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  #1  
Old 12-24-2016, 10:19 AM
adonchev adonchev is offline
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Engine Fan Turns On and Off

Hello,

I am having the following problem with my 2012 BMW x5 35i with N55 Engine (49k miles).

1) I start the car in the garage
2) Wait 2-3 minutes
3) Outside temp ~3C
4) Turn on the heat, lowest climate control fan setting
5) In a few seconds the engine fan turns on, then it tuns off and continues to do this every few seconds. Judging by the sound it makes, I am suspecting the engine fan runs at 100% for a few seconds, stops and then runs again.

If I turn off the heat, in a few seconds the engine fan stops operating in this manner.

If I do this when the car is well below operating temperature (coolant temp below 60C), sometimes the fan remains on and I have to turn off the car to get it stopped.

When I am driving and coolant temperature is ~106C and I turn on the heat, the coolant temperature dips a little and in a few seconds the engine fan turns on again and off and on... If I keep the heat off, I don't see any issues.

I would think the engine fan will turn on when the coolant temperature goes up, it my case it seems the opposite.

I used an ODB tool to scan for any trouble codes, there are none.

Last time I was at the dealer, they recommended to replace my battery because it it 5 years old. I am also wondering if the old battery could be causing this. I did check the voltage, 12-12.3V when the car is off and 14.7 - 15.3V when driving (without the heat). When I turn on the heat, the voltage dips every time the engine fan spins up. (sometimes even goes to 11.6V if the car is not moving)

Any ideas?

Here are some graphs from the ODB Software. The car was still warming up, at the 200th second I turned on the heat and at the ~430th second, I turned off the heat.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9Q7v5BObNwbN05fYzl1R3dlMWs/view?usp=sharing

PS I have done another test but I could reproduce only once because of the low temperatures here in Chicago. When the car interior was over 16C, I turned on the heat at the lowest 16C setting and I did not have the problem (engine fan did not start acting up). I will need to test this one more time to make sure it is reproducible.
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  #2  
Old 12-24-2016, 11:26 AM
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Doug Huffman Doug Huffman is online now
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How do you "turn on the heat?"

Your HVAC should be in AUTO mode with left and right cabin temperatures set to your normal comfortable temperature. In AUTO mode you can step through three fan speeds by pressing the AUTO button. The snowflake AC compressor button should be lighted, the compressor should always be providing cooling for dehumidification.

You have a 1000 watt PTC electric heater after/downstream of the AC evaporator and left and right engine hot water radiators. Before the engine is up to normal operating temperature, the PTC heater draws 80 Amperes from the battery to heat the cabin to the set temperature.
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  #3  
Old 12-24-2016, 12:22 PM
adonchev adonchev is offline
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I have it set to 20C. I just press the button with the larger fan on it. I tried using the Auto (soft/medium) with the snowflake light on. I am getting the same behavior. I need to check again but I think when I switch to cold only airflow (in the menu where you set where the airflow goes to), the engine fan does not act up.
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Old 12-24-2016, 01:01 PM
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Either IHKA is sending the wrong commands to the DME or the electic fan module is acting up. Weak battery can cause the modules to misbehave so I would start with replacing the battery as there is nothing to lose there it being 5 years old.
However the fact that the voltage doesn't dip below 11V when turning on a high load tells me the alternator couldn't keep up with the large electric load change but the battery saved the situation.

My procedure would be:
- replace battery
- control electric fan manually by a diagnostic software and see how it works.
- if it's weird, check ground, power and control signals with an oscilloscope.
- not sure if this can be read in the DME but it would be interesting to read what request IHKA is sending to the DME.
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Old 12-24-2016, 01:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by acoste View Post
However the fact that the voltage doesn't dip below 11V when turning on a high load tells me the alternator couldn't keep up with the large electric load change but the battery saved the situation.
I was thinking about this. The system voltage is on the high side by being around 15V. Means alternator keeps charging the battery at a high rate, this is why it's unable to compensate for the load change.
So fully charge the battery by a wall charger first and see if the symptoms go away.
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  #6  
Old 12-25-2016, 11:26 AM
adonchev adonchev is offline
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I did another test today. Started the car. Heat Off. Drove for about 20 miles, no issues (engine fan did not start). I turned on the climate control to 16C with the AUTO setting on Soft Mode with the AC Compressor (snowflake button) on. Because it was warmer than 16C in the cabin, cold air was blowing. Drove for a while until the cabin got to 16C, again no issues. Engine fan did not start.

I turned the climate control to 16.5C, started getting warm air in the cabin and the engine fan started going on and off every few seconds.

I turned the climate control back to 16C, started getting cool air in the cabin and the engine fan returned back to normal.

Thank you for the previous suggestions! I haven't used an oscilloscope since my computer engineering classes. And I don't know how to/where to measure the control signals. The only thing that I can do is to get the battery changed and as you said it is already 5 years old so not much to lose.

If you have any other suggestions, please let me know.

I will schedule my BMW appt. and will update you later.
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  #7  
Old 12-25-2016, 12:26 PM
ard ard is offline
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"BMW appointment"

Omg no!

Just buy the right AGM battery and replace it. You are far too technical to not do this.

Look into carly, bmwhat, or INPA to 'register'... Or pay $50 for someone to take 5 minutes and press the button on their scanner
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OEM is Original Equipment Manufacturer... EITHER the company that made the OE part or.... A part this is identical to the OE part, but is sold by the OEM under their own label


OEM is not what BMW sells


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  #8  
Old 12-25-2016, 03:18 PM
adonchev adonchev is offline
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I was thinking about this before but gave up on the registration part. This Carly software looks cool. Looks like it will cost me $80 (odb2 wifi) + $50 (app) + $10 (registration in-app purchase) = $140

Given that my car is starting to have more and more problems, investing in this is probably a good idea.

Looking at the battery itself, it costs $300 (part: 61217628740). After rebate, BMW will swap it for $400.

After reading some other threads, disconnecting the negative terminal of the battery for an hour might clear some odd issues.

I should change my plan here to first get the Carly tool, scan the car, disconnect battery for an hour and maybe some new info will come out from all of this.
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  #9  
Old 12-25-2016, 06:18 PM
adonchev adonchev is offline
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@Doug Huffman

Do you know where I can find the fuse for the 1000 watt PCT Heater?
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  #10  
Old 12-25-2016, 06:28 PM
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On the battery mounted fuse block.
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Scepticism and Animal Faith (1923)
Scepticism is the chastity of the intellect, and it is shameful to surrender it too soon or to the first comer: there is nobility in preserving it coolly and proudly through long youth, until at last, in the ripeness of instinct and discretion, it can be safely exchanged for fidelity and happiness.
(The Works of George Santayana p. 65)

Eschew eristical argumentation. I am responsible for what I write, not for your understanding of it.
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  #11  
Old 12-25-2016, 09:36 PM
ard ard is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adonchev View Post
I was thinking about this before but gave up on the registration part. This Carly software looks cool. Looks like it will cost me $80 (odb2 wifi) + $50 (app) + $10 (registration in-app purchase) = $140

Given that my car is starting to have more and more problems, investing in this is probably a good idea.

Looking at the battery itself, it costs $300 (part: 61217628740). After rebate, BMW will swap it for $400.

After reading some other threads, disconnecting the negative terminal of the battery for an hour might clear some odd issues.

I should change my plan here to first get the Carly tool, scan the car, disconnect battery for an hour and maybe some new info will come out from all of this.
Battery is $200 or less.

You are not pricing a "BMW" battery, are you?? The BMW battery is simply a domestic made here in the USA- just like any of the $189, 199, 209 batteries you can buy any day. Nothing magic about them- kinda like buying BMW tires.

If you really want to believe BMW part number is a special german battery carefully crafted in the deutchland, and shipped back here to ensure you maintain pure bloodlines, go for it.



Nice profit for the dealer- $138 for the battery, 10 minutes for some low level grunt to install it, they do a 'courtest inspection' and the SA pitches you anohter $600 in service. They pocket ~$250 for 10 minutes- and actually there is a signiifcant chance they never even register the new battery. Its happened.




HOWEVER........ Im not really following your issues, but any chance something is up with your water pump? Did the dealer specifically say the thermal and fan issues you are seeing is in fact related tot he battery, or was the battery recommendation just a general recommendation?
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Alignment here: The Definitive Alignment Thread

OE is Original Equipment aka 'BMW Original Parts' aka 'What you buy at the BMW dealer with a BMW label'

OEM is Original Equipment Manufacturer... EITHER the company that made the OE part or.... A part this is identical to the OE part, but is sold by the OEM under their own label


OEM is not what BMW sells


http://www.bimmerzone.com/category/T...ricks_OEM.html

https://www.turnermotorsport.com/t-OEvsOEM

Last edited by ard; 12-26-2016 at 11:10 AM. Reason: clarity
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  #12  
Old 12-26-2016, 10:12 AM
pshovest pshovest is offline
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Erratic fan speed is often an indication of a cooling system problem.....bad thermostat or failing pump. If the engine starts without the "increased battery discharge" warning, I would leave the battery alone. Your charging system at 14.8V+ seems to be working. Coolant at 106C is on the high side of what I see. Are you reading this w/ your OBD tool or thru the OBC? Consider unlocking the OBC, going to test 7 and monitor the coolant temp in cluster while you drive.

Last edited by pshovest; 12-26-2016 at 05:53 PM.
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  #13  
Old 12-26-2016, 01:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Huffman View Post
On the battery mounted fuse block.

Here is that electric heater.
The electric water pump is also drawing more current when the cabin heater is on.



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Last edited by acoste; 12-26-2016 at 01:39 PM.
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  #14  
Old 12-26-2016, 04:23 PM
ard ard is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by acoste View Post
Here is that electric heater.]
So first, take the dash off....
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Alignment here: The Definitive Alignment Thread

OE is Original Equipment aka 'BMW Original Parts' aka 'What you buy at the BMW dealer with a BMW label'

OEM is Original Equipment Manufacturer... EITHER the company that made the OE part or.... A part this is identical to the OE part, but is sold by the OEM under their own label


OEM is not what BMW sells


http://www.bimmerzone.com/category/T...ricks_OEM.html

https://www.turnermotorsport.com/t-OEvsOEM
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  #15  
Old 12-26-2016, 06:59 PM
adonchev adonchev is offline
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@ard
I am not suspecting the water pump because if I don't use the heat, the engine fan is not acting up. Maybe I am right at the point where the water pump is slightly failing, and when the heat is activated it needs to work harder and it causes the issue. But, when I turn on the heat, the coolant temp. in hidden menu 7 goes down so why would the engine fan spin up. This is why I don't think it is the water pump (yet). The dealer recommended the battery change because of age and winter season.

@pshovest
I was reading the coolant temp with the hidden menu #7. While driving, I was seeing values anywhere between 95C and 110C. But when the heat was off, even at 110C, the engine fan would not spin up. Is 110C a lot? I read somewhere that the first threshold is at 121C but now sure if the source of that info is good.

I got the Carly WiFi and App today. Scanned the car for any error codes and I got the following 6 errors. Still have not found any good source of info to explain what it all means.

Engine / Motor:
- Fault: Oil condition sensor, electrical: level malfunction
- Code: 00343F

Instrument cluster / Kombiinstrument:
- Fault: CAN signal fault indicator
- Code: 00A3B1
- Fault: Shutdown
- Code: 00A559

Gear switch / Gangschalter:
- Fault: sorry, unknown DTC fault
- Code: 00E095

Flexible Bus-Interface / Schnittstelle:
- Fault: :Ring break diagnosis error
- Code: 00E150
- Fault: sorry, unknown DTC fault
- Code: 00AA11

Last edited by adonchev; 12-26-2016 at 07:40 PM.
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  #16  
Old 12-26-2016, 08:30 PM
ard ard is offline
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One observation- when you see a mass of errors, which dont point to a clear coherent cause and effect- and some of the errors relate to bus communications- one should thing about the battery. Hate being always on the 'change the battery' crowd...

If you reset the errors, do these come back? or others? This can be a good test.

Low battery capacity can result in the BMW smart charging system actually 'starving' some modules at start up and in the moments afterwards- current is shunted tot he starter, no problems with turning over- but once running there isnt enough power and various modules can then trip communications failures.

Do you have an AGM battery charger?

Clear codes, see what comes back
Fully charge the battery- see if it still does the odd fan behaviors AND see if the codes come back. If they hold off for a while, that in and of itself would be useful diagnostics

GL
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Alignment here: The Definitive Alignment Thread

OE is Original Equipment aka 'BMW Original Parts' aka 'What you buy at the BMW dealer with a BMW label'

OEM is Original Equipment Manufacturer... EITHER the company that made the OE part or.... A part this is identical to the OE part, but is sold by the OEM under their own label


OEM is not what BMW sells


http://www.bimmerzone.com/category/T...ricks_OEM.html

https://www.turnermotorsport.com/t-OEvsOEM
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  #17  
Old 12-26-2016, 11:16 PM
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acoste acoste is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adonchev View Post

@pshovest
I was reading the coolant temp with the hidden menu #7. While driving, I was seeing values anywhere between 95C and 110C. But when the heat was off, even at 110C, the engine fan would not spin up. Is 110C a lot? I read somewhere that the first threshold is at 121C but now sure if the source of that info is good.

These are normal values. When driving the car lightly, the coolant temp goes up to around 105 for better fuel consumption, and when driving it hard it goes down below 100C to keep the engine cool.
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Old 12-27-2016, 05:47 AM
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your water pump is no good. let me guess the car has somewhere between 40-60k miles? if your fan at times is running full blast on and off its a clear sign the pump is failing.
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Old 12-27-2016, 08:02 AM
adonchev adonchev is offline
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I cleared the error codes. Drove for a few minutes, no codes came back. Activated the heat for a while, first code that I saw, a new one:

Satellite Front Right Door
- Fault: sorry, unknown DTC fault
- Code: 00AB68

Drove some more with the heat on, two of the old codes came back

Flexible Bus-Interface / Schnittstelle:
- Fault: :Ring break diagnosis error
- Code: 00E150
- Fault: sorry, unknown DTC fault
- Code: 00AA11
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  #20  
Old 12-27-2016, 11:35 AM
adonchev adonchev is offline
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Had to leave the car at the dealership...

Decided to drive for 30 minutes without the heat on and collect some stats with the Carly app. I hit some hills on my test drive, coolant temp got to over 120C, got a warning to slow down. Had to stop and wait for the engine to cool down. Drove to the dealer with the heat on, which was triggering the engine fan periodically and the coolant temp was around 90C-95C.
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  #21  
Old 12-27-2016, 01:22 PM
ingenieur ingenieur is offline
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The coolant pump may not even be activated during warmup - but if heat is requested it must.

Besides moving coolant i- the pump is smart and must respond on the BSD line to the DME - if this is down then the DME must assume engine protection is needed.

Much of this is described in the technical documents...just not able to pdf anything at the moment.
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Old 12-29-2016, 08:02 PM
adonchev adonchev is offline
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The BMW Service Center replaced the water pump and the t-stat. It looks like the water pump stopped working. T-stat damaged due to overheating (it states in the documents). They also had to replace my radiator because it was leaking.

Car is running fine now and so far no fault codes are coming up in the Carly app.

When everything is working well, the fan only goes up to 10%-11% when needed (not like before when it was jumping to over 90%). The coolant temp goes up to 108C, once it goes higher than that the fan spins up to 10%-11% and the coolant goes back down to 107-108C. Oil temperature is at around 110-111C. Ambient temperature was ~1C.

When the heat is turned on, the coolant temp goes down to 105C and it stays there. Engine fan does not get activated. Battery voltage is no longer in the 15V, it is between 14.5 and 14.6V for the most part while driving. No sudden voltage dips when the engine fan activates.
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Old 12-29-2016, 11:05 PM
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Old 12-29-2016, 11:18 PM
ard ard is offline
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Warranty or $$$$?

Im guessing $3k?
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Alignment here: The Definitive Alignment Thread

OE is Original Equipment aka 'BMW Original Parts' aka 'What you buy at the BMW dealer with a BMW label'

OEM is Original Equipment Manufacturer... EITHER the company that made the OE part or.... A part this is identical to the OE part, but is sold by the OEM under their own label


OEM is not what BMW sells


http://www.bimmerzone.com/category/T...ricks_OEM.html

https://www.turnermotorsport.com/t-OEvsOEM
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  #25  
Old 12-30-2016, 06:08 AM
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