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E46 M3 (2001-2006)

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  #51  
Old 08-20-2005, 03:08 PM
Alex Baumann Alex Baumann is offline
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Originally Posted by SteveT
What about flat 12's? The flat 12 in the 70's was one of the nicest sounding engines in F1. We used to try to go through the garage at Watkins Glen just to hear them start a new engine and run it in. It was sweet. The V10's sound good, but it's nice to have different sounds.
Very interesting layout. The longtitudinally mid-mounted flat 12 in the 365 GT4 BB was one of the finest engines back then (0-60 in 5.3 secs, over 175mph top-speed). All flat 12s were F1 derivations, as you mentioned.

I agree that V10 is nice, but the 12-pack has something special.
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  #52  
Old 08-22-2005, 09:00 AM
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Actually I think I said that real Ferraris have 12 cylinder engines, I did not limit it to V engines.

But anyway, a flat engine is still a V engine, just one with 180 degrees between banks.
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  #53  
Old 08-22-2005, 04:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Pinecone
Actually I think I said that real Ferraris have 12 cylinder engines, I did not limit it to V engines.

But anyway, a flat engine is still a V engine, just one with 180 degrees between banks.
I can buy that. Always love the sound whether it's a V or not.
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  #54  
Old 08-26-2005, 06:03 AM
andy_thomas andy_thomas is offline
 
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Originally Posted by dawgbone
I'd probably never buy a vette...and I love the M3 for what it is..but in it's class, it sure is lagging behind...
Depends on how you define the class. Against hi-volume American cars which aren't really sold anywhere else other than North America, sure, it will always lag behind in power and price. I don't even think the 'Vette (a Corvette, right?) is even sold in Europe any more. (Alex? Anyone from France, Italy etc.?) Against its domestic (which would German) competitors, now Audi and AMG have updated their cars, it's time for BMW to do reset the bar.

The closest available big-block competitor to the M3 is the Monaro 6l. Even with 400 bhp and a million torques, it struggles to keep up even in a straight line and doesn't go round bends too well (1,800 kg and Town Car suspension see to that). But the predilection for going sideways, and the lazy power, definitely has appeal for *some* people.

BTW the CTS V8 (400 bhp?) is coming to Europe sometime soon, but the UK list price is around 50k, and the price in European markets won't be much less. So, that won't be lasting long on the price lists, then...
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  #55  
Old 08-26-2005, 12:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinecone
Actually I think I said that real Ferraris have 12 cylinder engines, I did not limit it to V engines.

But anyway, a flat engine is still a V engine, just one with 180 degrees between banks.
So, how do you figure that a flat engine with 180 degress between the banks is a "V" configuration? Why do you guess they call it "flat" instead of "V"?
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  #56  
Old 08-26-2005, 01:04 PM
Alex Baumann Alex Baumann is offline
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Originally Posted by GSIRM3
So, how do you figure that a flat engine with 180 degress between the banks is a "V" configuration? Why do you guess they call it "flat" instead of "V"?
The difference is that flat engines has one crank per pin while in the V-180 engine two pistons share the same crank pin.
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  #57  
Old 08-26-2005, 02:38 PM
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The difference is that flat engines has one crank per pin while in the V-180 engine two pistons share the same crank pin.
That is exactly my point, a flat engine is not a V.
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  #58  
Old 08-26-2005, 02:40 PM
Alex Baumann Alex Baumann is offline
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Originally Posted by GSIRM3
That is exactly my point, a flat engine is not a V.
That's why Ferrari cracks don't like the term 'boxer' when someone refers to a Ferrari engine, because they associate boxer with a Porsche
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  #59  
Old 08-26-2005, 04:13 PM
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Actually you can have V engiens with one piston per crank arm, and flat engines can have 2 per crank arm.

A flat engine is just a specific case of a V engine. It would be a bit of a stretch though to call an inline a 0 degree V.
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  #60  
Old 08-28-2005, 03:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinecone
As for Ferrari using V-8s, according to some, those are not REAL Ferraris. The Dino, which used a V-6, never came with Ferrari badges. Real Ferraris have 12 cylinders.
I have to disagree. Aside from the Enzo and the F50 (which are full on, 200mph+ supercars) not many Ferrari's have a v12. The 360 and the F430 have a v8, and both of them are well respected by just about anyone who likes Ferraris.

I do see what you are saying though... there is something about a Ferrari with a 12 cylinder motor. I've been lucky enough to see two Enzo's in person, and they sound AMAZING. Its like nothing I have ever heard or seen. Just by the sound, you can tell there something unique under the hood (or whatever you'd call it)
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  #61  
Old 08-29-2005, 05:23 AM
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Too many, NONE of the newer Ferraris are REAL Ferraris. No 12s. Me, I will take any of them.
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  #62  
Old 08-29-2005, 12:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinecone
Too many, NONE of the newer Ferraris are REAL Ferraris. No 12s. Me, I will take any of them.
Thats too bad, but I guess a lot of the old school die-hards don't like change. I guess thats the same with any of us, I can't stand many of the new Bangle designed BMWs.

I agree 100%, I would be more than happy to take any of the Ferrari's, haha. I saw a few of the new F430's the other day... they are GORGEOUS. Take care.
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  #63  
Old 09-02-2005, 05:27 AM
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[QUOTE=LinkF1 The only problem you start to get in the I6s is that the crank and cams get to about the limit you want to go before you will get signifigant torquing from the length of the parts.[/QUOTE]

????
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  #64  
Old 09-02-2005, 03:06 PM
Andre Yew Andre Yew is offline
 
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Originally Posted by 99flhr
Quote:
Originally Posted by LinkF1
The only problem you start to get in the I6s is that the crank and cams get to about the limit you want to go before you will get signifigant torquing from the length of the parts.
????
The I6 has a longer crankshaft which means its torsional harmonic modes (standing waves on the shaft in the rotating direction) start at lower RPMs, which limits the max RPM you can safely drive it. When you limit RPMs, you limit potential horsepower since HP is proportional to RPMs.

I like the faux Ferrari V8s because they're one of the few flat-plane crankshafts, hence their unique sound compared to the cross-plane burbles you hear from American V8s and the M5 engine. The Ferrari GTs like the 575s are also V12s.

--Andre

Last edited by Andre Yew; 09-02-2005 at 03:08 PM.
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  #65  
Old 09-02-2005, 03:16 PM
flashinthepan flashinthepan is offline
 
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If the V8 M3 is an improvement in performance & pretty looking - I imagine I will be interested...but sure glad I have had my current M3 to keep the runs to the grocery store interesting
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  #66  
Old 09-07-2005, 07:04 AM
99flhr 99flhr is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andre Yew
The I6 has a longer crankshaft which means its torsional harmonic modes (standing waves on the shaft in the rotating direction) start at lower RPMs, which limits the max RPM you can safely drive it. When you limit RPMs, you limit potential horsepower since HP is proportional to RPMs

--Andre
And a 12 (V or flat) shares this length issue and yet many 12`s rev to the moon ( F-1 cars @ 17,000rpm) and make huge power. I have heard of torsional twisting being an issue in huge V-12 WWII
aero engines, of course at 27 liters the length of the engine was extreme! So while I understand the concept, I`m not sure it`s an issue with "car sized" displacements.

Last edited by 99flhr; 09-07-2005 at 07:20 AM.
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  #67  
Old 09-07-2005, 02:52 PM
Andre Yew Andre Yew is offline
 
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Yes, but an F1 crankshaft is quite different than anything we see on the road. Exotic materials, 1-race construction (in the days of the V12), and other non-mass produceable techniques can push up the the torsion mode frequencies.

--Andre
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  #68  
Old 09-07-2005, 03:17 PM
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As well as the fact that you dont get 6 liter F1 V12s like you do in road cars. The displacement of those high-revving engines in no where as big as you see in road cars. And those F1 cars dont have to have nearly as much torque to get moving seeing as they weigh so little.
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  #69  
Old 09-07-2005, 05:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 99flhr
And a 12 (V or flat) shares this length issue and yet many 12`s rev to the moon ( F-1 cars @ 17,000rpm) and make huge power. I have heard of torsional twisting being an issue in huge V-12 WWII
aero engines, of course at 27 liters the length of the engine was extreme! So while I understand the concept, I`m not sure it`s an issue with "car sized" displacements.
The much shorter stroke helps a lot. Less lever arm for torque.

The old inline 8s had a lot of trouble with this.
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  #70  
Old 09-07-2005, 06:53 PM
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Originally Posted by flashinthepan
If the V8 M3 is an improvement in performance & pretty looking - I imagine I will be interested...but sure glad I have had my current M3 to keep the runs to the grocery store interesting
"Improvement in performance"?

Oh it'll be faster alright, with the new car, you'll be able to slam yourself into a bridge abutment at, say, 160 mph or greater (if they remove the speed governor) instead of a paltry 145 to 150 mph.

You'll die just as quickly, but the rescue crews will have to search a wider area for your body parts; I'm sure they'll be pleased.

Ed
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  #71  
Old 09-08-2005, 11:41 AM
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Originally Posted by EdCT
"Improvement in performance"?

Oh it'll be faster alright, with the new car, you'll be able to slam yourself into a bridge abutment at, say, 160 mph or greater (if they remove the speed governor) instead of a paltry 145 to 150 mph.

You'll die just as quickly, but the rescue crews will have to search a wider area for your body parts; I'm sure they'll be pleased.

Ed
Yep, someone who is jealous of those owning M cars.

If you didn't know, performance is more than about top speed. In fact, to many, top speed in a LONG striaght line is meaningless. Now top speed on a given straight at a given track, now THAT means something.
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  #72  
Old 09-08-2005, 03:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinecone
Yep, someone who is jealous of those owning M cars.

If you didn't know, performance is more than about top speed. In fact, to many, top speed in a LONG striaght line is meaningless. Now top speed on a given straight at a given track, now THAT means something.
Ummmm, owning an M car would not be a problem for me

I guess the satire didn't quite translate: I'm against putting so much horsepower and top speed in the hands of the average dingbat; you know, the guys who show up at autocrosses and driving schools who actually believe they could be professional race car drivers one day.

Ed
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  #73  
Old 09-08-2005, 07:59 PM
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Originally Posted by EdCT
Ummmm, owning an M car would not be a problem for me

I guess the satire didn't quite translate: I'm against putting so much horsepower and top speed in the hands of the average dingbat; you know, the guys who show up at autocrosses and driving schools who actually believe they could be professional race car drivers one day.

Ed
I think this would be quite the opposite. Those who don't involve themselves in autocrosses and driving schools are more likely to be unable to handle their M car. Enjoying the capability of an automobile has nothing to do with becoming a professional driver. At the same time, the schools enhance one's appreciation for those who race.
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  #74  
Old 09-08-2005, 09:04 PM
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Originally Posted by SteveT
I think this would be quite the opposite. Those who don't involve themselves in autocrosses and driving schools are more likely to be unable to handle their M car. Enjoying the capability of an automobile has nothing to do with becoming a professional driver. At the same time, the schools enhance one's appreciation for those who race.
I understand your point and I agree (for the most part) many folks who attend drivers' schools are more likely to be somewhat cautious and appreciative of a car's limits. As a veteran of two Skip Barber schools I know I am.

However, your second point is perhaps the one to be concerned about; that is, the folks who'll buy these things who have no interest in schools and learning,only to stomp the gas pedal on the local parkways and back roads, feeling as if the car handles "like it's on rails" etc.

I just hope I'm not coming the other way, especially with teens behind the wheel or when these cars become cheap enough for their second and third owners.

The horsepower race, imo, is bad news, most amateurs can have plenty of fun with cars of far less power than what is currently the craze, I mean really, is the current M3 too timid, too "underpowered", too much of a poor handler? I don't think so, I think a lot of male testosterone and bravado is driving the "I need and must have a V8 in my next M3.....it's stupid.

Anyway, this is just my opinion and it makes no difference; the horsepower race will continue........

Ed
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  #75  
Old 09-09-2005, 01:17 AM
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Originally Posted by rommelrules
I'm sure it's about results and performance.
I don't think one design is necessarily better than the other.
If BMW was capable of keeping the car competitive in its class
with an inline six like Porsche does, then I'm sure the E90 M3 would
not be upgrading to a V8.

Fortunately or unfortunately, that does not seem
to be the case, for whatever reasons.

The E46 M3 inline six was a failure in professional racing.
The E46 M3 V8 GTR was a clear winner on the track until it was all but banned.
And that's on a car that wasn't even designed for a V8 engine. So the design works fine...

Personally, I prefer larger engines. Nothing like torque.
Wait, why was the GTR "all but banned"?
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