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Crosspost with Dead Pixel Thread

25K views 61 replies 18 participants last post by  bluebee 
#1 ·
Original post here.

Thought I'd cross-post since the original is buried on page 22 of the dead pixel thread.

Just called BMWNA to get the ball rolling on replacing my now completely failed radio display - no dice. They are only helping owners with failed pixels in the odometer display.

VERY frustrating. I'd love to know if anyone has an idea on how I might appeal this. I thought BMW would step up and do the right thing with these chronically failing displays.

Has there ever been any talk of a class action suit? Seems like an obvious path since their failure rate is appallingly high and consumers are left holding the bag for BMW's engineering mistakes.

For those of you shopping for E39's, factor in the price of replacing the radio display if it hasn't been done already.

Ben
 
#2 ·
Ben,

I share your frustration, but could have told you the result before you asked. Even though this is a chronic issue, you really can't blame BMW for not stepping up. The thing is out of warranty. Period. Please know I feel your pain as I just did a MID replace myself out of pocket. I tried to fix my old one first and managed to destroy it. Bought one for $75 off Ebay with 100% of the pixels working so I was lucky. This is not a safety issue so therein lies the difference between the odometer display where you get mileage, overheating, etc. and the MID which just gives radio stations, etc.

Is it a piss-poor design? Certainly. Is it an item they should replace out of warranty? No.
Be patient and watch for a good deal on Ebay.

Bill
 
#3 ·
Bill,

Thanks for your input. And while I understand your logic, these parts have got to be past the threshold of "recallable" for lack of a better term. I obviously don't have access to overall failure rates for these displays but I've looked at a LOT of these cars shopping over the years and nearly all of them have this problem.

I was just quoted $922 + tax for a new unit (with DSP) from BMW Seattle.

Think I'll post a poll and get some info from our breathren.

Ben
 
#6 ·
Presently, VDO does not repair MIDs, but I don't know their logic. You are correct that a vast majority of E39s all exhibit this flaw in design. I wish they would stand behind them for sure. I mean, you'd be crazy not to wish BMW would replace these for free, but the facts are that all parts will fail at some point and they have to draw the line somewhere. I'm sure that every vehicle has their achilles tendon so to speak, but they have to stop somewhere. I mean we could include vanos, headlight adjusters, cooling systems, SAP systems, and on and on. I think we feel we bought a premium car and should not have these problems. Maybe so, but the picture is pretty black and white and it is what it is. We all had the ability to research these issues beforehand.

I hurts to even mumble the words "they aren't responsible", but if I take the emotion out of it, then that is what I am left with. You can get perfect mids on Ebay for around $200. Remember that you do not need the same part number. If the right side buttons are exactly identical to yours, it will work.
 
#9 ·
I hurts to even mumble the words "they aren't responsible", but if I take the emotion out of it, then that is what I am left with. You can get perfect mids on Ebay for around $200. Remember that you do not need the same part number. If the right side buttons are exactly identical to yours, it will work.
You're absolutely correct - I'm just harping on the lousy outcome of my situation. That said, the rest of the car is great. I should just be counting my lucky stars something catastrophic hasn't failed. "Dude, the glass is half FULL!"

I'm also basing my failure rate assumptions on a VERY small sample size, never a good thing. Ah well, guess I'll take your advice and start trolling in the eBay cesspool for the right deal.

If anyone has a trustworthy source for radio displays at reasonable prices, I'd love to hear from you.

Best,

Ben
 
#10 ·
I sent an email to BMW NA about my radio.
They responded and want all my info, registration, licence, all the info on the car, VIN, etc.
I havent done it yet.

I doubt they will replace it so I guess it is off to eBay and finding a radio display!
Yippie!
 
#11 ·
On Ebay, the only source I trust because he always shows your actual unit being auctioned hooked up in his vehicle is a seller named Germanaudiotech out of California. He has a lot of them in varying conditions. A "perfect one" will run you between $200-$225 An excellent display with maybe a lamp out or a single vertical column will run $150-$175.

I am working on VDO to see why they won't work on them. There are folks around that claim good success repairing them- look on E38.org There is even a DIY to fix there, but I caution you about trying it. He recommends Acetone to take tape off ribbon cable, but it took off not just the tape, but the trace conductive strips as well.
 
#12 ·
On Ebay, the only source I trust because he always shows your actual unit being auctioned hooked up in his vehicle is a seller named Germanaudiotech out of California. He has a lot of them in varying conditions. A "perfect one" will run you between $200-$225 An excellent display with maybe a lamp out or a single vertical column will run $150-$175.

I am working on VDO to see why they won't work on them. There are folks around that claim good success repairing them- look on E38.org There is even a DIY to fix there, but I caution you about trying it. He recommends Acetone to take tape off ribbon cable, but it took off not just the tape, but the trace conductive strips as well.
:eek::eek::eek::eek:
 
#14 ·
Ben, I was at a point where I knew that I would want to replace the MID anyway. What I did not anticipate was that I would make it worse such that it no longer functioned at all. I am pretty handy with electronics so I never envisioned that I would make it worse, but the acetone which the DIY author said to use removed everything- not just the glue and tape that needs to be removed to expose fresh contacts. If you ruin the MID, it is just like one is not installed at all..the radio will play for 30 seconds and then quit.

Let me give you and others a word of caution- something that I found out the hard way. There is a 594 display that came on to Ebay just today. A "594" is the last three numbers in the part number and is really meaningless...there are several with 6 buttons on the right side that will work...ANYWAY, the display is described as "EXCELENT". In MID speak, excellent means that it just has a few missing pixels or maybe a single row or column. If ALL the pixels light up, it will be described as "perfect". Excellent means really that you can read the numbers or letters, but just has a few bad pixels. I would not buy from anyone but Germanaudiotech as he plugs in all his displays and will show you exactly what you will receive. Perfect displays go for $200-225. This "excellent" display that came on today is ****it-now for $150 IIRC and being excellent you need to be prepared when you get it that it will already have some lights missing.
 
#18 ·
Here is VDO's response when I asked why they would not repair the MIDs since they already can do the instrument clusters on our cars. There is not much here to go on, but it comes down to economics in their opinion. I do not know that people would not pay as much for a radio display repair as they would for the cluster, but here is what they said...
I think VDO is missing a great opportunity but what do I know! These are the same people that state that their repair is "different" and will last forever, yet they sell a longer warranty for another 100 bucks! If it is the last repair you will ever need, why would you need a longer warranty? Anyway, here is their answer:


Hello,

All electronics are not the same. The MID is completely different than the instrument cluster. We have determined that the time and replacement parts do not make it a profitable fix.

Sorry that we don’t fix it.

Kind regards,

Sales – VDORepair.com
 
#19 ·
Here is VDO's response when I asked why they would not repair the MIDs since they already can do the instrument clusters on our cars. There is not much here to go on, but it comes down to economics in their opinion. I do not know that people would not pay as much for a radio display repair as they would for the cluster, but here is what they said...
I think VDO is missing a great opportunity but what do I know! These are the same people that state that their repair is "different" and will last forever, yet they sell a longer warranty for another 100 bucks! If it is the last repair you will ever need, why would you need a longer warranty? Anyway, here is their answer:

Hello,

All electronics are not the same. The MID is completely different than the instrument cluster. We have determined that the time and replacement parts do not make it a profitable fix.

Sorry that we don't fix it.

Kind regards,

Sales - VDORepair.com
Hah! Thanks 540iman for the update.
Do you think they work like some of the sponsors? Like Group Buy?
Or maybe send them a link with the MID not working post(s), maybe they change their mind?
The OP will take out and ship the MID, all VDO has to do is to fix the dam thing, which IMHO looks much easier than the odo (no needles)
 
#20 ·
I bet if enough people go to their website and use their feedback form they would change their mind. I doubt they read forums such as this one and have likely decided that repairing your cluster (since you do not need to re-code, etc.) is a money-maker whereas the MID display will never make them squat. I think they have it all wrong as they must know that BMWNA is taking care of 98% of the clusters and at some point they will run out of clusters to fix. MIDs are a different matter as they do not have to compete with BMW since they will not do a goodwill replace. They have no clue how big an opportunity they are missing.

Bill
 
#23 ·
Bluebee, all cars have flaws.
The e39 forum(s) are the strongest forums IMHO, so everything is reported.
Therefore, our cars seem to have soooo many problems. There are not actually. Our cars are performance sedans. Everything that comes with performance, will have a price.
There are a few flaws however:
Weak cooling design
Bad Vanos seals design

Those are the main flaws.

The secondary air system (SAP) or the FSU will eventually break (a good guess is about 100k miles - that's a lot of miles). The 2n SAP actually, after I read quite a few posts, could be prevented by changing the actuator valve (this breaks and takes down the more expensive vacuum pump)
The A/C smell? A/C should be turned off just before arriving home or wherever your destination is - this will prevent accumulating humidity in the ducts
There is a list of maintenance (for the rubbers I use Gummipflege, and my rubbers look like new), one could clean the ICV (idle control valve), etc, etc
Some stuff seems trivial and people don't do it. One part will take down another part, until the whole car breaks down.
We have solid cars, while driving in a luxury environment enjoying decent performance.
Lots of automakers tried to emulate German cars. Most of them could not come close to have a performance luxury car as a WHOLE. So they have compromises.
You can buy a car where quite a few parts last a bit longer, but then you miss the performance, or maybe the luxury. Some have more performnce, but then the interior is like crap. etc, etc.
Sure, there are things that could be done better, but that's why we have forums, so we can educate ourselfs and take action when the brown stuff hits the fan. Knowledge is power.
I had a frozen CCV that tore the VCG. I was not happy, but that's pretty much my incident. And I do love my car. Next time, whenever I notice my oil level going south (about 1/3 to 1/2 qt per 5000 miles) I know the CCV is going and I will change it. Problem fixed. That will happen well after 60k miles on my car.
On a domestic, I changed a PCV valve pretty much every oil change (dino oil = 2000 miles = 25-30 PCV in 60K miles)
0.02
 
#24 · (Edited)
Pixels out on my MID

OK. Understood. All cars have flaws.

But, when I see how badly some things are designed on my 2002 BMW E39, it makes me wonder about that 'vaunted' engineering.

After all, the stuff that breaks a kid could've designed better. I mean, did they ever test these things in real world conditions? Ever?

It just makes me wonder ... that's all. These things are no better than American cars when it comes to some of the design elements.

Anyway, I've only a few pixels out on my 2002 E39 MID... See pic below.

 

Attachments

#29 ·
Guys, this is what I was trying to avoid! How did the OPs post about loss of pixels invite pictures and commentary on cupholders and generic E39 pitfalls? Take it to your own post as there are some who use posts like this for research or pixel learning and all it does is convolute the OPs topic. I thought I clicked on the wrong damn post when I started seeing DIY on cup-holder removal. Please..take it elsewhere. No flames intended. Just keep a topic-on topic. OK? Thanks fellas. Great topics, just wrong place.

Bill
 
#30 ·
I'll put my .02 here on the MID....I am missing the entire bottom line of my MID, but strill very much readable. I was shocked to read above on how that particular vendor grades his used units based on outside condition - I totally missed that and was about to pull the trigger on a used one.

I also had BMWNA replace my gauge cluster under warranty last year with a ton of dead pixels...and let alone, they would not give me back the chrome rings on my gauges (bastards!) after the replacement.

It kills me that I know I can pretty much replace all these items if needed myself (gauge cluster to MID/Radio display), but the new parts are so freaking expensive new...well, any gauge cluster is expensive, but the radio control is just an arse-reaming expensive.

What does this all come down to? About 95% of us will just replace the radio control with a used one and hope that the pixel thing does not reappear for another 30,000 miles...and again, we continue to replace with a used unit that will ultimately do the same thing? What happens in 10 years when these units are harder to find with low mileage? This is a dead end solution and I have never seen this on any other car I have owned. Aside from all the issues I have seen on the e39, this one just kills it for me. The DSP system just sounds bad and now we have dead pixels to deal with. My Delco in my Fiero in 1984 worked flawlessly with the digital readout - it was the fire that killed the radio mind you. Pathetic.

Does anyone know if there is a particular 5 series year for the radio controls (say for DSP for example) that does not have this inherent issue? Is there an alternative stock solution to look into?

 
#32 · (Edited)
I'll put my .02 here on the MID....I am missing the entire bottom line of my MID, but strill very much readable. I was shocked to read above on how that particular vendor grades his used units based on outside condition - I totally missed that and was about to pull the trigger on a used one.

Just to be clear here- When these sellers of MIDS on Ebay describe a unit as "excellent", I guess they sell enough of them that they just rather universally use excellent to mean the display is highly READIBLE, but not perfect. I guess a private party that removes his perfect display from his E39 to say upgrade his stereo might use "excellent" to describe a perfect 100% MID, but the guys like Germanaudiotech and others that sell MIDS on a regular basis will say PERFECT if they have no missing pixels. It does not refer to the outside condition of the units. Just don't want any misunderstanding. Ask about burnt out pixels if you can't see the actual display lite up. You will generally get the truth (i.e. one missing line or couple pixels here and there or maybe a lite behind station memory, etc) or you will get "I dunno I have no way to test it". I would not pay more than maybe $50 for this crap shoot.

What does this all come down to? About 95% of us will just replace the radio control with a used one and hope that the pixel thing does not reappear for another 30,000 miles...and again, we continue to replace with a used unit that will ultimately do the same thing? What happens in 10 years when these units are harder to find with low mileage? This is a dead end solution and I have never seen this on any other car I have owned. Aside from all the issues I have seen on the e39, this one just kills it for me. The DSP system just sounds bad and now we have dead pixels to deal with. My Delco in my Fiero in 1984 worked flawlessly with the digital readout - it was the fire that killed the radio mind you. Pathetic.

So true. You hit all the nails on the head.

Does anyone know if there is a particular 5 series year for the radio controls (say for DSP for example) that does not have this inherent issue? Is there an alternative stock solution to look into?

They are all the same. They all have equal chance of being good or bad. I have seen 1997 MIDS that are perfect and some 2003 MIDS that have a bunch out. The bulbs are not burnt out as we all know..the connection at the ribbon cable gets mechanically compromised. They use a mechanical compression of the ribbon cable by physically pressing it against a circuit board rather than soldering the wires. The pixels will come back on if you can improve the mechanical pressure/connection. You can not clean however without taking apart. Once you do, you may never get it back.
 
#34 ·
Here is a link to the necessary repair. I did not have any luck with it because the acetone ruined my ribbon. I am certainly not saying the author does not know what he is doing. I am just saying it did not work for me. Maybe my technique was sloppy or incorrect. I would not recommend trying this unless you have a MID that is otherwise useless or you really feel ballsy. If nothing else, it will show you what is going on in there and what the issue is.

Use at your own risk!! http://www.bimmerboard.com/forums/posts/504260
 
#36 · (Edited)
Seems like this thread is more like a conversation for two, but for any others that read it later or want to go "where no man has gone before" here is what I would try and I think you would be safe. When you open up the MID you will see that the ribbon cable is like 60 conductor and goes between the circuit board and the glass display itself. At the circuit board, you have 60 (argument's sake) edge connections, the ribbon and its corresponding trace conductive material pressed against the board, a piece of pink foam rubber and this whole "sandwich" is squeezed mechanically together by a thin channel of metal. This channel and the foam rubber strip is what exerts pressure on the ribbon cable forcing it against the corresponding edge connections on the circuit board. My guess is that oxidation occurs between the two parts of the connection-the ribbon and the board.

I would take contact cleaner in an aerosol can and spray it heavily such that the liquid before it evaporated ran down the ribbon and into the crack between the two conductive faces. I would soak it well and then take a pair of needle nose pliers and LIGHTLY squeeze the edges of the channel together to exert more pressure on that mechanical connection.

REMEMBER that you don't want to squeeze hard! You do not want to distort the channel as what will result is more pressure in some areas and then less in others. You may get some pixels back and then lose some other ones! If it were possible without taking the connection apart to slip a thin plastic shim the entire length of the channel that is the idea of what you want here..more pressure down the entire length of the connection. If you had a pair of channel locks with the real wide jaws such that you could squeeze the whole shee-bang the same amount, I think you have a shot at improving things a whole lot. However, my fear is that in time you will start to lose your gains and eventually the connection will not respond.

If you decide to do as the author did and take the whole deal apart, it is tricky to line back up. I would NOT clean with acetone. Maybe a mist of contact cleaner on both sides and flip the rubber over and hope you get it back together in perfect alignment. If I ever have to get another MID, I will be trying this first. If someone has a really bad mid they don't care about or replace and you want to send it to me, I will be glad to experiment if you don't feel comfortable and will return it if it works. I believe I could have saved mine except the acetone took my conductive trace off the ribbon. Sorry for the rant...

Bill oh, thanks to the cup holder guys for understanding!! please chime in.
 
#38 ·
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/e...076436&sspagename=ADME:B:SS:US:1123&viewitem=

This is what I consider a good ad. It is the one that I use. It will fit any car with single Business CD and DSP-maybe others too. Forget the part number. If your car uses one with 6 buttons on the right side (I call it 6, but it's 3 buttons with 2 positions each) this unit will work. This is a good ad where the seller states the condition and a good reason why he removed it.
 
#39 ·
Hi everyone!

I am quite new here, so I am not sure if it is the right place to add my comments to. However, I guess I've got some good news for you. I got my pixels fixed on my instrument cluster a few months back. The pixels were fixed - it did not take very long, it was very cheap, and it still seems to work good! All the pixels have the very same power, it looks quite like a new one...

It is also very good, that this service is available in Europe and also in the US as I know...

If you guys are interested, I can show some pictures, and also can post the link if someone needs it.

Csibor
 
#40 ·
Hi everyone!

I am quite new here, so I am not sure if it is the right place to add my comments to. However, I guess I've got some good news for you. I got my pixels fixed on my instrument cluster a few months back. The pixels were fixed - it did not take very long, it was very cheap, and it still seems to work good! All the pixels have the very same power, it looks quite like a new one...

It is also very good, that this service is available in Europe and also in the US as I know...

If you guys are interested, I can show some pictures, and also can post the link if someone needs it.

Csibor
Csibor- Please do post more information. Did you do the repair yourself or did you send it somewhere to get the repair done? Would you mind telling us what it cost? VDO in the USA will repair the instrument cluster ONLY. They will not do the radio display which is what we are talking about here. Are you speaking of the information display under the tach and speedo or the radio display? VDO here charges $299 I believe which is not "very cheap" in my mind, but cheap is a relative term! Can you tell us what it cost there is USD?

Bill
 
#41 ·
Just an FYI to all of you who are considering buying a "new" used MID off eBay. Look carefully at the picture of the MID before buying. Many do not have the two function lower switch (clock & BC). Thus you will not be able to access your BC through the MID (you can do it through the stalk). These MIDs tend to be a bit cheaper. Those with the two function lower switch are around $200 or more. I picked mine up (perfect pixels) for $119 from midatlanticmotorwerkes. Considering the price of new BMW parts, this is a cheap and easy fix to an annoyance, not a real functional problem. I'm saving my money to fix the REAL problems as they come up. :thumbup:
 
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