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  #1  
Old 10-31-2019, 01:52 PM
bmw2008_sport bmw2008_sport is offline
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Front tires wearing out much faster than rear...

Hi I have an X3 base AWD model with R18 tires on it. After 2 years and about 20,000 miles on new tires (my second set since purchase of X3) I realized that they have been wearing out in a kind of unusual way. Rear ones are still ok and have at least 10-15,000 miles of life but the front ones are almost totally worn out. I always thought that it should be the other way around. I had an alignment done right after new tires were installed and didn't do tires rotation since BMW doesn't recommend it. Any thoughts on why this could have happened. Thanks.

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2015 X3 xDrive28i
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Old 10-31-2019, 03:22 PM
Autoputzer Autoputzer is offline
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Did you get a printout from that alignment? If not, it's a pretty good bet that you didn't get a proper alignment. Also, if you have damaged or worn out suspension or steering components an alignment will not do any good. The settings (toe-in, camber, and caster) will be changing constantly as you drive down the road.

BMW's changed their minds more than once about tire rotation: don't, front-to-back only, side-to-side only, and my favorite, "Consult a BMW center." There are different rotation patterns for FWD and RWD vehicles, and for AWD vehicles based on FWD or RWD architecture.

Ideally, you should do eight rotation stints on a set of tires. That puts each tire in each corner twice. This will even out the wear caused by minor misalignment and driving conditions (e.g. taking a lot of right turn off-ramps and on-ramps fast).

Tires also work better and last longer with sufficient air pressure. Here's a cheat sheet of the types of abnormal wear and what causes them. My favorite new toy is a digital, high-resolution (0.001", 0.01mm) tread depth gauge. With high-resolution measurement, you can see abnormal wear patterns early, in time to fix them before they destroy the tires.

I'm expecting to get 50k miles out of the OE tires on Frau Putzer's G01 X3 xDrive 30i. I'll get 37k miles out of the high-performance Michelin PSS's on my 535i, and 40k miles out of the high-performance Continental DW's on my Chevy Cobalt SS. My lifetime average for a set of tires is about 55k miles.
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Old 11-06-2019, 03:25 PM
bmw2008_sport bmw2008_sport is offline
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Thanks for your reply. Yes, I got the printout. It was an official Firestone tire care location that did the alignment per BMW specs. So I am guessing that it is either luck of tire rotation or my driving style (very gentle) made them wear out that way
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Old 11-06-2019, 05:27 PM
Autoputzer Autoputzer is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bmw2008_sport View Post
Thanks for your reply. Yes, I got the printout. It was an official Firestone tire care location that did the alignment per BMW specs. So I am guessing that it is either luck of tire rotation or my driving style (very gentle) made them wear out that way


That still sounds fishy. What are the before and after numbers? Specifically, front toe-in, front camber, and caster (which is by definition only on the front)? I'm not sure what you mean by "luck of tire rotation."

Firestone tire shops' primary customers are hand-to-mouth types who are trying to get another year or two out of their worn out hooptie. They normally don't work on $50k BMW's. Also, they have an inherent conflict of interest in letting your tires wear out prematurely (an opportunity to sell you more tires).

Gentle driving should diminish outside edge wear. I absolutely flog my Chevy Cobalt SS every chance I get. During the last tire rotation, the front tires wore three times as much as the back ones. But, the average front outer circumferential channel wear was only slightly more than the average front inner circumferential channel wear. The right side wore more, because I take left turns faster than right turns. But, that eventually evens out with tire rotation. (The calculations show that one channel of one of my back tires had negative wear. Tires don't grow rubber back. That error is due to this being my first measurement with my new digital, high-resolution tread depth gauge.)
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Old 11-06-2019, 05:35 PM
Autoputzer Autoputzer is offline
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Here's what Frau Putzer's 2018 G01 X3's tires looked like at 10k miles, two rotation stints. New, they had 9/32" of depth in the inner and outer circumferential channels, and 10/32" in the two middle circumferential channels. (After these measurements, I've increased the pressures by two PSI to concentrate the wear more in the two middle circumferential channels of the tires.) Based on the wear so far, she should get around 50k miles out of these original tires. If you're not roughly in the neighborhood of that, something's wrong.
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Old 11-09-2019, 08:57 AM
bmw2008_sport bmw2008_sport is offline
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Here is my alignment printout. Does is it look right? I think maybe the tire pressure might have added to this type of wear out. Front tires have lower pressure and may be they were too low.
P.S. Sorry I meant "lack of rotation".
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Old 11-09-2019, 09:56 AM
Autoputzer Autoputzer is offline
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Yeah, those "actual" numbers look pretty good. The "before" numbers look really bad.

I had my F10 5 Series aligned last year at the dealership. The spec' for the total front toe-in (sum of the left and right) is 0 10' +- 0 12'. An angular "minute" (denoted by a single quotation mark) is 1/60th of a degree. So, the mid-point (and supposedly optimal) front toe-in for my car is 0 5' for each side. Your printout shows angles in degrees and 1/100ths of a degree. So, your 0.04 is slighly less than my 0 5' (5/60ths of a degree). If your front suspension isn't loose, your toe-in measurements are good. Your front camber looks fine, too.

Maybe you've whacked the front end back out of alignment since you got new tires and an alignment the last time. As a general rule, if you whack a curb or pothole, get an alignment afterwards, or do a precise tread depth baseline measurement, and watch the wear.

I hit a big pothole in my 535i. (Bubbaville's water department fixed a leak under the street, and just filled in the hole with clay for a few weeks. They do this to let traffic pack it down before they eventually replace the asphalt.) The car was still tracking straight, but tread depth measurements showed there was a big problem. I measure the depths in each circumferential channel of each tire during rotation. A rotation was due about 2k miles after my encounter with Bubbaville's pothole. Here's the data showing the excessive wear on three of my four tires. I was lucky to catch it early. Also, the excessive wear on the outsides from the pothole sort of cancelled the excessive wear that BMW's generally have on the inside half of the rear tires (due to a large negative camber on the rear wheels).

The pressure thing could be a factor. My one and only set of run-flats, Goodyear LS2's, wore as if they were underinflated, even when overinflated. An underinflation wear pattern is wear on both the inside and outside edges.

I set my tire pressures when the car is completely cooled down and in the early morning, the coldest part of the day and before sunlight heats up one or more tires. With a new car or a new brand and model of tire, I start at two PSI over what the door decal says. At each rotation, I measure tread depths in each circumferential channel (usually four per tire). Based on the wear patterns, I change the baseline pressure for the next rotation stint. Even with TPMS, I manually check and adjust my pressures every two or three weeks, and before and after a daylong road trip. Tires leak down somewhere around one PSI every two or three weeks.

What do the front tires' wear patterns look like?
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Old 11-10-2019, 07:40 AM
bmw2008_sport bmw2008_sport is offline
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Since the tires were really bad (front ones) and I wanted to change the brand anyway I went to the tire center yesterday to replace them and to do the alignment. What I found out is that my front toe-in was 0.18 (left) and -0.15 (right) And now I recollect that a while ago almost right after installing those at the time new tires I had a road situation where I had to slam on the brakes to avoid an accident when somebody suddenly cut in front of me. I don't remember though any potholes or any other situation that would explain why I had this bad alignment. Thanks for your advices!
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Old 11-10-2019, 07:57 AM
Autoputzer Autoputzer is offline
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Maybe those numbers in your first alignment were fake. Stomping on the brakes shouldn't affect the alignment. Or, it could be that there play in the front suspension and/or steering and your tow-in is constantly changing.

That digital tire gauge in one of my previous posts is about $10 on-line. It's really good for closely monitoring tire wear and seeing trouble before it trashes your tires. I was doing my "tire whispering" with a $4 mechanical gauge with 1/32" graduations. I'd have to eyeball 1/2 32nds and 1/4 32nds inch tread depths. The mechanical measurement didn't have enough resolution for what I was doing. But, the digital gauge works great. The resolution is so high that it picks up the random variation in tread depth along a circumferential channel. To eliminate that randomness in the data, I take all the measurements at the valve stem on the wheel.
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Old 11-10-2019, 11:53 AM
kevink4 kevink4 is offline
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I was about to buy one of these gauges, since I've been wondering about my tire depth. But while in for recall, I learned that the fronts are at 5, but the rears are at 3. The price quoted at the dealership was better than I expected. Cheaper than the Michelins I would have bought if I had tried Tire Rack. But since the car is at the dealership for a few days anyway, actually saves me some hassles (taking off work to drop car off for tires, getting ride to/from work).
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Old 11-10-2019, 06:01 PM
Jorgeramon Jorgeramon is offline
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Front tire wear

Hi there, I hope you get to read this posting. I have had six different BMW models. One of the last was an E92M3. I learned through time that the recommended front tire pressure does not work and in fact, causes the front tires to wear out fast and uneven. That was the case with 2013 X3. I run 35 psi front and exactly 38 in the rear. That solved my uneven tire wear. The vehicle runs great and I have not had any issues with it. As a matter of fact, when I was stationed in Germany I had to maintain a higher pressure anyway to be able to sustain speed in the German Autobahn. I always drove above the 130MPH mark. I hope this helps if you still have issues.
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Old 11-10-2019, 08:09 PM
Autoputzer Autoputzer is offline
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I did my tire rotation and tread depth measurements today on my 535i.

The data's showing that I have excess tire wear in the outer circumferential channels on both rear tires. The rear toe-in is pretty much in the middle of the spec' window. But, that's likely the cause of my wear, since the rear camber is where it's supposed to be. I'm taking the car in this week to get the right front camber fixed (by installing an shorter upper control arm and realigning the car). So, I'm going to have them also dial back the rear toe-in to 0 05' on both sides.

In another 5k mile rotation stint, I'll see how I'm doing. If I can get that outer rear wear under control, I'll get another 10k miles (40k miles total) out of these ultra-high-performance Michelin PSS's. Then, a new set of PS 4S's should get me to 110k miles, or to 100k miles with the next owner (one of my friends) having 10k miles before having to get tires.

Notice that my rear wear is almost three times that of my front wear. That's why I have square set-ups on all the current Putzer vehicles, so I can rotate the tires and even out the wear.
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Old 11-11-2019, 10:07 PM
Autoputzer Autoputzer is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kevink4 View Post
I was about to buy one of these gauges, since I've been wondering about my tire depth. But while in for recall, I learned that the fronts are at 5, but the rears are at 3. The price quoted at the dealership was better than I expected. Cheaper than the Michelins I would have bought if I had tried Tire Rack. But since the car is at the dealership for a few days anyway, actually saves me some hassles (taking off work to drop car off for tires, getting ride to/from work).
Make sure to get one that reads to 0.001" or 0.01mm. Some of them just report depth in integer values of 32nds inches and mm's. Their size makes them difficult to use on a tire mounted on the car. But, they're great for when the tire is off the car. A smaller mechanical tread depth gauge works best for rough measurements when the tire is on the car.

Never trust a tire salesman to measure your tread depths. They have a vested interest in under reporting the depths. One of their tricks is reporting the tread depth in millimeters instead of 32nds of an inch. 3mm equals about 4/32". But, "3" sounds worse than "4."

One of the metrics BMW NA uses for determining which dealerships get the "Center Of Excellence" award is tire sales. Everybody knows Tire Rack and Discount Tire's on-line prices are great. So, a lot of dealers are starting to charge fair prices for tires.
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Old 11-12-2019, 09:01 AM
kevink4 kevink4 is offline
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I'm at 79K miles now so these tires will last me until I make the decision to keep the car longer, or buy something new and shiny.
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Old 11-12-2019, 04:41 PM
Autoputzer Autoputzer is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kevink4 View Post
I'm at 79K miles now so these tires will last me until I make the decision to keep the car longer, or buy something new and shiny.
Yeah, I try to have my cars' life expectancy (in the Putzer fleet) line up with an integer number (2 or 3) of sets of tires depleted. In the perfect world, I sell a car the day after it hits 100k miles, and it has four tires with 3/32" of tread left on them.

My 535i came with Goodyear LS2 run-flats. I couldn't take them anymore and ditched them at 31k miles (four rotation stints) for some real tires, Michelin PSS's. It transformed the car. My goal now is to get at least 35k miles out of the PSS's, and then at least 35k miles out of a set of Michelin PS 4S's. But, if I get the alignment good, I'd be closer to 40k miles on the Michelin's, and one of my friends will get the car with 10k miles left on the tires.

Frau Putzer's X3 needs to get ~50k miles out of two sets of tires. I ordered it with all-season, square set-up, non-run-flats for this reason. Looking at the early data, I should make it to 50k miles on the OE tires. But, it will be close. As a general rule, the second set of tires doesn't last as long as the OE tires, because the suspension and steering parts loosen up and degrade the alignment. So, maybe a 52k mile/48k mile scenario would be more realistic for making it to 100k miles.

I'm getting a little more wear on the outside half of all the X3's tires. But, the OE tires are symmetric. So, I could get them flipped on the rims after the fourth rotation stint, ~25k miles, to put the better half on the higher-wearing side. I've done this trick before, with symmetric tires on a pick-up truck, and ended up getting 74k miles out of the OE tires.

Last edited by Autoputzer; 11-12-2019 at 05:20 PM.
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Old 11-13-2019, 01:53 PM
bmw2008_sport bmw2008_sport is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jorgeramon View Post
Hi there, I hope you get to read this posting. I have had six different BMW models. One of the last was an E92M3. I learned through time that the recommended front tire pressure does not work and in fact, causes the front tires to wear out fast and uneven. That was the case with 2013 X3. I run 35 psi front and exactly 38 in the rear. That solved my uneven tire wear. The vehicle runs great and I have not had any issues with it. As a matter of fact, when I was stationed in Germany I had to maintain a higher pressure anyway to be able to sustain speed in the German Autobahn. I always drove above the 130MPH mark. I hope this helps if you still have issues.
I think in my case both bad alignment and low tire pressure played a role in tires wearing out so unusually. The guys at the tire center told me that BMW is known to have very fine tuned suspension system that requires wheel alignment to be done more often the other brand vehicles... Is that true?
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Old 11-13-2019, 02:32 PM
Autoputzer Autoputzer is offline
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BMW suspensions have a lot of moving parts, they're usually made out of aluminum, and designed with a goal of keeping the weight of the car as low as possible. So, a pothole is more likely to knock a BMW out of alignment that it would a Ford F-350 pick-up truck.

From my tread depth measurements, I've found that almost all cars need more tire pressure than the door jamb decal says to achieve even tire wear. Other factors in determining the pressure car manufacturers recommend are ride quality, and the ability of the tire to maintain contact with the road when encountering a discontinuity in the pavement. Hitting an expansion bump while turning, braking, or under hard acceleration can break the tires loose, causing a skid.

I'm found Michelin's seem to be happy (even tire wear) closer to the recommended pressures. Goodyear and Continental tires seem to need more pressure. The non-run-flat Bridgestone Dueler's (SUV tires) that came on Frau Putzer's X3 seem to be wearing evenly at just two PSI over the decal pressures.

Last edited by Autoputzer; 11-13-2019 at 03:26 PM.
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Old 11-13-2019, 04:48 PM
kevink4 kevink4 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bmw2008_sport View Post
I think in my case both bad alignment and low tire pressure played a role in tires wearing out so unusually. The guys at the tire center told me that BMW is known to have very fine tuned suspension system that requires wheel alignment to be done more often the other brand vehicles... Is that true?
According to Tech Talk in Roundel magazine you generally don't need alignment as often as repair shops want.

It was recommended years ago when I bought new tires that I get alignment. At the time I didn't know whether it was done as part of BMW's maintenance so I didn't. (It isn't covered). I just replaced tires with 50K miles on them, and they showed no signs of alignment issues, and my car drives straight down the highway without a drift.
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Old 11-13-2019, 06:37 PM
Autoputzer Autoputzer is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kevink4 View Post
According to Tech Talk in Roundel magazine you generally don't need alignment as often as repair shops want.

It was recommended years ago when I bought new tires that I get alignment. At the time I didn't know whether it was done as part of BMW's maintenance so I didn't. (It isn't covered). I just replaced tires with 50K miles on them, and they showed no signs of alignment issues, and my car drives straight down the highway without a drift.
Alignments are cheap compared to tires. If there's any uneven wear, an alignment should extend the life of the next set of tires.

My 123k mile Chevy Cobalt SS has never had an alignment, and all is well. Tire wear is more even than on Frau Putzer's 15k mile X3.

My 535i suffered a massive pothole, and is now showing excessive wear on the outer half of the rear tires after an alignment pretty much to all the midpoints of the BMW's spec's. If I project the current wear patterns forward ~40k miles on a new, $1200 set of Michelin tires, the tread depths would be 1.7/32" on the outer channels, and between 4/32" and 5/32" on the other three channels, on all four tires. So, in my case, I need to get another alignment and move the settings to something other than the midpoints of the BMW spec's. Doing so could get me at least another 10k miles out of my next set of tires.
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Old 11-26-2019, 01:13 PM
bigtimeminime bigtimeminime is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Autoputzer View Post
Did you get a printout from that alignment? If not, it's a pretty good bet that you didn't get a proper alignment. Also, if you have damaged or worn out suspension or steering components an alignment will not do any good. The settings (toe-in, camber, and caster) will be changing constantly as you drive down the road.

BMW's changed their minds more than once about tire rotation: don't, front-to-back only, side-to-side only, and my favorite, "Consult a BMW center." There are different rotation patterns for FWD and RWD vehicles, and for AWD vehicles based on FWD or RWD architecture.

Ideally, you should do eight rotation stints on a set of tires. That puts each tire in each corner twice. This will even out the wear caused by minor misalignment and driving conditions (e.g. taking a lot of right turn off-ramps and on-ramps fast).

Tires also work better and last longer with sufficient air pressure. Here's a cheat sheet of the types of abnormal wear and what causes them. My favorite new toy is a digital, high-resolution (0.001", 0.01mm) tread depth gauge. With high-resolution measurement, you can see abnormal wear patterns early, in time to fix them before they destroy the tires.

I'm expecting to get 50k miles out of the OE tires on Frau Putzer's G01 X3 xDrive 30i. I'll get 37k miles out of the high-performance Michelin PSS's on my 535i, and 40k miles out of the high-performance Continental DW's on my Chevy Cobalt SS. My lifetime average for a set of tires is about 55k miles.
There is no OEM adjustment for Camber and Caster which is essential
to adjust tire contact angles for even tire wear.

Only adjustment is Toe. Excess toe adjustment only worsens tire wear!

See KMAC Camber Caster website, they manufacture a full front and rear
range of adjusters.
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  #21  
Old 11-26-2019, 03:30 PM
Autoputzer Autoputzer is offline
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BMW sells front knuckles (for McPherson strut cars) and upper control arms for double-wishbone cars with +0.5 and -0.5 degrees of front camber. I just had an -0.5 degree upper control arm installed on my 535i to get the front camber right after hitting a big pothole... $800, including an alignment.
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