Any sypmtoms of a failing Eccentric shaft sensor or Actuator? - Bimmerfest - BMW Forums



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  #1  
Old 01-21-2020, 07:33 AM
Nyc Dito's Avatar
Nyc Dito Nyc Dito is offline
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Any sypmtoms of a failing Eccentric shaft sensor or Actuator?

Hi, my E90 has eh SULEV N51 motor and I have been having minor idle/hiccup issues. Cold or hot, doesn't seem to matter and doesn't last long. The issue sounds like VANOS to me, but I installed NEW OE solenoids and the car had the VANOS gears replaced by the recall issued at 75k, currently at 87k.

I have no codes, no major drive-ability issues, MPG has always hovered around 10-12 mpg (90% local stop and go traffic, small trips under 30 minutes). VC was done, no vacuum leaks. Plugs and coils were also done about 6k miles ago.

So in my thinking, i wanted to know what the symptoms were for either a failing Eccentric shaft sensor OR the Valve Actuator.


Thank you.
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Last edited by Nyc Dito; 01-21-2020 at 08:06 AM.
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  #2  
Old 01-21-2020, 02:01 PM
gbalthrop gbalthrop is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nyc Dito View Post
...E90...SULEV N51... been having minor idle/hiccup issues. Cold or hot, doesn't seem to matter and doesn't last long...I have no codes, [WHAT Scan Tool or Software was used, when, and what Modules were scanned?] no major drive-ability issues, MPG has always hovered around 10-12 mpg (90% local stop and go traffic, small trips under 30 minutes). VC was done, no vacuum leaks...
I realize that you are requesting information from others about the "symptoms" of a failing ESS or VVT ServoMotor. I don't have any personal experience with either. However, my suggestion is that you approach this with a DIFFERENT CONCEPT, namely by attempting to identify the system that is NOT operating correctly when the INTERMITTENT Rough Idle or "hiccup" issues are experienced.

Fifty years ago, autos did NOT have ECM's (Electronic Control Modules/ computers) installed which could "Remember" Fault Codes or FF Data (Freeze Frame Data/ Snapshot of engine conditions when Fault Code saved), NOR could one use a Scan Tool to OBSERVE Live Data or Parameters, such as Cam Positions, Timing Advance, or Fuel Trims during the occurrence of a particular symptom, to identify the system that was malfunctioning.

You COULD:
1) Just guess what might be causing YOUR particular vehicle's intermittent "Hiccup" by relying on anecdotal evidence (perhaps incorrectly recalled or recounted) related to a different vehicle with different repair/ replacement history from that of your vehicle; Result: throw parts at it; OR
2) Take advantage of the technology used in YOUR vehicle, along with proper DIAGNOSTIC SOFTWARE, to properly (a) Diagnose and (b) Test YOUR vehicle.

You say "I have no codes", but you do NOT indicate what Scan Tool or Software was used to read codes, and WHAT Modules it can connect to. You do NOT identify specifically WHAT SYMPTOMS your vehicle exhibits and at WHAT specific conditions, although you imply that there is an intermittent issue at "idle" which you appear to describe as a "hiccup" and "minor." You suggest this can occur when "cold or hot", without specifying whether that is a reference to ambient/ outside Temp, or Engine Temp. You do NOT indicate if the engine has ever stalled (quit running) at idle when this "hiccup" occurs. You do NOT indicate if the SES light or any other Warning Light has ever appeared in the Instrument Cluster when the "hiccup" occurs.

You do NOT indicate if you have turned the Compressor Valve OFF (Snowflake button), Monitored the Alternator Voltage (Hidden Menu 9.00) during "hiccup", etc. An indication of the DURATION of the "hiccup" would also be helpful, as would an indication of how FREQUENTLY the "hiccup" occurs (every 5 minutes, every stoplight, every day, every week, etc.) Providing the build Month/ Year of YOUR vehicle would also be helpful, as electrical systems changed on certain dates, even AFTER LCI production for that Chassis in some instances. You do NOT indicate WHEN this "hiccup" first occurred, or what work under the hood was done just BEFORE the "hiccup" began. So, even if you elect to stick with (1) above (relying on anecdotal evidence from others), we need MORE specific facts.

IF one assumes: (1) that there are NO Fault codes saved in the DME or any of the other ~ 20 Modules in YOUR vehicle, including Hex-codes as opposed to P-codes, (2) that NO Warning Lights have ever appeared, then the most likely cause of an "intermittent minor idle hiccup" is an intermittent "TOO LEAN" mixture condition, which most often is the result of a "Vacuum Leak" or "UNmetered" air entering the intake manifold, downstream of, and un-measured by, the MAF Sensor. You indicated that "VC was done, no vacuum leaks." That implies that someone else removed and replaced the Valve Cover, and perhaps that person or someone else checked for "vacuum leaks" by some unspecified method, for unspecified reason, at unspecified time (in relation to your current complaint).

Have you tried disconnecting the MAF Sensor Connector and seeing if that affects operation or occurrence of the "hiccup"? The SES light will be on and a Fault Code related to missing MAF Sensor signal will both occur when you do that, but it MAY give some indication of whether the "hiccup" is related to Mixture Control. Intermittent, brief duration, mixture control issues, such as due to a leaking hose electrical control issue, may NOT cause a Fault Code to be saved in the DME.

The bottom line is that there are WAAAY too many variables here for anyone on this forum to do anything other than identify: (1) things for you to check if YOU do your own work and have your own Scan Tool, Software, DMM, etc., OR (2) things for you to suggest to your shop.

Diagnosing the cause of an intermittent issue, which does NOT cause a Fault Code to be saved in the DME, is very difficult even for a person who understands ALL the systems in your vehicle, and who has proper test equipment, and even then, if measurable change in INPUTS to the DME (Parameters or Live Data) cannot be observed WHILE the "hiccup" is occurring, the cause CANNOT be scientifically identified or confirmed. How much time, money, etc. is reasonable to spend on something like that is YOUR personal call. If it does NOT result in engine stall, which COULD be a safety hazard, particularly if you pull into or turn across oncoming traffic from a standstill, then my understanding is that this is currently just an annoyance or nuisance issue.

If you do NOT already have a Scan Tool that can at least read P-codes in the DME, my suggestion would be to spend ~ $35 for a basic P-code and Parameter reader such as linked below, and just do your own scans from time to time until (A) the condition worsens or becomes a safety issue, or (B) a P-code is read which you can report here, or the SES light illuminates (which normally indicates a P-code HAS been saved in DME Memory). Although I use INPA on my E91, I also have the Autel 319 shown below, and it is excellent as an entry-level Scan Tool that can be easily used by someone who never used a scan tool before, to (1) Read & Clear Fault Codes, and Freeze Frame Data; and to (2) Observe Parameters or Live Data including Fuel Trims and ignition timing (but NOT Cam Timing):
https://www.amazon.com/Autel-AutoLin...NsaWNrPXRydWU=

Please let us know more specifics of your issue,
George
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  #3  
Old 02-12-2020, 05:00 PM
2008e66 2008e66 is offline
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George, Can you tell me how a person could watch live operation of the eccentric camshaft sensor in INPA or any specific software?
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  #4  
Old 02-13-2020, 12:17 AM
gbalthrop gbalthrop is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2008e66 View Post
George, Can you tell me how a person could watch live operation of the eccentric camshaft sensor in INPA or any specific software?
You do NOT indicate what Model, Engine, and DME Variant you are inquiring about. The following relates to my 2007 N52KP with MSV80 DME (2007 & later N52 & N51 engines had that DME AFAIK. I am currently using an OLD version that is mostly in German (Mike's download IIRC), and Menus may vary according to what download/installation you are using. The content for F5 Status (Live Data) and F6 Activations (Steuern) should be the same for any other MSV80 however, just navigation differences.

INPA; N52 with MSV80 DME:

A) Read Eccentric Shaft position in "Real Time" or as "Live Data": DME > F5 > F2 > F6 Measured Values Group 6 (Messwertblock 6):

1) Connect to DME (MSV80) by Selecting Engine in Left Listbox; press Tab to navigate to Right Listbox; Scroll Down to MSV80 and press Enter.
2) DME Main Menu (Hauptmenu) appears: Press F5 for "Status" Menu; Press F2 for Analog Measured Values Groups (Analoge Messwertblocke); Press F6 for Group 6
3) VVT-Eccentric Shaft Actual Value (VVT-Eccentric Istwert) is 3rd Bar Graph from bottom in Right Column. See 1st attached jpg screenprint of actual INPA screen.

B) Activate Eccentric Shaft to 10, 45, 90, 135 or 170 degrees (total range is 0 - 180 degrees):

1) Do Activation ONLY with engine OFF (Ignition ON).
2) When activating, you will see a second bar graph for "Actual" Value, to see if that corresponds with Setpoint or Target Angle/value.
3) To view that Screen or Activate VVT Actuator Motor: DME > F6 > Shft+F7 Activate/ Control VVT Actuator Motor (Stellgliedansteuerung VVT). See 2nd attached jpg screenprint of actual INPA Screen.

C) Activate/Observe VVT Relay operation: This Activates the VVT Relay, or shows you if the Relay is ON (EIN) or OFF (AUS). Once again, ONLY do activation with Engine OFF, Ignition On. To view that VVT Relay screen: DME > F6 > Shft+F8 Activate/ Control VVT Relay (Stellgliedansteuerung VVT-Relais). See 3rd attached jpg screenprint.

I have NO IDEA what various Scan Tools can read in the way of E9x/MSV80 parameters or Live Data. If you have a Windows 10 laptop, it's a NO-BRAINER. Download BMW Standard Tools (includes INPA) for $0 = FREE and get BimmerGeeks K+DCAN Cable to connect USB port of laptop to OBD II Socket, and discover all the information you can get from/give to your DME: Fault Codes, Code Definitions, Freeze Frame Data, Fault Details; F5 Status = Parameters or Live Data (view INPUTS received by a Module); F6 Activations (Steuern) to test operation of motors (Coolant Pump, Fuel Pump, Windows, Locks, etc.), operation of Lights, etc. (test OUTPUT side of Module by completing circuit, power or ground).

If you have a particular issue you are trying to diagnose, please let us know,
George
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  #5  
Old 02-13-2020, 09:24 PM
2008e66 2008e66 is offline
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Excellent! This is the type of info I am looking for.

I found this thread in a search while trying to find a way to verify camshaft eccentric sensor operation.
I removed valve covers on my 08 750li e66 to check timing chain and discovered that the eccentric camshaft sensors were cracked, one more badly than the other.
I have epoxied them and will reinstall tomorrow.

I did not have prior codes relating to the sensor, I just wanted to find a way to check camshaft eccentric sensor feedback once I got it back together. Previous mechanic/owner must have cracked them as there were other signs of previous work that was less than ideal. As you may know, these particular sensors are $$.

Question - There are 2 eccentric camshaft sensors. One per bank. How do I determine the value of each? On the screenshots (which are great) it shows only 1 value. Are they averaged together? No big deal I suppose, if one of the sensors is faulty, it ought to show a code.

My new cable will be in soon and I have downloaded and installed INPA and associated softwares on my WIN10. I am very interested in learning to use the softwares necessary to own a 7 Series BMW! I've had the car for 3 years and am finally getting into INPA and the other associated softwares. Do you have experience in ISTA? Do you know if ISTA works with the e65/e66 and where I may download it?
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Old 02-13-2020, 09:50 PM
2008e66 2008e66 is offline
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https://bimmerprofs.com/diagnostics-example-n62/

So I found an INPA screenshot on bimmerprofs that show a screen with Eccentric Shaft Bank 1 and Eccentric Shaft Bank 2 Values along with Valve Stroke Values.

Any idea how to get to this page in INPA?
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  #7  
Old 02-13-2020, 10:20 PM
gbalthrop gbalthrop is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2008e66 View Post
...On the screenshots (which are great) it shows only 1 value. Are they averaged together?...
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2008e66 View Post
https://bimmerprofs.com/diagnostics-example-n62/
So I found an INPA screenshot on bimmerprofs that show a screen with Eccentric Shaft Bank 1 and Eccentric Shaft Bank 2 Values along with Valve Stroke Values. Any idea how to get to this page in INPA?
As stated in my prior post, I did NOT know what engine you were trying to diagnose, and the 6-cyl N51, N52, N54 & N55 engines dealt with by US members on this forum have ONLY ONE BANK. I tried to explain that the data I posted was applicable to my N52KP engine.

I have NOT used INPA on any other engine than my N52KP. It is my understanding that there are different screens for different engines (e.g. N54 has NO VVT, so MSD80 Menus provide NO such diagnostic for that engine).

So YES, when you properly download & install BMW Standard Tools with proper "Datens" files for your V8, with TWO BANKS and 2 different Eccentric Shafts and sensors, one for the Intake Valves on Each Bank, you should find a screen in the DME F5 Status Menu that relates to the VVT and Eccentric Shafts, Similar to what is shown on BimmerProf, Screen attached here.

Please feel free to educate us as to how it works for your V8,
George
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  #8  
Old 02-14-2020, 12:06 AM
ctuna ctuna is offline
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Bimmergeek.net downloads are recommended for both Standard
Tools and Ista D.
Full daten sets for most of the current cars should be available as a download
there or found on the coding sites.

How the Daten and and Database is loaded up for cars other than the 3 Series
would only be a guess.

Ista D is a more powerful and easier to use program to use as it
has a searchable data base attached tis that is like a shop manual
and guided troubleshooting.

You could try the b m w coding .com website. (take out spaces)
Or the coding site on e90post is more concentrated coding knowledge.



There is a 7 series sub forum here but maybe you should do a google search for other
7 series forums to.

https://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=1

Inpa and the standard tools suite is and Engineering tool I would assume it works with any
model indeed the List of selections in the first screen includes many BMW models plus Mini's.

Ista D was Dealer Shop software for years so it must cover all Models.

Diagnostic Manuals Inpa/Ista D
https://bimmerprofs.com/diagnostics-inpa-part-1/
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...7x8H3pN8h1fMuF
https://carmod.ru/files/icom/istad_en.pdf
https://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1681573
https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/s...-P-actually-do
primary links
https://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/at...9&d=1539905743
https://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1681573

Last edited by ctuna; 02-14-2020 at 12:27 AM.
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