[GalDemSuga]

Guys

I have been dealing with no crank no start issues over last 2 weeks. No crank, No start, but all the electronics in the car work. The car was just redone, engine overhauled and transmission serviced. Since getting it back I have had this gremlin. I just replaced a 2 week old starter again, had a new key made, replaced the IVM module, new 30G relay in the truck, added new grounds to post under the hood, cleaned up the grounds to DME and right engine mount, and with all that I still have this issue.

The battery is less than 2 years old and it puts out over 12.5 volts with car sitting and the charging system shows me 14.2 volts when the car is running. I just got back from the having the battery tested at AutoZone (failed even though it reads 12.7 volts), at the O'Reilly's (failed even though it puts out 12.65 volts) and it passed at the Advanced Auto Parts (reads good battery on their tester).

I do not have a means of checking for codes (INPA etc) and my regular code reader shows no codes.

I can however start the car even when it gives the no crank situation. I just keep cycling the key on and off and eventually the car will start.

 

[spinner99]

Hi

I don't have a magic answer, and you may not want to hear this, but without codes you can keep firing the parts cannon and hope it sorts it, or you're going to need to work through the issue. Problems like this may not have a code either so don't get overly concerned about chasing a code. Intermittent faults are the worst because you never really know if you've fixed it!

I'd recommend watching some videos on youtube from "ScannerDanner" - hes very good at explaining what he's doing and he shows some great processes.

I don't know what you're scanner is, but It would be helpful if you had a copy of ISTA+ to read fault codes with. Apart from that I recommend you start reading electrical diagrams on newtis.info and work the problem back. Here's the one for the starting system - this is probably the one to read. https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/...rain/engine-start/convenient-starting/rXEVO7F .

A back probing kit would probably be helpful too. Something like this - https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00G9C3RSU

good luck!

 

[e60545ipaul]

Check all of your connections. I had 2 issues last year. Intermittent start on my 545i. First one, after the engine was put in, was the positive at the junction block was loose and not through bolted. Second was a loose ground strap from passenger side engine mount to body ground (post is by the ECU box) thought it was the starter so I changed it out and still had issues. I figured it out when I took a jumper cable and connected it from the starter casing to body ground. I also added a ground lead from rear lifting ring bolt to body gnd and haven't had a problem since.

Sent from my SM-G965U1 using Tapatalk

 

[GalDemSuga]

Hi

I don't have a magic answer, and you may not want to hear this, but without codes you can keep firing the parts cannon and hope it sorts it, or you're going to need to work through the issue. Problems like this may not have a code either so don't get overly concerned about chasing a code. Intermittent faults are the worst because you never really know if you've fixed it!

I'd recommend watching some videos on youtube from "ScannerDanner" - hes very good at explaining what he's doing and he shows some great processes.

I don't know what you're scanner is, but It would be helpful if you had a copy of ISTA+ to read fault codes with. Apart from that I recommend you start reading electrical diagrams on newtis.info and work the problem back. Here's the one for the starting system - this is probably the one to read. https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/...rain/engine-start/convenient-starting/rXEVO7F .

A back probing kit would probably be helpful too. Something like this - https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00G9C3RSU

good luck!

Thanks for the pointers. :thumbup:

 

[GalDemSuga]

Check all of your connections. I had 2 issues last year. Intermittent start on my 545i. First one, after the engine was put in, was the positive at the junction block was loose and not through bolted. Second was a loose ground strap from passenger side engine mount to body ground (post is by the ECU box) thought it was the starter so I changed it out and still had issues. I figured it out when I took a jumper cable and connected it from the starter casing to body ground. I also added a ground lead from rear lifting ring bolt to body gnd and haven't had a problem since.

Sent from my SM-G965U1 using Tapatalk

The first move I made was look at all connections. The starter connections were cleaned and doubled (I put a backup nut on both starter connections). I created new grounds from starter to chassis and from engine to chassis. The car won't start even when boosted with a battery pack. The voltage at the battery and the jump terminals under hood are the same and charging system shows 14.2 volts when running. The IBS whether plugged in or unplugged makes no difference (I keep it plugged in by default).

Whats funny is right now I can go into the car and it will crank with no issue, but lets say I drove for a while and stopped for fuel or a burger, then the car will no crank no start then magically start if i keep cycling the key on and off.

 

[twh]

You really need a BMW aware code reader.

 

[GalDemSuga]

You really need a BMW aware code reader.

Yes I agree.

 

[GalDemSuga]

I'm still chasing this issue. I have a laptop on the way to run INPA (got some guidance on diagnostic software from ShawnSeridan) but it hasn't arrived yet.

In the meantime I have installed two re-manufactured AutoZone starters before going back to the used OEM Bosch and I still have this intermittent no crank no start issue. After every drive and with the car running great in every way and I stop and shut it down, no crank no start. I then wait 30 minutes and it cranks without no issue then.

 

[spinner99]

Hi There

The only reason I can think of to change the starter is because you have power at the starter, but it's not turning. Is that the case?

If not - looking at the electrical diagram - inputs to give power to the starter come from

The start/stop button
Key Holder (Slide-in Compartment)
The transmission
The brake light switch
Fuse F7 & F8
DME (Engine computer)
Steering Lock
Car Access System (CAS)

I may have this wrong, sorry if i do - but from my first scan

The starter gets power from the battery (positive) and the control circuit comes from the IVM (2.5 milimeter diameter white wire)
The IVM gets inputs from the DME & CAS for when to power up the starter
The CAS takes inputs from
- DSC (Not sure what this is for)
- Brake light switch (you have your foot on the brake pedal)
- EWS (Security) (You aren't stealing the car)
- Transmission (Transmission is in Park or Neutral)
- Key Holder (Slide in System) - The key is in the holder and is for this car
- Start/Stop button (You want to start the car)

You may have a broken wire or loose wire.
You could have a bad relay
It could be a partial break that only happens when it's warm or cold, or could make a connection when moved.
It could be a loose connection.
You could have a bad module.

Without a code reader, you can still start by checking powers and grounds and follow it back. So - if you're getting a no crank - start by checking if the starter is getting power or not.
Assuming not, head over to the relays for the IVM (#2 & #4) and check the inputs and outputs of those.
If they aren't getting power from the CAS - start checking the inputs to the CAS - e.g. get something on PIN 2 & 32 on connector X10318 and confirm when you put your foot on and off the brake the circuit opens and closes. Check that when you put the car between park and reverse the circuit for PIN 6 & 41 close and open respectively. And just work your way through the inputs in the diagram. Hopefully you'll find the circuit that's causing problems then can work through the issue from there.

If all the easy stuff is looking good, then start llooking at the key side - e.g. is the key good, is the EWS getting and giving the right signals etc. I'm not 100% sure so I may be corrected but I'm under the impression an EWS issue (e.g it's unhappy with the key) will still let the engine crank but won't let it start. It's probably easier to look into this side of it once you have ISTA.

All the best

 

[GalDemSuga]

Hi There

The only reason I can think of to change the starter is because you have power at the starter, but it's not turning. Is that the case?

If not - looking at the electrical diagram - inputs to give power to the starter come from

The start/stop button
Key Holder (Slide-in Compartment)
The transmission
The brake light switch
Fuse F7 & F8
DME (Engine computer)
Steering Lock
Car Access System (CAS)

I may have this wrong, sorry if i do - but from my first scan

The starter gets power from the battery (positive) and the control circuit comes from the IVM (2.5 milimeter diameter white wire)
The IVM gets inputs from the DME & CAS for when to power up the starter
The CAS takes inputs from
- DSC (Not sure what this is for)
- Brake light switch (you have your foot on the brake pedal)
- EWS (Security) (You aren't stealing the car)
- Transmission (Transmission is in Park or Neutral)
- Key Holder (Slide in System) - The key is in the holder and is for this car
- Start/Stop button (You want to start the car)

You may have a broken wire or loose wire.
You could have a bad relay
It could be a partial break that only happens when it's warm or cold, or could make a connection when moved.
It could be a loose connection.
You could have a bad module.

Without a code reader, you can still start by checking powers and grounds and follow it back. So - if you're getting a no crank - start by checking if the starter is getting power or not.
Assuming not, head over to the relays for the IVM (#2 & #4) and check the inputs and outputs of those.
If they aren't getting power from the CAS - start checking the inputs to the CAS - e.g. get something on PIN 2 & 32 on connector X10318 and confirm when you put your foot on and off the brake the circuit opens and closes. Check that when you put the car between park and reverse the circuit for PIN 6 & 41 close and open respectively. And just work your way through the inputs in the diagram. Hopefully you'll find the circuit that's causing problems then can work through the issue from there.

If all the easy stuff is looking good, then start llooking at the key side - e.g. is the key good, is the EWS getting and giving the right signals etc. I'm not 100% sure so I may be corrected but I'm under the impression an EWS issue (e.g it's unhappy with the key) will still let the engine crank but won't let it start. It's probably easier to look into this side of it once you have ISTA.

All the best

I haven't taken car out on the road in a week. Its been on four jack stands as I try to solve this issue. I have ran it until hot while monitoring the cooling system and voltage. Everything about it runs 100% but after some time once warmed up, it does this no crank no start. I walk away for 20-30 minutes then try again and it fires no problem.

I did some voltage monitoring of car while having the no crank issue and it stays above 12 volts at the jump terminals under the hood. I confirmed voltage to starter, I checked for voltage at Fuse 8 on IVM (IVM module is new). I checked voltage at pin #15 on the X60093 connector when cranking and I see the starter getting 12 volts before dropping off after car starts. Now during the no crank no start issue I didn't see voltage going to the starter on pin# 15 although I had voltage at the large starter power cable coming from the jumper positive post. With that in mind I changed starter (3 different times so that is ruled out as being the issue :dunno I am an expert now at removing the big bad N62 starter and I gotta say after searching far and wide on forums and Youtube (finding nothing significant for N62 engine starter removal) it is now cake .

I had a second key made and it didn't solve the issue, both keys start or don't start car when she acts up. I have deliberately not pushed the brake pedal when having this issue and car warns me every time to depress pedal. I have tried starting in neutral and no change to no crank problem.

I will look at the relays you mentioned next.

 

[spinner99]

Yeah I wouldn't of though changing the starter would be a fun job, especialy more than once! It does sound like something is failing when it's hot. It sounds more like a not getting the signal to the starter problem rather than a low voltage problem.

Good update - no voltage at PIN 15 on X60093 pretty much eliminates the starter itself as being the problem.

Please accept my apologies if I'm telling you how to suck eggs.

Re the starter - (according to the diagram) I expect there to be three wires

1 x Red cable 25mm in diameter - this is the battery positive and should always have power. (That's why we need to disconnect the battery when playing with the alternator or starter).
1 x White wire - 2.5mm in diameter - this is the switched positive - e.g. it will only have power when the car wants the starter motor to run. (the other end is PIN 15 on X60093).
There's no mention of an earth on the diagram so either the starter gets it's earth via the engine earth or it's in another diagram. If the earth wire does exist it's probably brown and equally sized to the battery positive cable.

For checking those relays

I see you checked for voltage at Fuse 8 but didn't mention what the result was. It looks like the relays for the IVM are all in the box with the DME, so up to you but possibly you could just check at that end. During the no crank/ no start you'll be looking for

1. Power on PIN 1 on connector X13844 - it should be a 6mm diameter Red wire with a white stripe
2. Power on PIN 14 on connector X6009 - it should be a 2.5mm diameter black wire
3. Power on PIN 22 on connector X60094 - it should be a 0.5mm diameter brown wire
4. Power on PIN 15 on connector X6009 - it should be a 0.35mm diameter brown wire with a red stripe.

Re #3 I might be wrong about the power on this. Brown is usually a negative/earth wire on BMW's so if that hasn't got power keep it in the back of your mind but maybe get a second opinion before chasing it down.

Im' hoping that you have power on all 4 and it's just a bad relay. Just thinking out loud of what gets warm while the car is running - that would be anything in the engine bay, but it's plausible some modules would warm up with power going through them - just like your PC does when it's on.

I might go have a play with ISTA tomorrow and see what I can see around confirmations of other inputs to the CAS so you know what you can see once you get a copy.

 

[e60545ipaul]

This sounds so much like the problems I had with my 545. I ended up adding a ground wire from the rear lifting ring bolt to the body ground. Did you change out the ground strap, or at least clean the connections or just check if it was tight. Adding a cheap 4' 4gage battery cable as an additional ground seemed to satisfy my issues 100% it should take you a 1/2 hour or so..good luck.

Sent from my SM-G965U1 using Tapatalk

 

[scottalexander]

The car starts and something is heating up.

After 20 minutes of a cool down, something is obviously cooling down and allowing current to reach the starter motor.

When the car starts and is running for a while reaching operating temperature, what is getting too hot at that point?

For example, is it a wire near the exhaust system that is touching the exhaust? When the exhaust cools after 20 minutes current then flows to the starter.

 

[GalDemSuga]

Yeah I wouldn't of though changing the starter would be a fun job, especialy more than once! It does sound like something is failing when it's hot. It sounds more like a not getting the signal to the starter problem rather than a low voltage problem.

Good update - no voltage at PIN 15 on X60093 pretty much eliminates the starter itself as being the problem.

Please accept my apologies if I'm telling you how to suck eggs.

Re the starter - (according to the diagram) I expect there to be three wires

1 x Red cable 25mm in diameter - this is the battery positive and should always have power. (That's why we need to disconnect the battery when playing with the alternator or starter).
1 x White wire - 2.5mm in diameter - this is the switched positive - e.g. it will only have power when the car wants the starter motor to run. (the other end is PIN 15 on X60093).
There's no mention of an earth on the diagram so either the starter gets it's earth via the engine earth or it's in another diagram. If the earth wire does exist it's probably brown and equally sized to the battery positive cable.

For checking those relays

I see you checked for voltage at Fuse 8 but didn't mention what the result was. It looks like the relays for the IVM are all in the box with the DME, so up to you but possibly you could just check at that end. During the no crank/ no start you'll be looking for

1. Power on PIN 1 on connector X13844 - it should be a 6mm diameter Red wire with a white stripe
2. Power on PIN 14 on connector X6009 - it should be a 2.5mm diameter black wire
3. Power on PIN 22 on connector X60094 - it should be a 0.5mm diameter brown wire
4. Power on PIN 15 on connector X6009 - it should be a 0.35mm diameter brown wire with a red stripe.

Re #3 I might be wrong about the power on this. Brown is usually a negative/earth wire on BMW's so if that hasn't got power keep it in the back of your mind but maybe get a second opinion before chasing it down.

Im' hoping that you have power on all 4 and it's just a bad relay. Just thinking out loud of what gets warm while the car is running - that would be anything in the engine bay, but it's plausible some modules would warm up with power going through them - just like your PC does when it's on.

I might go have a play with ISTA tomorrow and see what I can see around confirmations of other inputs to the CAS so you know what you can see once you get a copy.

I was checking Fuse 8 and it was max of 0.24 volts during no crank no start that voltage was 0.000-0.24 volts.

I will do more tests today.

Added some video links :

Charging System Voltage - https://youtu.be/fTBkyQ61shk

Battery Voltage during No Crank No Start- https://youtu.be/z7ZufKxgSxg

Voltage @ IVM module Fuse 8 During No Crank No Start - https://youtu.be/L5grNy5liqA

 

[GalDemSuga]

This sounds so much like the problems I had with my 545. I ended up adding a ground wire from the rear lifting ring bolt to the body ground. Did you change out the ground strap, or at least clean the connections or just check if it was tight. Adding a cheap 4' 4gage battery cable as an additional ground seemed to satisfy my issues 100% it should take you a 1/2 hour or so..good luck.

Sent from my SM-G965U1 using Tapatalk

I added 2 new grounds; one at starter to jump terminal under hood and one from engine lifting support to jump terminal. I also cleaned up the two grounds for the car; at the DME box and at the engine support bracket to frame on the passenger side.

The problem still persists

 

[GalDemSuga]

The car starts and something is heating up.

After 20 minutes of a cool down, something is obviously cooling down and allowing current to reach the starter motor.

When the car starts and is running for a while reaching operating temperature, what is getting too hot at that point?

For example, is it a wire near the exhaust system that is touching the exhaust? When the exhaust cools after 20 minutes current then flows to the starter.

No.. The entire car is tip top as it relates to anything near the exhaust system. I spent hours under there looking it over and using zip ties to secure wires. There are no missing heat shields under the car. There was one missing heat shield support bracket on the passenger side of transmission, so I made my own and it works to help hold up the transmission cover securely.

 

[scottalexander]

I mentioned a possible wire heating up between the transmission and engine because last night I watched DiagnoseDAN video on Youtube.
He fixed a no start condition because a wire was touching the transmission when the engine was hot.

Next:

DiagnoseDAN has a few no start videos due to:

- malfunction MAF sensor
- malfunction Door handle
- etc

His work might give you some ideas.

 

[GalDemSuga]

I mentioned a possible wire heating up between the transmission and engine because last night I watched DiagnoseDAN video on Youtube.
He fixed a no start condition because a wire was touching the transmission when the engine was hot.

Next:

DiagnoseDAN has a few no start videos due to:

- malfunction MAF sensor
- malfunction Door handle
- etc

His work might give you some ideas.

There are some wires secured to transmission below the starter. They are for the Oxygen Sensors and some others that are transmission related I think.

 

[scottalexander]

In the DiagnoseDan video, a shop removed the customers transmission a year earlier to do some work on the transmission.

They didn't put a wire back correctly in its bracket when reinstalling the transmission.

The car would not start when hot.

A wire between the transmission and engine was not in its bracket and was lying on a hot surface.

 

[GalDemSuga]

In the DiagnoseDan video, a shop removed the customers transmission a year earlier to do some work on the transmission.

They didn't put a wire back correctly in its bracket when reinstalling the transmission.

The car would not start when hot.

A wire between the transmission and engine was not in its bracket and was lying on a hot surface.

Can you send the link to that video? This car just came from an Indy as I had the engine overhauled, transmission serviced, new suspension and new brakes. I haven't been able to enjoy it ever since that work was done. The Indy is a retired BMW tech and he is elderly. Given the COVID19 concerns he is not willing to look at the car. I have been trying to solve it myself.

I didn't have a no crank no start issue prior to the rebuild.