4D16 DeNOx System efficiency efficiency at low - 2012 BMW X5 diesel - Bimmerfest - BMW Forums



Go Back   Bimmerfest - BMW Forums > BMW Model Discussions > X Series > X5 E70 (2007 - 2013)

X5 E70 (2007 - 2013)
E70 BMW X5 produced between 2007 and 2013. Discuss the E70 X5 with other BMW owners here.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 06-18-2019, 07:10 AM
CoolBRO CoolBRO is offline
Registered User
Location: Los ángeles
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Posts: 11
Mein Auto: 2008 bmw 528i
4D16 DeNOx System efficiency efficiency at low - 2012 BMW X5 diesel

Hello everyone!

After getting my first diesel car, I got a code “ 4D16 DeNOx System efficiency efficiency at low “
I have no idea what to do?
I have a 2012 BMW X5 diesel at 95k miles.

Where should I start digging in?
What to troubleshoot first?
Should I take it to bmw dealer? Some people says it might be NOx sensor and it’s covered till 120k miles by BMW. Is that true?
Will I pay for diagnostics at dealer?
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #2  
Old 06-18-2019, 10:49 AM
Doug Huffman's Avatar
Doug Huffman Doug Huffman is online now
Nuclear engineer
Location: Washington Island, Wisconsin, thru Death's Door
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 13,911
Mein Auto: CPO2012 X5 35d M57(E70)
Most likely NOx sensors. SCR low efficiency is a conclusion based on poor low effect of an injection of DEF as measured by the before and after NOx sensors. You will pay for diagnostics one way or another. The sensors are under 10Y / 120 M extended warranty. You are not smart enough to "troubleshoot" SCR
__________________
Scepticism and Animal Faith (1923)
Scepticism is the chastity of the intellect, and it is shameful to surrender it too soon or to the first comer: there is nobility in preserving it coolly and proudly through long youth, until at last, in the ripeness of instinct and discretion, it can be safely exchanged for fidelity and happiness.
(The Works of George Santayana p. 65)

Eschew eristical argumentation. I am responsible for what I write, not for your understanding of it.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 06-18-2019, 05:46 PM
ard ard is offline
Resident Curmudgeon
Location: Sierra foothills, California USA
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 20,830
Mein Auto: '12 X5 35d/E39M5/996TTX50
So, by your post it seems you have done a little bit of searching..... and uncovered the universal dilemma...

Part may be covered by BMWNA warranty...but the gatekeeper to said warranty is the (pissant) BMW dealership. and how do you 'manage' them to avoid screwing?

It isnt just 'the diagnostics' you pay for- heck, an hour at $165 would be cheap to get the stuff covered....the real horror is paying super-retail for whatever parts they want to blast at the problem as they 'replace their way to a diagnosis.


Well, one method is to have owned the car (and or other BMWs) for years and developed a relationship with your favorite SA. Seems that isnt an option.

In terms of self-diagnosis, dont take Dougs comment the wrong way. Few of us *are* smart enough to do silver bullet diagnoses of the BMW diesel emissions system. You need a BMW computer; access to test plans; all that good stuff.

Here is my suggestion....

1. ID a 'owner friendly' SA at your local dealer. Word of mouth, online reputation.
2. Drop by for a chat. see what they say. Stress that paying for a diagnosis is one thing, but with these diesels/emissions, you dont want to pay for a shopping list of $4500 in 'maybe' parts. Ask point blank, do you guys have a genius BMW "DIESEL guy"?

All I got. Maybe someone here has an LA recommendation?
__________________
Alignment here: The Definitive Alignment Thread

OE is Original Equipment aka 'BMW Original Parts' aka 'What you buy at the BMW dealer with a BMW label'

OEM is Original Equipment Manufacturer... EITHER the company that made the OE part or.... A part this is identical to the OE part, but is sold by the OEM under their own label


OEM is not what BMW sells


http://www.bimmerzone.com/category/T...ricks_OEM.html

https://www.turnermotorsport.com/t-OEvsOEM
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #4  
Old 01-18-2020, 05:33 AM
subdude subdude is offline
Registered User
Location: Connecticut
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 70
Mein Auto: X5 Diesel
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Huffman View Post
Most likely NOx sensors. SCR low efficiency is a conclusion based on poor low effect of an injection of DEF as measured by the before and after NOx sensors. You will pay for diagnostics one way or another. The sensors are under 10Y / 120 M extended warranty. You are not smart enough to "troubleshoot" SCR
That is bad news, I was hoping to be able to parse out a few things. I have just replaced my SCR injection valve and was successful at eliminating the respective code/service engine light. Now I am intermittently getting 4D16. I had the idea it may just be bad DEF and recently refilled both active and storage tanks with fresh fluid. I have noticed that the code can be present without setting the service engine soon light so I am sure there is a time threshold. Makes me think it is something other than a sensor.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 01-18-2020, 06:18 AM
Doug Huffman's Avatar
Doug Huffman Doug Huffman is online now
Nuclear engineer
Location: Washington Island, Wisconsin, thru Death's Door
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 13,911
Mein Auto: CPO2012 X5 35d M57(E70)
There is no time parameter in any SCR function that I have read about.

There is no such thing as "bad DEF." DEF properly stored is very stable. It is a solution of distilled water and urea, which is extremely soluble in water; 1:1 w/w at STP and 4:1 at some reasonably elevated temperature. There is no 'use by' in the ISO specification.
__________________
Scepticism and Animal Faith (1923)
Scepticism is the chastity of the intellect, and it is shameful to surrender it too soon or to the first comer: there is nobility in preserving it coolly and proudly through long youth, until at last, in the ripeness of instinct and discretion, it can be safely exchanged for fidelity and happiness.
(The Works of George Santayana p. 65)

Eschew eristical argumentation. I am responsible for what I write, not for your understanding of it.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 01-18-2020, 06:37 AM
subdude subdude is offline
Registered User
Location: Connecticut
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 70
Mein Auto: X5 Diesel
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Huffman View Post
There is no time parameter in any SCR function that I have read about.

There is no such thing as "bad DEF." DEF properly stored is very stable. It is a solution of distilled water and urea, which is extremely soluble in water; 1:1 w/w at STP and 4:1 at some reasonably elevated temperature. There is no 'use by' in the ISO specification.
I know what DEF is. DEF manufacturers have storage and shelf life recommendations. I do not control those aspects and I have not ruled it out as a cause(although I would agree it is unlikely). I have also recently replaced the dosing valve so if improper spray pattern is occurring it could affect the size of the droplets that form resulting in reduced surface area for the chemical reaction to take place. It probably is a sensor but the intermittent engine light it confusing me. I do have a Carly so maybe I can pull up those PIDs

Last edited by subdude; 01-18-2020 at 06:39 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 01-18-2020, 06:51 AM
Doug Huffman's Avatar
Doug Huffman Doug Huffman is online now
Nuclear engineer
Location: Washington Island, Wisconsin, thru Death's Door
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 13,911
Mein Auto: CPO2012 X5 35d M57(E70)
Manufacturers want to sell more product.

The dosing valve does not create the injection spray, the injector nozzle does that. A couple of years ago there was a spate of complaints of clogging injectors, and there is a TIS caution about installing the injector backwards as I recall.
__________________
Scepticism and Animal Faith (1923)
Scepticism is the chastity of the intellect, and it is shameful to surrender it too soon or to the first comer: there is nobility in preserving it coolly and proudly through long youth, until at last, in the ripeness of instinct and discretion, it can be safely exchanged for fidelity and happiness.
(The Works of George Santayana p. 65)

Eschew eristical argumentation. I am responsible for what I write, not for your understanding of it.

Last edited by Doug Huffman; 01-18-2020 at 06:54 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 01-18-2020, 07:48 AM
hsindogg's Avatar
hsindogg hsindogg is online now
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: Potomac, MD
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 614
Mein Auto: 2011 X5 35d | 2020 530xe
If it's your SCR Cat, expect a $1,400 invoice.
__________________
Sparkling Bronze 2011 X5 xDrive35d
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 01-18-2020, 05:04 PM
subdude subdude is offline
Registered User
Location: Connecticut
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 70
Mein Auto: X5 Diesel
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Huffman View Post
Manufacturers want to sell more product.

The dosing valve does not create the injection spray, the injector nozzle does that. A couple of years ago there was a spate of complaints of clogging injectors, and there is a TIS caution about installing the injector backwards as I recall.

The dosing valve and nozzle are a unitary assembly and the notch in the mating flange makes it difficult to install incorrectly. I am aware of what the purpose of a nozzle is, give me some credit here.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 01-19-2020, 12:59 PM
ChrisM011 ChrisM011 is offline
Registered User
Location: Los Angeles
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 74
Mein Auto: e70 X5d, e36 M3
DEF absolutely has a shelf life that is dependent on temperature. The higher the storage temperature (say, in the Active or Passive tank of our vehicles and exposed to very hot summer temperatures) the shorter the life of the fluid. You are on the right track to suspect “bad” DEF.

The only other advice I can give is to reiterate what has already been said-you are still covered under warranty for some of these items (maybe?). I believe the website to check is bmw-rp.com. You can then enter your vehicle information and use the pull-down menu to see what is covered. You can also call BMW customer service and have them check to see what components are still covered by the extended warranty for your particular car.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 01-19-2020, 01:22 PM
ard ard is offline
Resident Curmudgeon
Location: Sierra foothills, California USA
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 20,830
Mein Auto: '12 X5 35d/E39M5/996TTX50
OP hasn't been back in 7 months....

FWIW
__________________
Alignment here: The Definitive Alignment Thread

OE is Original Equipment aka 'BMW Original Parts' aka 'What you buy at the BMW dealer with a BMW label'

OEM is Original Equipment Manufacturer... EITHER the company that made the OE part or.... A part this is identical to the OE part, but is sold by the OEM under their own label


OEM is not what BMW sells


http://www.bimmerzone.com/category/T...ricks_OEM.html

https://www.turnermotorsport.com/t-OEvsOEM
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 01-19-2020, 02:09 PM
ChrisM011 ChrisM011 is offline
Registered User
Location: Los Angeles
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 74
Mein Auto: e70 X5d, e36 M3
Thank you, ard. Probably should have checked the date prior to a fast reply.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 01-19-2020, 04:04 PM
Doug Huffman's Avatar
Doug Huffman Doug Huffman is online now
Nuclear engineer
Location: Washington Island, Wisconsin, thru Death's Door
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 13,911
Mein Auto: CPO2012 X5 35d M57(E70)
Preparing to go south in a month ...

... I will top off my Passive SCR tank next week.

I just went out into my garage to make sure I have enough DEF on hand, a full 2.5 gallon jug and a bit in the jug from September. They are both Old World Industries Peak Auto part number DEF002 with a July 2017 date of manufacture.

Oh NOES it might be out of date, had been when I bought it. Maybe I better get ready to sue. /sarcasm

Then I looked at the brand website. “Storage temperature between 12°F and 86°F are recommended to maintain optimal shelf life of up to two years. If BlueDEF freezes, its efficacy will not be effected upon thawing.“

https://peakauto.com/wp-content/uplo...Updates_r6.pdf
__________________
Scepticism and Animal Faith (1923)
Scepticism is the chastity of the intellect, and it is shameful to surrender it too soon or to the first comer: there is nobility in preserving it coolly and proudly through long youth, until at last, in the ripeness of instinct and discretion, it can be safely exchanged for fidelity and happiness.
(The Works of George Santayana p. 65)

Eschew eristical argumentation. I am responsible for what I write, not for your understanding of it.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 01-21-2020, 11:21 AM
Doug Huffman's Avatar
Doug Huffman Doug Huffman is online now
Nuclear engineer
Location: Washington Island, Wisconsin, thru Death's Door
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 13,911
Mein Auto: CPO2012 X5 35d M57(E70)
18 31 140. Removing and installing mixer for exhaust system (M57T2, N57 with SCR)

Quote:
Originally Posted by subdude View Post
The dosing valve and nozzle are a unitary assembly and the notch in the mating flange makes it difficult to install incorrectly. I am aware of what the purpose of a nozzle is, give me some credit here.
”Important!
The mixer can be installed the wrong way round. The marked arrow must point in the exhaust gas direction of flow.”

https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/e...ystem/2Sl9VNQa
__________________
Scepticism and Animal Faith (1923)
Scepticism is the chastity of the intellect, and it is shameful to surrender it too soon or to the first comer: there is nobility in preserving it coolly and proudly through long youth, until at last, in the ripeness of instinct and discretion, it can be safely exchanged for fidelity and happiness.
(The Works of George Santayana p. 65)

Eschew eristical argumentation. I am responsible for what I write, not for your understanding of it.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 01-21-2020, 05:00 PM
mms08723 mms08723 is offline
Registered User
Location: Brick NJ
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 21
Mein Auto: 2011 X5 i35d
Thanks

Based upon the information in this thread I took my 2011 X5 35D to my local BMW dealership and they replaced the SCR tank for free. If I didn't research this forum I would not have known the warranty was extended to 125K. Thanks again for saving me a couple of grand! Appreciated!
Reply With Quote
Reply

See More Related BMW Stories


Forum Navigation
Go Back   Bimmerfest - BMW Forums > BMW Model Discussions > X Series > X5 E70 (2007 - 2013)
Today's Posts Search
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On



Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 11:08 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
© 2001- VerticalScope Inc. All rights reserved.