BimmerFest BMW Forum banner

1 - 20 of 52 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
42 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
As the title says the bolt to the intake camshaft broke (broken piece still in the camshaft) and of course car died, it was on the street going slow, it started to run a bit bad and then it just died, tried to turn a few times and nothing. Then noticed the lower part of the engine was spinning but camshaft was not.
1032759

1032760

1032761
1032762

1032763

So my next step is to find a factory manual if possible and buy the gear and camshaft, install it get the timing tool and install it back then take compression. I need to know if the valves were affected on this. The car had the lower return hose break while driving and adding water every 10 miles or so it made it to my sons friends house where he left it overnight. He was actually monitoring using the oil temp. that was at 190 to 250F, when he would add water. The hose was replaced and the issue with the camshaft bolt snapping happened the next day after restart. Was running a bit like there was a leak in the exhaust. he drove it up and down the street and upon stopping the car died.
So this is where I am at with the car. In order to check timing I need to fix this issue first and then take timing on all six.
Any ideas on the valves if they are affected by this?
Timing chain is fine. Very odd that the bolt snapped. Don't know if it's a coincidence or direct result

Wanted to mention that the plastics on BMWs are shit. I have never seen such bad manufacturing on any car. They are ridiculous, probably from the engine temps, but the plastics in these cars actually cook to the point when they shatter. Really shitty from reputable maker to have this issue. I guess the only solution is to change all the hoses at 75k miles, and intake hoses also.
Also forgot to mention that the chain guide also broke and luckily it's built to be replaced without having to take out the head.
1032764


1032765
 

·
Registered
Ship Captain of the Ever Given
Joined
·
872 Posts
Brother get rid of that thing. Not only was it driven with a compromised cooling system, it now has a failure that may or may not have bent valves and stuff. Not to mention you’ve been having transmission problems in your previous post and you know factually even if the engine is ok your entire cooling system needs rebuilt. Seems like maybe it’s just time to move on…imho
 

·
Registered
E93 335i, somewhat mod <> Fog City, CA
Joined
·
2,667 Posts
.
gica - How long have you owned the car?

Mileage?

328i or 335i?

Gotta go with HotGrbg - what's the financial hit if you do sell it? Assuming it's fixed.

.
 

·
Registered
Ship Captain of the Ever Given
Joined
·
872 Posts
From the color of the guides and oil staining on the mechanical components I’m guessing it’s a ton of miles. Sad but I don’t know if the juice is worth the squeeze on this one
 

·
Registered
3/2007 328xi E91
Joined
·
3,389 Posts
As the title says the bolt to the intake camshaft broke (broken piece still in the camshaft) and of course car died, it was on the street going slow, it started to run a bit bad and then it just died, tried to turn a few times and nothing. Then noticed the lower part of the engine was spinning but camshaft was not...
Any ideas on the valves if they are affected by this?
Timing chain is fine. [Perhaps the part you can see is "fine", but my guess is that the edges are worn if chain was off rear of Sprocket upon disassembly.] Very odd that the bolt snapped. Don't know if it's a coincidence or direct result...
Your photos suggest to me that the FIRST EVENT in the failure process was that the Timing Chain came OFF the Intake Cam Sprocket to the REAR of the Sprocket. For the brief instant that the Engine continued to rotate after that (or during Starter Cranking after Engine died), the Timing Chain ground the rear of the Sprocket, wedged between Sprocket and front face of Intake Cam (also ground away), and THAT caused the bolt to shear (IF in fact the bolt broke before someone began disassembly). Someone who studies such things could examine the bolt at the broken end and get a good idea of the forces placed upon the bolt that caused it to break.

Either I'm DENSE, or something is Missing/Wrong with your description of WHAT caused the damage shown in the photos.
HOW did ANYONE "notice the lower part of the engine was spinning but camshaft was NOT"?
What NOISE was associated with this "phenomenon"?
WHAT scraped the rear of the Intake Sprocket and the front face of the Intake Camshaft?
When first seen after Valve Cover removal, was the Timing Chain OFF the rear of the Intake Sprocket?
HOW could ONE of FOUR bolts holding VANOS to Cam break BEFORE the chain came off sprocket?
What do the other THREE Cam Bolts look like?
Was that vehicle subject to the "VANOS BOLT RECALL", and was it performed?
Is there a "Label" on the B-Pillar at driver door? The VANOS Bolts themselves are intact per your photos, but if the timing chain came off Intake Sprocket, WHAT caused that?

You don't say if engine is N52 or N55. AFAIK, BOTH are "Interference" engines, meaning that if a cam quits turning to open and close the valves at proper "timing" in relation to Crankshaft rotation and piston travel up/down, the OPEN Valves WILL Contact the top of the piston in that cylinder. That is NOT a "silent event". :eek:

I would NOT spend time repairing the obvious things shown in your photos UNTIL I examined EACH cylinder with an Endoscope/ Bore Scope, removed the Cam, and tested EACH valve for proper movement in the guide, and seal (using compressed air via the sparkplug hole). In other words check for damaged pistons, valve face damage, or bent valve stems. Then there is also the issue of "filings" from chain contact with cam & sprocket, and whether any of that is going to damage bearings.

Identifying part numbers of any replacement parts needed is easy (dodging the ads is hard ;-) using RealOEM.com -- just enter your Last-7 VIN Characters and Browse Parts (Engine/ 1125 Valve Train).

George
 

·
Anti-Hack
Joined
·
5,748 Posts
As George mentioned, if the crank kept turning while the cam did not, some valves are toast.

The ONLY time I’ve ever encountered the main bolt shearing is with aftermarket components; was someone in there in the past, or was this a recent purchase? I’ve seen aftermarket VVT sprockets grenade inside of 100 miles. I’ve also seen chains jump, but never wedge a sprocket off, but anything is possible.

But here we are: you’ll need to pull the head, thoroughly measure and evaluate the situation (new valves are a given). Drain the oil, look for glitter. It’s subjective (I HATE subjective), but if excessive, you may want to replace rod bearings, or at the very least drop the pan, check for rod play, and replace the oil pump. When pumps are full of glitter, I just replace rather than clean, it’s not worth my time.

It may simply be cheaper, and certainly easier, to just replace the engine, depending on your skill set and tool access. Just make sure you compression check it first; I’ve hooked up batteries and ran engines dancing across shop floors in the past prior to purchase.


Sent from my iPhone using Bimmerfest
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
42 Posts
Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Your photos suggest to me that the FIRST EVENT in the failure process was that the Timing Chain came OFF the Intake Cam Sprocket to the REAR of the Sprocket. For the brief instant that the Engine continued to rotate after that (or during Starter Cranking after Engine died), the Timing Chain ground the rear of the Sprocket, wedged between Sprocket and front face of Intake Cam (also ground away), and THAT caused the bolt to shear (IF in fact the bolt broke before someone began disassembly). Someone who studies such things could examine the bolt at the broken end and get a good idea of the forces placed upon the bolt that caused it to break.

Either I'm DENSE, or something is Missing/Wrong with your description of WHAT caused the damage shown in the photos.
HOW did ANYONE "notice the lower part of the engine was spinning but camshaft was NOT"?
What NOISE was associated with this "phenomenon"?
WHAT scraped the rear of the Intake Sprocket and the front face of the Intake Camshaft?
When first seen after Valve Cover removal, was the Timing Chain OFF the rear of the Intake Sprocket?
HOW could ONE of FOUR bolts holding VANOS to Cam break BEFORE the chain came off sprocket?
What do the other THREE Cam Bolts look like?
Was that vehicle subject to the "VANOS BOLT RECALL", and was it performed?
Is there a "Label" on the B-Pillar at driver door? The VANOS Bolts themselves are intact per your photos, but if the timing chain came off Intake Sprocket, WHAT caused that?

You don't say if engine is N52 or N55. AFAIK, BOTH are "Interference" engines, meaning that if a cam quits turning to open and close the valves at proper "timing" in relation to Crankshaft rotation and piston travel up/down, the OPEN Valves WILL Contact the top of the piston in that cylinder. That is NOT a "silent event". :eek:

I would NOT spend time repairing the obvious things shown in your photos UNTIL I examined EACH cylinder with an Endoscope/ Bore Scope, removed the Cam, and tested EACH valve for proper movement in the guide, and seal (using compressed air via the sparkplug hole). In other words check for damaged pistons, valve face damage, or bent valve stems. Then there is also the issue of "filings" from chain contact with cam & sprocket, and whether any of that is going to damage bearings.

Identifying part numbers of any replacement parts needed is easy (dodging the ads is hard ;-) using RealOEM.com -- just enter your Last-7 VIN Characters and Browse Parts (Engine/ 1125 Valve Train).

George
The E92N has an N51 engine.
The event that intimately led to the car dying were listed before. The return cooling hose that goes at the bottom of the front of the engine and it connects across the front, broke off right in the middle.
Warning came on car got pulled over attempts were made to attach the hose with duck tape and zip ties to allow some driving to get to a point to allow for overnight parking.
Refilling the system every 7 miles or so with distilled water.
The warning never came back.
Next day I went to the car with an oem hose and fluid and replaced it. This was 80 miles away. Starting the car reveled that there was more exhaust noise than before. Car wasn't running the same, which was expected. After driving 8t back and forth on the street it came to a full stop and then died.
There were no noticeable noises that would reveal that the timing gear , or the chain had jumped, pretty quiet.
Several attempts were made to restart they all obviously failed.
Next day it got transported by
A friend 80 miles back to the final resting place.
First thing zi did was to ooen the oil cap and look at the valves for motion. There was none.
I opened the engine up to further diagnose the issue thinking the chain broke or the Vanos bolts broke.
Nothing looks off the market.
The bolt was snapped we can hypothesize all day long on which went first nobody will ever know.
I do have the tools and means
Want to avoid replacing the engine.
The head should not be a major job to remove at this point. Intake and exhaust have to come off and the other timing gear on the exhaust side. Hopefully no hidden things holding it on.
Have to get a service manual of some sort.
Anybody know where?
By the way really appreciate all the advice.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
42 Posts
Discussion Starter · #8 ·
From the color of the guides and oil staining on the mechanical components I’m guessing it’s a ton of miles. Sad but I don’t know if the juice is worth the squeeze on this one
it only has 118k
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
42 Posts
Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Your photos suggest to me that the FIRST EVENT in the failure process was that the Timing Chain came OFF the Intake Cam Sprocket to the REAR of the Sprocket. For the brief instant that the Engine continued to rotate after that (or during Starter Cranking after Engine died), the Timing Chain ground the rear of the Sprocket, wedged between Sprocket and front face of Intake Cam (also ground away), and THAT caused the bolt to shear (IF in fact the bolt broke before someone began disassembly). Someone who studies such things could examine the bolt at the broken end and get a good idea of the forces placed upon the bolt that caused it to break.

Either I'm DENSE, or something is Missing/Wrong with your description of WHAT caused the damage shown in the photos.
HOW did ANYONE "notice the lower part of the engine was spinning but camshaft was NOT"?
What NOISE was associated with this "phenomenon"?
WHAT scraped the rear of the Intake Sprocket and the front face of the Intake Camshaft?
When first seen after Valve Cover removal, was the Timing Chain OFF the rear of the Intake Sprocket?
HOW could ONE of FOUR bolts holding VANOS to Cam break BEFORE the chain came off sprocket?
What do the other THREE Cam Bolts look like?
Was that vehicle subject to the "VANOS BOLT RECALL", and was it performed?
Is there a "Label" on the B-Pillar at driver door? The VANOS Bolts themselves are intact per your photos, but if the timing chain came off Intake Sprocket, WHAT caused that?

You don't say if engine is N52 or N55. AFAIK, BOTH are "Interference" engines, meaning that if a cam quits turning to open and close the valves at proper "timing" in relation to Crankshaft rotation and piston travel up/down, the OPEN Valves WILL Contact the top of the piston in that cylinder. That is NOT a "silent event". :eek:

I would NOT spend time repairing the obvious things shown in your photos UNTIL I examined EACH cylinder with an Endoscope/ Bore Scope, removed the Cam, and tested EACH valve for proper movement in the guide, and seal (using compressed air via the sparkplug hole). In other words check for damaged pistons, valve face damage, or bent valve stems. Then there is also the issue of "filings" from chain contact with cam & sprocket, and whether any of that is going to damage bearings.

Identifying part numbers of any replacement parts needed is easy (dodging the ads is hard ;-) using RealOEM.com -- just enter your Last-7 VIN Characters and Browse Parts (Engine/ 1125 Valve Train).

George
Just wanted to point out that none of the Vanos bolts broke. The only bolt was the main bolt that broke.
 

·
Registered
3/2007 328xi E91
Joined
·
3,389 Posts
The E92N [2012] has an N51 engine...
Have to get a service manual of some sort. Anybody know where?
I didn't realize the broken bolt shown in your photo was the MAIN bolt on the Front-Center of the VANOS unit. Now that I realize that fact, your explanation sounds totally correct: THAT BOLT failed causing chain to pull sprocket down and chain lodging BEHIND sprocket and grinding Rear of sprocket and Face of Intake Cam.

As for References: I would suggest Bentley Manual (link to pdf version below), for General Reference. Keep in mind that went to press in 2009, and therefore would NOT include any changes between 2008 and whenever your vehicle was built in 2011 or 2012. Free Download pdf here:

BEST information for YOUR specific vehicle would be found using ISTA. You can get specific Repair Procedures, photos/diagrams, Torque specs, etc. in the various documents which are installed on your Windows OS HD, WITHOUT any connection to Web or Vehicle. Just screens showing documents. You would need to install BMW Standard Tools and E89 Datens FIRST, and then install ISTA.

Here are LINKS to those downloads, ALL of which are on MEGA Web Server, even though BimmerGeeks links these through its "Downloads" site. In the case of ISTA, that is the same MEGA site BG used to link on its Downloads page, until October, 2020, when BMW apparently asked BG to remove that link (same approximate time that "NewTIS" was "requested" to close. NewTIS.info had provided such ISTA Documents FREE online, until 10/2020.

BMW Standard Tools Download:

E89 Datens Download:

ISTA+ Download:

Please let us know how it goes, or if you need example ISTA Documents, just provide Last-7 Characters of your VIN.
George
 

·
Anti-Hack
Joined
·
5,748 Posts
Gica, how long have you owned the car? IIRC the main bolt is one-time-use. IF someone was in there before, say for anything timing related, and reused the bolt to save pennies, your experience would be the result. It doesn’t help your current situation except to offer some sort of possible warranty claim, or at least an “ill ruin you on social media” type of barter to attempt to recoup some losses, depending on who the seller was.

As stated previously, there’s no short cut to redemption here. Haynes offers a decent manual on the E9x with their info coming from BMW; I have one. Some folks, myself included, prefer the printed page over a virtual one. One thing you don’t want to do is take a few shortcuts, run the engine, and then seize it within 100 miles because of said shortcuts; been there done that, and learned from it.


Sent from my iPhone using Bimmerfest
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
42 Posts
Discussion Starter · #15 ·
We've had the car for 3 years and I have taken care of it while my son is driving it.
Yes I read you the Haynes would include most of the procedures and torques for this job regardless of the year(2012). Once I take off the head I will have to check the valves and then find a decent machine shop to to a valve job. As far as the camshaft and the timing gear mechanism which are both scratched there is no way to reuse right?
I should probably change the VANOS 4 bolts while I am here. And for identifying the parts I can go to the web site you mentioned realoem.com
I am still pissed off at my son, 22, for the fact that he doesn't yet have a ELM327 adapter to keep track of his engine. Probably my fault. I actually installed an android version of his head unit and it could easily read all that. Generation privileged I call him. The car was running really good before this. There was a problem with the tranny adaptations going crazy, so I flushed the system once and change the fluid twice, thought I would have to get the Mechatronic System kit but it sort off mellowed out by itself. What I think really helped was the new battery that I installed which in turn fixed some issues with the car. Low batteries in Benz and Bimmers are not well tolerated by the cars.
I have to take it step by step, I am not new to this type of work, I have rebuilt many cars, boats and jetskis throughout the years, but this BMW is a bit more advanced with its valve system. Nut and bolts only just more of them.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
42 Posts
Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Last steven are J106527
I remover everything around the head and tomorrow it's coming off.
I also found that this car has high quantities of oil sludge
deposited in the head and extremities.
The other issue is the intake camshaft that is looking pretty bad at the bearings and on the camshaft journals. I have a feeling that it seized and that's what broke the Vanos gear bolt. And there is metal in the sludge by the intake.
It has to be what happened.
Car ran hot, the camshaft seized.
The other 2 are fine, exhaust and the center one.
Now I am worries about the crankshaft bearings rods and journals. I don't think they went bad but I should check.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
42 Posts
Discussion Starter · #17 ·
This like other BMWs consumed oil. Why is that? With the motor opened now it's the time to remedy anything. Can I just throw some new rings on the pistons? Or was the oil loss up above?
Will show some pics tomorrow, of the intake shaft damage and bearings, also will look i to the cylinder walls for any marks.
I want to get it to where it will be better than before. And it was running pretty damn good no codes.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
42 Posts
Discussion Starter · #18 ·
I didn't realize the broken bolt shown in your photo was the MAIN bolt on the Front-Center of the VANOS unit. Now that I realize that fact, your explanation sounds totally correct: THAT BOLT failed causing chain to pull sprocket down and chain lodging BEHIND sprocket and grinding Rear of sprocket and Face of Intake Cam.

As for References: I would suggest Bentley Manual (link to pdf version below), for General Reference. Keep in mind that went to press in 2009, and therefore would NOT include any changes between 2008 and whenever your vehicle was built in 2011 or 2012. Free Download pdf here:

BEST information for YOUR specific vehicle would be found using ISTA. You can get specific Repair Procedures, photos/diagrams, Torque specs, etc. in the various documents which are installed on your Windows OS HD, WITHOUT any connection to Web or Vehicle. Just screens showing documents. You would need to install BMW Standard Tools and E89 Datens FIRST, and then install ISTA.

Here are LINKS to those downloads, ALL of which are on MEGA Web Server, even though BimmerGeeks links these through its "Downloads" site. In the case of ISTA, that is the same MEGA site BG used to link on its Downloads page, until October, 2020, when BMW apparently asked BG to remove that link (same approximate time that "NewTIS" was "requested" to close. NewTIS.info had provided such ISTA Documents FREE online, until 10/2020.

BMW Standard Tools Download:

E89 Datens Download:

ISTA+ Download:

Please let us know how it goes, or if you need example ISTA Documents, just provide Last-7 Characters of your VIN.
George
Are these files available for free download or do I have to buy the monthly subscription?
 

·
Registered
3/2007 328xi E91
Joined
·
3,389 Posts
Are these files available for free download or do I have to buy the monthly subscription?
When I downloaded all three files 1.5+ year ago, everything was free, except that I had to wait/sleep for ~ 4 hours in middle of ISTA download until download resumed on its own. I just began the download BEFORE going to sleep, and next morning the download had completed automatically (using Desktop).

I have inquired several times HOW/IF the MEGA download procedure has changed in past year+, and no one has posted about current procedure. Last I looked, you did NOT have to opt for a RECURRING "Trump Campaign Contribution Style" monthly charge, either knowingly or "UNknowingly"/ Fraudulently. 💩 :giggle:

ANYONE with experience with Downloads of 5 GB to 15 GB from MEGA (NOT MAGA ;-) please advise.
George
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
42 Posts
Discussion Starter · #20 ·
When I downloaded all three files 1.5+ year ago, everything was free, except that I had to wait/sleep for ~ 4 hours in middle of ISTA download until download resumed on its own. I just began the download BEFORE going to sleep, and next morning the download had completed automatically (using Desktop).

I have inquired several times HOW/IF the MEGA download procedure has changed in past year+, and no one has posted about current procedure. Last I looked, you did NOT have to opt for a RECURRING "Trump Campaign Contribution Style" monthly charge, either knowingly or "UNknowingly"/ Fraudulently. 💩 :giggle:

ANYONE with experience with Downloads of 5 GB to 15 GB from MEGA (NOT MAGA ;-) please advise.
George
Ok downloads go for awhile and then stop when you pass your quota but with VPN you change location and it continues.
 
1 - 20 of 52 Posts
Top