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  #1  
Old 01-12-2005, 12:36 AM
azurribaggio azurribaggio is offline
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Cai?

Why is cold air better vs hot air when talking intakes?
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  #2  
Old 01-12-2005, 12:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by azurribaggio
Why is cold air better vs hot air when talking intakes?
An internal combustion engine makes power by burning fuel and air.
Cool air is denser than hot air.
The denser the air is, the more of it (by mass) you can cram into your engine.
The more air (by mass) you cram into your engine, the more fuel you can burn in your engine.
More air + more fuel = more power.
By extension, cool air plus more fuel (your fuel injection system handles this) equals more power.
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  #3  
Old 01-12-2005, 06:20 AM
tierfreund tierfreund is offline
 
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But its a popular misconception that the devices sold as CAI will actually get colder air into your engine. Many people think that the original input will collect warm air since it is draws air from right in front of the radiator.

It doesnt. Moving at pedestrian speed or more will have the stock intake gather air with ambient temperature. Same as any other intake.

Only cars with Forced injection need to bother with air temp since the compressor or turbo will heat up the air forced into the engine considerably, FI often uses intercoolers that will cool down the allready compressed air before it enters the engine.

Naturally aspirated engines have to live with the ambient air temp. (Go for some dry ice in the intake if you really want to make a difference

CAI is for show and sound. Not for performance.
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  #4  
Old 01-12-2005, 12:20 PM
adc adc is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tierfreund
CAI is for show and sound. Not for performance.
Opinion or fact?

Do you subscribe to the opinion that you cannot - absolutely, no way, impossible - improve on a BMW's performance? Or did you install a CAI and have dyno graphs of before and after?

Some CAI manufacturers actually did test their products and provide said graphs.

I don't mean to sound sarcastic but I am beginning to hate the level of misinformation floating around this forum. If you have numbers, post them!


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  #5  
Old 01-12-2005, 12:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tierfreund
CAI is for show and sound. Not for performance.
Are you referring to all CAIs or just one that youve tried? If youre referring to all of them, well, you would be wrong.
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  #6  
Old 01-12-2005, 02:59 PM
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I was hoping he was saying that a CAI (BenFer, Dinan, etc) doesn't do much/any better than any other type of performance intake (short ram, ECIS, aFe, Conforti, etc). If, however, the meaning is that a CAI (or any intake) doesn't do jack over the stock intake...
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  #7  
Old 01-12-2005, 10:25 PM
f ll th bl nks f ll th bl nks is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tierfreund
But its a popular misconception that the devices sold as CAI will actually get colder air into your engine. Many people think that the original input will collect warm air since it is draws air from right in front of the radiator.

It doesnt. Moving at pedestrian speed or more will have the stock intake gather air with ambient temperature. Same as any other intake.

Only cars with Forced injection need to bother with air temp since the compressor or turbo will heat up the air forced into the engine considerably, FI often uses intercoolers that will cool down the allready compressed air before it enters the engine.

Naturally aspirated engines have to live with the ambient air temp. (Go for some dry ice in the intake if you really want to make a difference

CAI is for show and sound. Not for performance.
mmmm...

CAIs in theory draw in air thats a few degrees colder.
taking into account how hot air is once it passes thru a turbo, even after cooled by an intercooler, makes those few degrees worthless.

CAI actually benefits a naturally aspirated engine more than one with forced induction because the air isnt super heated by a turbo or blower.

does it benefit it much? not really. but some are dyno proven. CAIs are actually good supporting mods. throw one in with a chip and exhaust and youll see decent gains.

also aftermarket intakes are good because they help the engine breathe better in the higher RPMs since theyre less restictive.

CAIs arent worthless. theyre just overestimated and or misunderstood.
if its paired with a turbo, then its only for show and sound.

Last edited by f ll th bl nks; 01-12-2005 at 10:27 PM.
  #8  
Old 01-13-2005, 01:14 AM
tierfreund tierfreund is offline
 
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I really like the way my post stirs up a discussion about CAIs. Ill throw the hat back into the ring.

Show me numbers indicating performance gains by a CAI.

But not by the people that sell or install them. By an independant party. It is way to easy to make a dyno show different results...

And then, Im not saying a CAI cannot bring performance gains. Im just doubtfull, that it is really a function of lower temperature. Nobody has yet been able to explain to me why the air temp should be lower with a CAI than with the stock intake.

I believe, performance gains by a CAI are mostly due to less restricted airflow. But that comes at a cost. Usually the CAI will have a less efficient air filter, putting more strain on the MAF.

I simply believe (but cannot prove), that CAIs are popular mods because, they make an obvious aural difference, are easy to install (easily a DIY), are not too expensive and look good when you open the hood.

And no, Im not the kind of fanatic that thinks everything BMW does is perfect. Whenever costs dictate a less than perfect factory solution, it is easy to improve with a simple mod. Example: silver visions, icelink instead of ipodyourbmw, aftermarket speakers instead of h/k, loctite on the nuts holding the window regulator...

But the intake? Somehow the stock intake seems way more expertly designed than all the CAIs I have seen.

Next will be a post saying, you need Software to bring out the best of a CAI. Duh... You can improve the SW for the stock intake by the same margin.

YFI, CAIs are virtually unknown in Europe as a mod (or rather, they were a slightly popular mod about 10-15 years ago). Are we really such ignorant fools as to oversee an obvious performance mod ? No proof at all, but interesting...
The current european trend in perf mods is chipping. Especially on diesels.

Go ahead, flame

Last edited by tierfreund; 01-13-2005 at 01:40 AM.
  #9  
Old 01-13-2005, 01:38 AM
tierfreund tierfreund is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adc
Opinion or fact?

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Opinion of course. facts are rare on these issues
  #10  
Old 01-13-2005, 07:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tierfreund
Show me numbers indicating performance gains by a CAI.
http://forums.bimmerfest.com/showthread.php?t=76193


Have you ever installed an intake on your car? If so, which brand?
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  #11  
Old 01-13-2005, 07:36 AM
Wagon Man Wagon Man is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tierfreund
I really like the way my post stirs up a discussion about CAIs. Ill throw the hat back into the ring.

Show me numbers indicating performance gains by a CAI.

But not by the people that sell or install them. By an independant party. It is way to easy to make a dyno show different results...

Go ahead, flame
Do a search, first, next time

http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=209793
  #12  
Old 01-13-2005, 09:20 AM
tierfreund tierfreund is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy
http://forums.bimmerfest.com/showthread.php?t=76193


Have you ever installed an intake on your car? If so, which brand?
>May I quote from the thread:

had the car dynod again today (1/8/05). Last month I made the following modifications and put over 1,000 miles on the car to let the computer adapt.

The mods :

- Conforti Cold Air Intake
- UUC TSE3 Exhaust
- UUC Underdrive Pulleys
- 15 lb 17 x 8 SSR Comp Wheels (wheel/tire combo is 9lbs lighter then stock)
- 3.07 Limited Slip Differential (same final drive gear ratio as stock, would make no diff on dyno)

Dyno results :

The biggest gain was at 2,300 RPM. I gained about 8 horsepower and 18 ft lbs of torque. Peak horsepower went from 207 to 209 (2 HP gain). Peak torque went from 200 to 207 (7 ft lb gain).

END OF QOUTE

So, a change in exhaust, underdrive pulleys AND a CAI get a measured gain in max hp of 2!

The pulleys alone should be good for that. Plus 2 hp at 207 in all is very much within measurement error margin.
And yes, Ive had a CAI on a Golf MKIII 1.8 in the early 90s, but never on any BMW. Nobody has shown me any convincing evidence to the benefits so far.

Please dont take any of this personally. Im not attacking anyone for doing whatever they care for to their cars. All I am stating is that "I" do not believe in measurable performance gains through CAIs (at least not as a function of lower temp, lower air resistance, maybe). And noone has been able to convince me otherwise so far.

And as for "do a search": I did not open this thread. Somebody opened it asking for the benefits of cold air when it comes to the performance of internal combustion engines. His question was aswered very well in the first reply. And all I said was: be weary of the advice "get a CAI immediatley" that I knew was going to follow.

Last edited by tierfreund; 01-13-2005 at 09:29 AM.
  #13  
Old 01-13-2005, 10:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tierfreund
So, a change in exhaust, underdrive pulleys AND a CAI get a measured gain in max hp of 2!

The pulleys alone should be good for that. Plus 2 hp at 207 in all is very much within measurement error margin.
And yes, Ive had a CAI on a Golf MKIII 1.8 in the early 90s, but never on any BMW. Nobody has shown me any convincing evidence to the benefits so far.

Please dont take any of this personally. Im not attacking anyone for doing whatever they care for to their cars. All I am stating is that "I" do not believe in measurable performance gains through CAIs (at least not as a function of lower temp, lower air resistance, maybe). And noone has been able to convince me otherwise so far.

And as for "do a search": I did not open this thread. Somebody opened it asking for the benefits of cold air when it comes to the performance of internal combustion engines. His question was aswered very well in the first reply. And all I said was: be weary of the advice "get a CAI immediatley" that I knew was going to follow.
Did you miss the 8 horsepower and 18 ft lbs of torque at 2,300 RPM?! Dude, thats HUGE!! Yeah, there are other mods on the car, but the intake provided the biggest kick in the pants (i.e. torque).

Do you think all performance mods are designed for only horsepower gains at the top end? Different mods are designed to help in particular areas of the power band, not just peak HP at the top end. I personally, would take 18 ft lbs of torque down low then I would an extra 20 HP at peak RPMs.

I find it interesting that you have an opinion on this when you have no experience with an intake on an E46.
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  #14  
Old 01-13-2005, 03:56 PM
adc adc is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tierfreund
YFI, CAIs are virtually unknown in Europe as a mod (or rather, they were a slightly popular mod about 10-15 years ago). Are we really such ignorant fools as to oversee an obvious performance mod ?
Europe = colder. (especially Germany) Therefore minimal gains from a CAI.

Cannot speak for the ignorance issue...

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  #15  
Old 01-13-2005, 10:42 PM
f ll th bl nks f ll th bl nks is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tierfreund
>May I quote from the thread:

had the car dyno'd again today (1/8/05). Last month I made the following modifications and put over 1,000 miles on the car to let the computer adapt.

The mods :

- Conforti Cold Air Intake
- UUC TSE3 Exhaust
- UUC Underdrive Pulleys
- 15 lb 17 x 8 SSR Comp Wheels (wheel/tire combo is 9lbs lighter then stock)
- 3.07 Limited Slip Differential (same final drive gear ratio as stock, would make no diff on dyno)

Dyno results :

The biggest gain was at 2,300 RPM. I gained about 8 horsepower and 18 ft lbs of torque. Peak horsepower went from 207 to 209 (2 HP gain). Peak torque went from 200 to 207 (7 ft lb gain).

END OF QOUTE

So, a change in exhaust, underdrive pulleys AND a CAI get a measured gain in max hp of 2!

The pulleys alone should be good for that. Plus 2 hp at 207 in all is very much within measurement error margin.
And yes, Ive had a CAI on a Golf MKIII 1.8 in the early 90s, but never on any BMW. Nobody has shown me any convincing evidence to the benefits so far.

Please dont take any of this personally. Im not attacking anyone for doing whatever they care for to their cars. All I am stating is that "I" do not believe in measurable performance gains through CAIs (at least not as a function of lower temp, lower air resistance, maybe). And noone has been able to convince me otherwise so far.

And as for "do a search": I did not open this thread. Somebody opened it asking for the benefits of cold air when it comes to the performance of internal combustion engines. His question was aswered very well in the first reply. And all I said was: be weary of the advice "get a CAI immediatley" that I knew was going to follow.
so youre from the vdub scene, well me too. if you were involved within the community youd know that the vr6's gain anywhere from 8-15hp from CAI. dyno proven before and after, third party, no other supporting mods between dynos. nobody is attacking you. but a very good point was made. if you have no experience, where's your opinion coming from? also, yes mods are designed for different reasons. mods can increase low end, top end. a chip gives you 8hp, but some are quick to forget that thats power added across the whole band, powerband increased, rev limiter increased, greater throttle response. but that doesnt matter, it was only 8 hp

but so what if gains are proven. its your opinion right?

Last edited by f ll th bl nks; 01-13-2005 at 10:44 PM.
  #16  
Old 01-14-2005, 01:17 AM
tierfreund tierfreund is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adc
Europe = colder. (especially Germany) Therefore minimal gains from a CAI.

adc
03 330 ZHP
Thats grand.

Its stinking warm round here right now. Its January and +10deg Cent.

Sounds like Ive stirred up some true believers here...

Please understand, I love you guys. I love the way you love your cars (I at least like mine too) and I love the dedication you bring to them and the modding.
Thats why Im here reading and participating.

All Im stating is my opinion on the efficiency of some mods. Please respect it as I respect yours.
  #17  
Old 01-14-2005, 01:29 AM
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The way I see it is that the theory behind cold air intakes is valid, but most of them probably don't do much more than make noise. On my E46 the air intake is right at the front of the car. The only way I can see to make it better is to extend the inlet duct forward out in front of the car (really ugly!) or cool the ductwork with something like dry ice. In fact drag racers used to run their fuel lines through a "cool can" filled with dry ice. It was good for a couple of hundredths of a second off the quarter-mile time. Practical for racing, but not for street.
Now if your car takes its air from under the hood, that's a lot hotter than ambient, and a good cai can prove helpful.
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  #18  
Old 01-14-2005, 01:53 AM
tierfreund tierfreund is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by f ll th bl nks
so youre from the vdub scene, well me too. if you were involved within the community youd know that the vr6's gain anywhere from 8-15hp from CAI. dyno proven before and after, third party, no other supporting mods between dynos. nobody is attacking you. but a very good point was made. if you have no experience, where's your opinion coming from? also, yes mods are designed for different reasons. mods can increase low end, top end. a chip gives you 8hp, but some are quick to forget that thats power added across the whole band, powerband increased, rev limiter increased, greater throttle response. but that doesnt matter, it was only 8 hp

but so what if gains are proven. its your opinion right?
Im not from any scene, but Ive been around. And no, I dont remeber the VR6 benefitting substatially from an CAI. But then the VR6 (in the MKIII Golf) was quite underdeveloped and profited from many mods. So Im not surprised. But there too, I believe the benefit came not from COLDER air, but from better airflow (less restricted).

My beef is with the lack of precision in the statements. I dont think that the qouted changes in dyno results are significant. I see 2hp in peak power gain (pls. come on, thats not worth thinking about) and 8 hp at 2300rpm (which would at least be somewhat relevant) after a series of mods. Only one of them is the CAI.

Other than that it all reads: I know it works, I can feel it! Sorry fellas, that doesnt make me want to get my tool kit. The 8hp at low revs yould easily be the pulleys alone. Maybe, maybe not.
What I know for a fact is that any aural change will make the biggest difference in percieved performance. Ask someone with an Italian car. A Fiat 500 with an Abarth exhaust will feel very quick. Thats why Im allways very sceptical about statements that claim non-measurable performance gains from mods that also change the sound of an engine (intake and exhaust modifications)

Ill make you a bet though:
Lets get a truely independant dyno. Set up a car with a stock intake. Change the intake only and lets dyno it again. If you gain more than 1% of peak power or more than 2% of power somewhere in the rev band, Ill buy you dinner and pay for the dyno run.
If theres no such gain though, youll have to pay for my plane ticket (dont worry Ill fly econ)

Oh and of course I can have an opinion on a CAI without having tried it on an E46. Same goes for plastic surgery and in fact many other things I have an opinion on.

Besides all that, I never said CAI dont work at all, my actual statment is that I dont believe, the (in my opinion marginal) effect they have comes through "cold" air. Nobody has been able to explain to me why the CAI setups on the market would draw colder air than the stock intake on the E46

Except for the Europe/US comment though. Seems moving to Europe will get you an instant performance gain

So long and please read all of this in the good spirit and tone of respect and brotherly love it is written in. Im serious about the bet though.
  #19  
Old 01-14-2005, 01:55 AM
tierfreund tierfreund is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Clevenger
The way I see it is that the theory behind cold air intakes is valid, but most of them probably don't do much more than make noise. On my E46 the air intake is right at the front of the car. The only way I can see to make it better is to extend the inlet duct forward out in front of the car (really ugly!) or cool the ductwork with something like dry ice. In fact drag racers used to run their fuel lines through a "cool can" filled with dry ice. It was good for a couple of hundredths of a second off the quarter-mile time. Practical for racing, but not for street.
Now if your car takes its air from under the hood, that's a lot hotter than ambient, and a good cai can prove helpful.
Thank you, you brought my hassle to the point. The stock intake of the E46 draws Air not from the engine bay but from in front of the radiator. I cant see any other place to draw air from that would be significantly cooler
  #20  
Old 01-14-2005, 05:44 AM
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look folks.. i have been in the tuner game for a while now.. and believe me diferent cars react differently to cold air intakes.. with a honda or a nissan thay are the real deal the will give you about 5-8 rwhp and 8-10 torque gain at mid rpms. the reason for this is that these cars have very restricive factory air boxes ( for the sake of quietness)the colder air intake gain increase over a short ram intake is neglegable. it is the restriction elimination that gives you the bigger gain not the colder air

from what i can see with my current car the intake is pretty free flowing with a k&n filter in place. Not to say gains couldn't be measured by adding an intake i'm just saying that the gains may not be what other people have seen in other vehicles..

a good rule of thumb when it comes to mods.. is that anything under 15hp fwhp you will not feel. i noticed a slight "seat of the pants" increase when i changed to a k&n in my car.
  #21  
Old 01-14-2005, 05:51 AM
tierfreund tierfreund is offline
 
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^Thanks buddy

Just as I said in my first post:

Quote:
Originally Posted by tierfreund
But its a popular misconception that the devices sold as CAI will actually get colder air into your engine. Many people think that the original input will collect warm air since it is draws air from right in front of the radiator.

It doesnt. Moving at pedestrian speed or more will have the stock intake gather air with ambient temperature. Same as any other intake.


CAI is for show and sound. Not for performance.

I still stand by that, but would like to modify the last sentence to

"CAI is mostly for show and sound. Not for performance."

Last edited by tierfreund; 01-14-2005 at 06:01 AM.
  #22  
Old 01-14-2005, 06:22 AM
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FWIW, the link that JLew put up above (to e46fanatics) has a before and after dyno performed by Iniquity. He showed gains.

From what I can see, there are only a couple of long intake tube CAI style intakes available, besides fleabay. Others styles are vast improvement on the stock setup, using the same intake ducting and an isolated filtration chamber. Then there is the wacky Gruppe M. Are you mainly speaking on the long tube, filter-behind-the-bumper, Dinan/BenFer/AEM style intake versus the stock/modified stock type?
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  #23  
Old 01-14-2005, 08:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tierfreund
My beef is with the lack of precision in the statements. I dont think that the qouted changes in dyno results are significant. I see 2hp in peak power gain (pls. come on, thats not worth thinking about) and 8 hp at 2300rpm (which would at least be somewhat relevant) after a series of mods. Only one of them is the CAI.
You really should educate yourself on power/torque curves before we can really have a meaningful conversation on this subject. All you seem to care about is the horsepower gain at peak RPMs, is that so you can tell all your friends, my car has X more horsepower then yours!? If thats really all you want, then yeah maybe a CAI is not right for you, because youre honestly not looking for performance, youre looking for a number.

The reason you think a CAI does not give performance, is because you have an incorrect definition of what performance really is. Performance is not just a number at peak RPMs. People who are really looking for performance gains from their car, look at the power and torque curves that actually means a heck of a lot more then your peak HP number.

Theres lots of information on the internet about the importance of the power/torque curve, I would encourage you to read up on it. Heres one example

http://www.auto-ware.com/combust_bytes/p_goal.htm

Look, Im not attacking you, Im just trying to get you to understand the importance of the power curve. Modding your car for performance is not about making a number, its about adjusting your power and torque curve to meet your needs.
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  #24  
Old 01-14-2005, 09:15 AM
tierfreund tierfreund is offline
 
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I understand, none of this is meant to be offensive. Same from my side. I believe the conversation we are having here would be very different if we were talking person to person. Im sure, wed immediately be on common ground and share the respect of enthusiasts for our cars and driving. Theres allways a danger in writen statements that positions seem to hard and backgounds are not understood.

I can assure you, I know the importance of a torque curve very well. I even know how power relates to torque and rev. And no, Im certainly not looking for any number to tell my friends about (pah, numbers are easy to make up anyway, what would they know ). And I do understand the dyno curves and this and other threads.

I also never said that a CAI never gets improvement. Its just that I find the results posted marginal, am sceptical about many staments about them (especially the "cold" air part in an E46 (since the stock intake draws cold air allready), and am stating that "I" do not share the enthusiasm for it that many on this board display.

Im also saying that I find it interesting that CAI are so popular in certain regions (US) while theyre quite unpopular in others (Germany). (Not putting any value on this difference, just asking for any explanaintion)

Id also like to see some thorough explanation on HOW the CAI can improve the performance on an E46. Lets be honest here, Ive read questions on these and other forums where people seriously were asking by how much a CAI will lower their Oil temp and if that would prevent their M3 engine from blowing up. Duh. Its very easy to sell a bridge of mods to some people. Id like to be the voice of skepticism here.

Lets get down to hard core facts and some true tech explanations and youll see, my understanding of internal combustion engines goes way beyond what you seem to believe right now.
Its just that Im a skeptic in many things and performance mods on a highly developed motor such as the BMW I6 need to be properly explained and proven before Ill join the choir and praise them.

But now I feel this thread is running so dry its squeaking allready

Lets just, in all respect, agree to disagree. Ill be happy to applaud you to any change youre making to any car, and if you believe CAIs are a a good mod - go ahead and preach their benefits. Ill even listen with interest.
Please just allow me my position of caution without instantly questioning my knowledge.
  #25  
Old 01-14-2005, 08:37 PM
f ll th bl nks f ll th bl nks is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tierfreund
Lets just, in all respect, agree to disagree. Ill be happy to applaud you to any change youre making to any car, and if you believe CAIs are a a good mod - go ahead and preach their benefits. Ill even listen with interest.
Please just allow me my position of caution without instantly questioning my knowledge.
i respect you just as much as you respect me or anyone else. really . i did it for the sake of debate. thats the best way to turn a thread like this where we would just say our opinions into something informative and enjoyable to participate in. sorry if you were ever offended in any way. it just that i know there are gains, even if they are considered marginal by some, and i wanted to make this thread fun by helping you look at CAI's a different way. but its clear that you do understand everything anyone can tell you, and that youd stick by your opinion anyway. which is fine.

and for the record, i dont plan on putting an intake in my car

Last edited by f ll th bl nks; 01-14-2005 at 08:39 PM.
 

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