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E60 / E61 (2004 - 2010)
BMW 5-Series E60 Sedan was first seen in the Unites States in the fall of 2003 with a 2004 Model Year designation. The E61 wagon followed shortly there after. The E60/E61 5 series is now available as a 528i, 528xi, 535i, 535xi, 550i and a 535xi sports wagon! -- View the E60 Wiki

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Old 02-02-2019, 04:46 PM
safoo safoo is offline
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Question Car not starting - is it a ground issue?

I have a 2008 550i. Got home from work yesterday evening and the car was not starting at the parking garage. The engine cranks, but the car does not start. Also tried to jump start, and same issue.

Issues I observed:
  1. Starter cranks, but engine does not start. Same when doing a jump start
  2. Fuel Pump does not prime when entering vehicle or Key in ignition
  3. Windows, lights, headlights, CCC etc all power up

Here is a summary of the diagnosis I've done so far:
  • Battery
    - Checked at Autozone and held charge fine.
    - Checked with multi-meter Pole to Pole, Pole to Clamp, and Clamp to Pole and all showing same voltage (~12V)
    - Checked the jumper points in the hood and multi-meter shows 12V
    - Checked with hidden menu and showed ~12V
  • Fuel Pump Relay (in glove box)
    - Replaced with a new relay and car still does not start
    - With relay removed, checked the signal to pin 30, registers 12V
    - With relay removed, I shorted pin30 and 87 and it causes the fuel pump to turn ON
    - With relay removed and with pin30 and 87 shorted (and fuel pump ON), I tried to start car and car cranks but still didn't start.
    - With relay removed, checked signal to pin86 with Key in Ignition and it correctly shows 12V.
    - With relay removed, checked signal to pin85 against metal body (with Key in Ignition) and shows 3.5V(!!) (this is supposed to be ground. I believe this signal comes from DME). Pin 86 to 85 is supposed to be 12V to cause the Fuel Pump to start, but it registers 8.5V since the ground is not coming correctly.
  • Fuses
    - Checked fuses in fuse box under passenger micro-filter under the hood. All looked fine. Where is the DME Relay?
    - Checked fuses in glove box and all looked fine.
    - Checked fuses in trunk and all looked fine.

Could use your help to understand what to check for next. My instinct says to focus on the possible electrical / ground issue: Ignition switch or DME Relay as those should precede the Fuel Pump Relay in order of operations for the car to start.
The key issues to text next are:
  1. Why would the Ground show 3.5V to the fuel pump relay? This comes from the DME relay correct?
  2. Where is the DME Relay location? I was expecting a blue or green relay but have not been able to locate it anywhere.
  3. Could it be the key ignition switch? How to test it?
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  #2  
Old 02-02-2019, 05:20 PM
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Doug Huffman Doug Huffman is offline
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Old 02-03-2019, 12:50 AM
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Burning2nd Burning2nd is offline
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according to your diag, this shouldn't make a difference..

BUT what happens when you spray the intake with some starting fluid?
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Old 02-04-2019, 11:23 AM
MysticRob MysticRob is offline
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Why would you think this is battery related if the car cranks? Doesn't sound like the battery or the starter if the engine cranks.
I think you're on the right track if you're thinking fuel pump. The fuel rail under pressure if you loosen?
There gas in the tank? Wouldn't mention that but it's been overlooked before.
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Old 02-04-2019, 01:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticRob View Post
Why would you think this is battery related if the car cranks? Doesn't sound like the battery or the starter if the engine cranks.
I just went through this last week.

Car cranked, no start
No low discharge warning
clock had correct time

Towed into service for diagnostic
*Bad battery
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Old 02-04-2019, 02:06 PM
MysticRob MysticRob is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NoQuarter View Post
I just went through this last week.

Car cranked, no start
No low discharge warning
clock had correct time

Towed into service for diagnostic
*Bad battery
And that fixed your issue, huh?
Wow, it just sounds like typical dealership shenanigans to me when something else is likely root-causing it. The battery cranking the engine without fail just normally means it's strong enough to run all the electrical sub-systems too, but then again maybe the state of charge is just too weak to also run everything properly and cause the no-start condition.

Who knows, but do I know these cars can freak out after the car is started and running due to low state of charge battery issues, so it behooves us all to run the latest and greatest software revisions and occasionally throw battery tenders on these 'old clunkers'.

BTW, Doug, this is a great resource, so thanks for posting it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Huffman View Post
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Old 02-04-2019, 02:08 PM
safoo safoo is offline
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Thanks for the replies everyone. I'm working through these tests and suggestions this week.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NoQuarter View Post
I just went through this last week.

Car cranked, no start
No low discharge warning
clock had correct time

Towed into service for diagnostic
*Bad battery
Did you car start with a jump?
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  #8  
Old 02-04-2019, 02:12 PM
safoo safoo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticRob View Post
Why would you think this is battery related if the car cranks? Doesn't sound like the battery or the starter if the engine cranks.
I think you're on the right track if you're thinking fuel pump. The fuel rail under pressure if you loosen?
There gas in the tank? Wouldn't mention that but it's been overlooked before.
Thanks for the reply. Car definitely has gas in the tank. I'll check pressure at the rail. Though fuel pump audibly runs if I jump the FP relay and doesn't seem to run otherwise.
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Old 02-04-2019, 02:12 PM
safoo safoo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Burning2nd View Post
according to your diag, this shouldn't make a difference..

BUT what happens when you spray the intake with some starting fluid?
I have a spark tester coming tomorrow and will check for spark and report back. Thanks for the reply.
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Old 02-04-2019, 02:22 PM
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Burning2nd Burning2nd is offline
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i didnt say spark test.. I said starting fluid In the intake..
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Old 02-10-2019, 10:44 AM
safoo safoo is offline
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Thank you everyone for your help so far.

I was able to make some progress this weekend so wanted to update. Again, thanks for all your help.

Here is what I've done:
1\ Spark - tested and not getting spark
2\ Fuel pump - works when jumped at the relay, installed a new relay too. ECU is not sending the signal to prime/run
3\ crankshaft position sensor - I replaced this. Was a 2007 part, might as well.
4\ Battery - charged at Autozone, currently 100% 12.7V.

Still doesn't start. Cranks, but not start, no spark, no fuel pump running/priming.

Bought a BMW Carly, reset all the codes. And diagnostics now shows 3 faults:

Engine: 0x2F44 - EWS Manipulation Protection
Other: 00DE50 - Ring break diagnosis was performed
Other: 00DE51 - Long and / or frequent Unlocks

Is the EWS manipulation leading to "crank but no start" now?

What is best next step?

1\ DME + CAS sync. I just need INPA and a Cable, correct? Or I can find someone locally to do this.
2\ Get new battery - I'm still open to this being the original issue
3\ Possible DME is bad - I'm still open to this being original issue. (It had been raining all week. I did a car wash a week before the car went bad and drain on passenger side was full of leaves/dirt causing water to flow into passenger side carpet through the microfilter overflow. I didn't see any signs of water in the fuse/dme compartment.)

@NoQuarter - certainly open to battery being bad. It has a date of April 2015. Autozone keeps telling me it is testing fine and charging fine. But I've seen the same on an E39 a few years back where Autozone says battery is fine but replacing it fixes issue.

@Burning2nd - appreciate your idea here. I have not tested with Starter Fluid as without any spark I didn't think it would help.
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Old 02-10-2019, 01:43 PM
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Burning2nd Burning2nd is offline
Under the lift arms
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you have a EWS fault.. that is what is stopping you from running.. you are going to need software, like INPA, or ISTA , GT1,

* and the starting fluid test is designed for when you first cant start, its a 30 second test that can be done anywhere with no tools
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Last edited by Burning2nd; 02-10-2019 at 01:44 PM.
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Old 02-10-2019, 01:45 PM
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Burning2nd Burning2nd is offline
Under the lift arms
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EWS can be a bastard, cars not stolen is it?
lol
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Old 02-10-2019, 02:16 PM
safoo safoo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Burning2nd View Post
EWS can be a bastard, cars not stolen is it?
lol
lol. no, but I just bought it less than a month ago.

I ordered the cable and downloading INPA now. I'll try the EWS sync with INPA in a couple of days and report back.

Have to wonder if the battery should still be replaced at almost 4 years old? I still don't know if the battery caused the non-start or CPS (since replaced).

Last edited by safoo; 02-10-2019 at 02:18 PM.
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Old 02-10-2019, 02:43 PM
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Burning2nd Burning2nd is offline
Under the lift arms
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when the car sits, plug it in on trickle charge,

If the car has been sitting for while.. its probably low on voltage, A simple volt meter can confirm that,

I cant diag a battery over the internet.. Its litterally.. Start with KNOWN good battery, so im not going to pass judgment on your battery... What i can tell you in that part of the garage, IS I only buy interstate Mega tron's there is a reason they are 50-100$ more

I get 15 years out of a battery (ish)
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Old 02-10-2019, 02:47 PM
fred530xi fred530xi is offline
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Check out this link:
https://us.autologic.com/news/bmw-mini-fault-code-2f44

Good luck
Fred
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Old 02-10-2019, 03:23 PM
serrg serrg is offline
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Car not starting - is it a ground issue?

Can anyone point me in to the right thread, regards to what a good charge and charger would be for my Bmw. Iíve recently purchased a e60 535xi and the temp outside dropped and I started getting a fault for my all wheel drive system.


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Last edited by serrg; 02-10-2019 at 03:49 PM.
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Old 02-10-2019, 03:30 PM
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Burning2nd Burning2nd is offline
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14.4 VDC +/= .2 % under full load,

*start a new thread
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Old 02-10-2019, 03:51 PM
serrg serrg is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Burning2nd View Post
14.4 VDC +/= .2 % under full load,

*start a new thread


Any recommendations on what would be a good charger to own for these cars?


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Old 02-10-2019, 04:21 PM
safoo safoo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Burning2nd View Post
when the car sits, plug it in on trickle charge,

If the car has been sitting for while.. its probably low on voltage, A simple volt meter can confirm that,

I cant diag a battery over the internet.. Its litterally.. Start with KNOWN good battery, so im not going to pass judgment on your battery... What i can tell you in that part of the garage, IS I only buy interstate Mega tron's there is a reason they are 50-100$ more

I get 15 years out of a battery (ish)
Do you recommend AGM battery or Standard? I have a simple 1.5A Schumacher battery maintainer I plan to use once a week since I don't drive very far on a daily basis.
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Old 02-10-2019, 04:22 PM
safoo safoo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fred530xi View Post
Check out this link:
https://us.autologic.com/news/bmw-mini-fault-code-2f44

Good luck
Fred
Thanks, Fred. This got me thinking about replacing battery since my battery is almost 4 years old.
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Old 02-10-2019, 04:34 PM
fred530xi fred530xi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by safoo View Post
Thanks, Fred. This got me thinking about replacing battery since my battery is almost 4 years old.
Cool. Our cars eat batteries for breakfast and lunch. The link specifically mentions the EWS being out of sync with the DME, which seems more likely if you have tested and charged the battery.

Good luck
Fred
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  #23  
Old 02-11-2019, 07:59 AM
eagmnjh eagmnjh is offline
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crank no start

I just fixed this on my 2006 525xi. It was coil and spark plug issue. Replaced all 6 coils and plugs, because I had no idea how old they were. Bought car 4 months ago (or there about) and it currently has 240k miles. There was a mix of what appeared to be original and aftermarket coils, and not all of the plugs were even the same type (one or two iridium, rest looked like platinum). Started right up after changing these parts.
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Old 02-12-2019, 12:08 AM
Annolago Annolago is offline
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If you had a car wash that went bad and you had water coming in through the draining ducts onto the carpet then I would open up your ECU box beneath the passenger side micro filter and have a look at it to see if any water made it that far. If you have any signs of water or humidity then I would remove the cables and then place the units in a bag with dry rice to suck all the moisture out of the circuit boards. With a bit of luck you can rescue them.
Funny that nobody have pointed to this as a possible source of the faults.
Best of luck.
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Old 02-12-2019, 11:25 AM
safoo safoo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Annolago View Post
If you had a car wash that went bad and you had water coming in through the draining ducts onto the carpet then I would open up your ECU box beneath the passenger side micro filter and have a look at it to see if any water made it that far. If you have any signs of water or humidity then I would remove the cables and then place the units in a bag with dry rice to suck all the moisture out of the circuit boards. With a bit of luck you can rescue them.
Funny that nobody have pointed to this as a possible source of the faults.
Best of luck.
I checked the ECU box after towing the car home and (luckily) didn't see any signs of water entry there.

I had a tiny bit of water in the battery compartment that I will be looking at once the car is running again.

The one thing I wasn't sure about : in the passenger side wheel well I cleared debris from the rubber spout that is there behind the liner and water gushed out. There are 2 sets of wires and electronic connectors in the wheel well area and it seems like they are in the way of any water that comes out of the spout. Any idea what these are and if they should be protected? I found it odd that electronics would be so close below the water drain spout. This is just above the dynamic drive valve block on passenger side wheel well.
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