signs of F30 N20/N26 timing chain issue, and OCI to the rescue? - Page 9 - Bimmerfest - BMW Forums



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  #201  
Old 01-17-2020, 10:53 PM
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Folgen Sie Mir Folgen Sie Mir is offline
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I weigh 180 & drive the xdrive....if someone drives a RWD and they weigh 400lbs will it break the TC due to stress induced by the extra weight?
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  #202  
Old 01-18-2020, 01:34 AM
namelessman namelessman is offline
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Originally Posted by Folgen Sie Mir View Post
I weigh 180 & drive the xdrive....if someone drives a RWD and they weigh 400lbs will it break the TC due to stress induced by the extra weight?
Great question, 2 passengers of 200lb do add 400lb on RWD/xDrive.

One simple observation is that, based on the failures, some N20/N26 TC + guard rails are exerted out of spec.

What is BMW's spec on N20/N26 TC + guard rails?

In that design spec, what is max weight, max lb-ft, HP, lowest engine oil viscosity, max OCI, ASS operating frequency, TC accelerate/decelerate angular torque(?), stress parameters of plastic parts and metal links, etc, etc, etc?

What parameters are missing from BMW's system simulation of this design? What margins were built in to the design/simulation, e.g., 100%, 200%, 500%?

Without BMW disclosing its findings, all that owners can do are to speculate and formulate best guesses based on anecdotal experience from affected owners and empirical observations from shops/dealers.
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  #203  
Old 01-18-2020, 10:51 AM
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[QUOTE=namelessman;13222885]From an engineering perspective the root cause probably was determined long ago, and failure % computed with extreme precision.

[QUOTE]
In the meantime, another fellow N26(with PZEV warranty) owner at work plans to not bring car to dealer until CEL, even if engine whines crazy.

His rationale is that if CEL is not on, BMW will not pay for repair. But when engine blows(or is close to blow) due to TC jumping teeth, CEL will almost be inevitable(at least that's theory).

So just wait for the magic CEL, and make BMW pay for engine replacement.

This is not my preferred strategy, but it sounds logical.
[UNQUOTE]

I assume you are friendly with your co-worker. If so, please knock some sense in to him; BMW will indeed pay for new TC based on an audio recording of the whine noise matching a file they already have. I assume he is within extended warranty limitations.

Most failures happen this way: plastic bits from TC guide block the oil pump intake, low oil pressure, iDrive warning message and engine shutdown - all within a minute or so. During this minute or so, the timing goes out of wack and a piston touches a valve. That will be $14k for a new motor, Sir.

"Friends don't let friends wait for the CEL" - it may never go on.
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  #204  
Old 01-18-2020, 03:13 PM
DadzBmerN20 DadzBmerN20 is offline
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I thought i saw somewhere can't remember if it was off the YT channel of ThicF30, but certain years before 02/13' and older might have that bad design. Honestly i asked my BMW Service Advisor about this and he said it sometimes makes a distinct noises and if you want the diagnostic it would cost like a $100+ or so, i said never mind and mine was made in 06/13 lol. And i only have currently 43k miles on it, barely use it...
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  #205  
Old 01-18-2020, 09:15 PM
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Originally Posted by DBU View Post
I assume you are friendly with your co-worker. If so, please knock some sense in to him; BMW will indeed pay for new TC based on an audio recording of the whine noise matching a file they already have. I assume he is within extended warranty limitations.

Most failures happen this way: plastic bits from TC guide block the oil pump intake, low oil pressure, iDrive warning message and engine shutdown - all within a minute or so. During this minute or so, the timing goes out of wack and a piston touches a valve. That will be $14k for a new motor, Sir.

"Friends don't let friends wait for the CEL" - it may never go on.
His N26 should be a 2014 with 80k+, so his car is out of 7 years/70000 miles ELW.

However CA and oher PZEV states still offer 15 years/150000 miles emission warranty, and that needs a CEL to trigger TC coverage.
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  #206  
Old 01-19-2020, 07:09 PM
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Originally Posted by namelessman View Post
Yes there is a new part# starting 1/2015. The assumption is that F30 built after 1/2015 will get revised chain

Do note there is no formal acknowledgement from BMWNA of this issue, even though anecdotal comments from foreman and tech indicate otherwise.
my 320 4 cycl 9/15 production date has the orange chain guides at 18k miles
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  #207  
Old 01-19-2020, 07:55 PM
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Mine was whining pretty loud but when they replaced everything they said the plastic guide was not broken but the timing chain was definitely stretched. XDrive 68,500 mi.
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  #208  
Old 01-19-2020, 08:12 PM
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Originally Posted by blue boy View Post
my 320 4 cycl 9/15 production date has the orange chain guides at 18k miles
The white color plastic guide does turn brown/orange in color after some heat cycles.
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  #209  
Old 01-19-2020, 08:15 PM
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Originally Posted by backpackerx View Post
Mine was whining pretty loud but when they replaced everything they said the plastic guide was not broken but the timing chain was definitely stretched. XDrive 68,500 mi.
Did your dealer offer any explanation of the failure?
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  #210  
Old 01-19-2020, 09:20 PM
backpackerx backpackerx is offline
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No, they just diagnosed it as a stretched timing chain and replaced it, the guides, the tensioner, and the oil chain. I specifically asked the service advisor if they found any plastic because I was worried about it getting in the oil pick up and he said no.
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  #211  
Old 01-19-2020, 10:04 PM
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Originally Posted by backpackerx View Post
No, they just diagnosed it as a stretched timing chain and replaced it, the guides, the tensioner, and the oil chain. I specifically asked the service advisor if they found any plastic because I was worried about it getting in the oil pick up and he said no.
Good input. Iím going to replace my timing chain tensioner to the 2016 version. It doubles the amount of spring force and has a larger hole for oil passage. Hopefully this will increase its life span despite the stretched timing chain.

There were mixed messages that the oil pump chain is the real culprit but doesnít seem to be the case.

My warranty ends this month and I only have 42k miles on a 2013 model.
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  #212  
Old 01-19-2020, 10:11 PM
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Originally Posted by TopQuark View Post
Good input. Iím going to replace my timing chain tensioner to the 2016 version. It doubles the amount of spring force and has a larger hole for oil passage. Hopefully this will increase its life span despite the stretched timing chain.

There were mixed messages that the oil pump chain is the real culprit but doesnít seem to be the case.

My warranty ends this month and I only have 42k miles on a 2013 model.
Is there a link to any spec that says new tensioner has 2x amount of spring force?
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  #213  
Old 01-20-2020, 08:41 AM
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I am not aware of such a link. But when I changed my tensioner, I noticed the spring on the new one being much harder to depress. And yes, the hole for the oil inlet is obviously larger. Check out the pictures in my DIY, which I have posted several times under various threads re. TC issue.
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  #214  
Old 01-20-2020, 01:02 PM
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Originally Posted by DBU View Post
I am not aware of such a link. But when I changed my tensioner, I noticed the spring on the new one being much harder to depress. And yes, the hole for the oil inlet is obviously larger. Check out the pictures in my DIY, which I have posted several times under various threads re. TC issue.
My strategy(and per foreman's suggestion) is to not touch it until settlement conferences are over. Once the settlement(or lack of and subsequent trial) outcome gets clear, then the next step will be evaluated.

As of right now, my TC and guard rail cold this morning still does not have slack, so the factory original tensioner seems to be still OK.
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  #215  
Old 01-20-2020, 04:13 PM
vkat87 vkat87 is offline
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Originally Posted by namelessman View Post
As of right now, my TC and guard rail cold this morning still does not have slack, so the factory original tensioner seems to be still OK.
Are you tugging on the TC underneath the oil cap to check for slack? How are you checking the guard rail?
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  #216  
Old 01-20-2020, 05:41 PM
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Originally Posted by vkat87 View Post
Are you tugging on the TC underneath the oil cap to check for slack? How are you checking the guard rail?
Yes just open the oil cap and then reach in and move TC + guard rail around to test for play(both parts have no play/slag on mine),
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  #217  
Old 01-20-2020, 10:52 PM
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Originally Posted by namelessman View Post
Is there a link to any spec that says new tensioner has 2x amount of spring force?
Here you go. Not exactly 2x. More like 1.6x. The tensioner is the same part as for n20:


Last edited by TopQuark; 01-20-2020 at 11:48 PM.
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  #218  
Old 01-20-2020, 10:58 PM
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Originally Posted by namelessman View Post
As of right now, my TC and guard rail cold this morning still does not have slack, so the factory original tensioner seems to be still OK.
The chain could have a large slack or none at all when the engine is not running. The rod in the tensioner pushes out only when the engine is running as oil pressure increases.

Try cranking the engine. At some point, the chain seems loose but that is normal.
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  #219  
Old 01-20-2020, 11:34 PM
namelessman namelessman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TopQuark View Post
The chain could have a large slack or none at all when the engine is not running. The rod in the tensioner pushes out only when the engine is running as oil pressure increases.

Try cranking the engine. At some point, the chain seems loose but that is normal.
My understanding is that the spring keeps TC snug when engine off, and the oil pressure takes over when engine on and oil pump on, right?

When engine on, there should be no TC slack or else there will be high pitch whine.

Local foreman did check my TC three month ago, and he just stuck finger through oil cap opening after engine off, and confrimed no TC nor guard rail movement while hot.

Last edited by namelessman; 01-20-2020 at 11:37 PM.
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  #220  
Old 01-21-2020, 09:26 AM
namelessman namelessman is offline
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Originally Posted by TopQuark View Post
Here you go. Not exactly 2x. More like 1.6x. The tensioner is the same part as for n20:
Great video. It probably is a good idea to swap in even with no TC issue.
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  #221  
Old 01-21-2020, 10:38 AM
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The music on the video sounds like an 80s porno. Not that I've ever watched one.
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  #222  
Old 01-21-2020, 04:51 PM
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My understanding is that the spring keeps TC snug when engine off, and the oil pressure takes over when engine on and oil pump on, right?
That's correct. Also snug when engine is hot. Oftentimes, the cam lobes can be in a position that make it loose too. Futher discussions here:

https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...4&postcount=11
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  #223  
Old 01-21-2020, 06:31 PM
namelessman namelessman is offline
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Originally Posted by TopQuark View Post
That's correct. Also snug when engine is hot. Oftentimes, the cam lobes can be in a position that make it loose too. Futher discussions here:

https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...4&postcount=11
Wow that thread says(quoting a BMW field engineer?):

"The n20 engine when the cam lobes come to a rest vertically to the valves (very rare instance) they will rotate back slightly and cause slack in the chain"

Can this very rare instance be missing from BMW's system simulation, and hence lead to real-life timing chain failure?!?
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  #224  
Old 01-24-2020, 11:53 AM
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Anyone have info on part cost and labor hours involved in doing a preventive timing chain job?
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  #225  
Old 01-24-2020, 01:18 PM
JoeyMcMahon666 JoeyMcMahon666 is offline
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2700-3500. xDrive would be closer to the 3500 from the quotes I received.


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