much money difference, but is 4% off MSRP really reasonable?
Not great, not horrible. Did you consider a BMW Drive for Team USA event for the 1K discount?
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