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Discussion Starter #1
Hi there! Not sure if this is the right spot for this, but my lease for my 430i convertible is ending at the end of May.

i am looking to get into a 2020 330i or *possibly* a 2021 330e (but knowing this might be delayed). Does anyone have residuals, April MF, current incentives and what I should be aiming towards re: $$ above invoice?

I was searching around and haven't seen much..

Thanks!
 

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Aim for 12.5% off MRSP.

MF is .00118

April 2020 Lease Program:

330i (2020MY)
15k miles / 57% residual
12k miles / 59% residual
10k miles / 60% residual

$750 lease credit
$2500 finance credit
$2000 loyalty credit

M340i (2020MY)
15k miles / 57% residual
12k miles / 59% residual
10k miles / 60% residual

$1000 lease credit
$2500 finance credit
$2000 loyalty credit

330e / 330xe (2021MY)
15k miles / 57% residual
12k miles / 59% residual
10k miles / 60% residual

$2000 loyalty credit
 

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15,177 Posts
Aim for 12.5% off MRSP.

MF is .00118

April 2020 Lease Program:

330i (2020MY)
15k miles / 57% residual
12k miles / 59% residual
10k miles / 60% residual

$750 lease credit
$2500 finance credit
$2000 loyalty credit

M340i (2020MY)
15k miles / 57% residual
12k miles / 59% residual
10k miles / 60% residual

$1000 lease credit
$2500 finance credit
$2000 loyalty credit

330e / 330xe (2021MY)
15k miles / 57% residual
12k miles / 59% residual
10k miles / 60% residual

$2000 loyalty credit
If you are aiming for 12% you are aiming to put your friendly neighborhood BMW dealer out of business. Period.

Just because of the COVID-19 virus doesn't mean dealers should lose money to move product.

I guess consumers don't care whether or not the dealer will still be open when it comes time for service?

How much margin do you really believe exists?

How much margin do you allow for other products you consume, or do you hope that everyone you buy commodities from loses money for the privilege of serving you?

:dunno:

OP asked how much over invoice? There is about 6% between MSRP ("sticker") and invoice.


.
 

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If you are aiming for 12% you are aiming to put your friendly neighborhood dealer out of business. Period.
12.5% is nothing, as this lease broker is advertising up to 20% off.

EDIT:

18% off a M8 comp convertible, I'm tempted to order one if if I'm unable to secure a F83 build slot from my Group A center.
 

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I don’t know how much profit there is on a new car but I got a quote for a new ordered M340i before coronavirus started and a Maryland dealer offered 11% off without any back and forth. :dunno:
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Thanks everyone for weighing in! The % off MSRP is all-in (including all the incentives)? Can you stack the loyalty/finance/lease credits?

Also, it's been awhile, but is the 'invoice' number still the 92% of list price?
 

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If you are aiming for 12% you are aiming to put your friendly neighborhood BMW dealer out of business. Period.

Just because of the COVID-19 virus doesn't mean dealers should lose money to move product.

I guess consumers don't care whether or not the dealer will still be open when it comes time for service?

How much margin do you really believe exists?

How much margin do you allow for other products you consume, or do you hope that everyone you buy commodities from loses money for the privilege of serving you?

:dunno:

OP asked how much over invoice? There is about 6% between MSRP ("sticker") and invoice.


.
How much margin? Fair question. What "margin" are we discussing?

The real crime here is that most pay plans still calculate the bulk of the CA's compensation on holding the gross between invoice and MSRP. So every dollar ground off of MSRP hits the CA's wallet hard, in most instances.

Meanwhile, hidden behind the curtain.... Inquiring minds need to ask, why would dealers sell 8% ~ 20% below MSRP? Some of us have come to suspect that we really have no idea what true dealer "cost" is on these beautiful, rapidly-depreciating machines.

If one reads the various car buying advice sites, it is consistently maintained that BMW doesn't have "holdback." So AVP is about "added value" and thus it's not "holdback"????

And the various stair-steps and targeted factory-to-dealer dollars are all fairy dust that only exists in the minds of greedy consumers who don't believe dealers are entitled to a profit??

These are challenging times for sure. Some of us have a lot of empathy for those caught in the middle whose livelihoods are being played with by policy-makers who have no worries about living without a paycheck.

But some of us have to reach down pretty deep to find much sympathy for the wizards of Oz who hide all that stuff behind the curtains and then ask us to believe there's nothing to see there.

Count me as empathetic, but skeptical. I still try to start at "invoice" and go down from there, if I can, giving the dealer an opportunity to sell me a car or tell me to go pound sand. Willing buyer/willing seller, neither compelled to act, with the market determining price. Seems fair to me.

Not so fair to the people trying to make a living between invoice and gross.
 

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How much margin? Fair question. What "margin" are we discussing?

The real crime here is that most pay plans still calculate the bulk of the CA's compensation on holding the gross between invoice and MSRP. So every dollar ground off of MSRP hits the CA's wallet hard, in most instances.

Meanwhile, hidden behind the curtain.... Inquiring minds need to ask, why would dealers sell 8% ~ 20% below MSRP? Some of us have come to suspect that we really have no idea what true dealer "cost" is on these beautiful, rapidly-depreciating machines.

If one reads the various car buying advice sites, it is consistently maintained that BMW doesn't have "holdback." So AVP is about "added value" and thus it's not "holdback"????

And the various stair-steps and targeted factory-to-dealer dollars are all fairy dust that only exists in the minds of greedy consumers who don't believe dealers are entitled to a profit??

These are challenging times for sure. Some of us have a lot of empathy for those caught in the middle whose livelihoods are being played with by policy-makers who have no worries about living without a paycheck.

But some of us have to reach down pretty deep to find much sympathy for the wizards of Oz who hide all that stuff behind the curtains and then ask us to believe there's nothing to see there.

Count me as empathetic, but skeptical. I still try to start at "invoice" and go down from there, if I can, giving the dealer an opportunity to sell me a car or tell me to go pound sand. Willing buyer/willing seller, neither compelled to act, with the market determining price. Seems fair to me.

Not so fair to the people trying to make a living between invoice and gross.
I have heavily researched '20 X3 M40i and M340i lease deals and have seen 9-12% off MSRP on X3 and 10-13% off M340i BEFORE incentives. Some of these have been leased and some off the lot. Also, the majority of these deals occurred in Feb/Mar before things 'shut down'. If the dealer isn't making any money on these deals, then why are they happening? Also, it shouldn't be my responsibility to compensate the CA - or even understand how compensation works.
 

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... Also, it shouldn't be my responsibility to compensate the CA - or even understand how compensation works.
Well, knowing how asking for price reduction impacts your salesperson's pay is, I think valuable insight. Some sensitivity to the "caught in the middle" plight of the CA might inform negotiations.

While it is true that how people at a dealership get paid is not the customer's responsibility, in addition to the knowledge is power factor, we all want an excellent customer service experience, and an excellent delivery, and all of the paperwork done correctly, and all of our questions answered, and, with ordered cars, we want to know delivery progress, and, a really good CA can make things happen that customers are sometimes told can't happen.

Just sayin', if the CA knows he/she is getting a mini commission because the deal is back of invoice, then the demanding customer is asking that CA, perhaps, to do a lot for a little.

My wife has been known to slip a helpful salesperson an Amex gift card when the deal has been to the nub but our needs have been met.
 

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Some places have $899 doc fee. Other places $150. Something to consider when calculating a deal.

That’s one way to get a “bigger” discount off MSRP.


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Doc fees are gererally controlled by state legislation. I.E. dealer lobbieists have legislature enact law to allow dealers to charge more than Federal mandated Mulroney ( new cars)via charging a Documentation fee...theory is it cost hundreds to file for plates ( not plates themselves) file other government documents , remit excise taxes, all sorts of b.s. State enacts law that dealers can charge Doc fees. Usually do not designate a number, but EVERY customer must pay it to be legal & it must be the same for every customer of every new car at that dealership.Way around it, at end of back and forth, refuse to either pay it or increase trade allowance or increase discount from MSRP.
 

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My point is that some states have allowances for high doc fees. But deals don’t mention that sometimes.

Also some locales are in high rent areas. Another factor that increases costs.

Folks who just target X% off since they saw it off the internet without considering other variables tend to scratch their heads wondering why someone else got a certain deal and their dealer didn’t do a similar one.


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12.5% is nothing, as this lease broker is advertising up to 20% off.

EDIT:

18% off a M8 comp convertible, I'm tempted to order one if if I'm unable to secure a F83 build slot from my Group A center.


Funny you are leaning toward an M8 convertible. I’m leaning toward an M8 competition grand coupe. Something different than my prior F80/82 and it looks great.


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If you are aiming for 12% you are aiming to put your friendly neighborhood BMW dealer out of business. Period.

Just because of the COVID-19 virus doesn't mean dealers should lose money to move product.

I guess consumers don't care whether or not the dealer will still be open when it comes time for service?

How much margin do you really believe exists?

How much margin do you allow for other products you consume, or do you hope that everyone you buy commodities from loses money for the privilege of serving you?

:dunno:

OP asked how much over invoice? There is about 6% between MSRP ("sticker") and invoice.


.


Jon. You know I like you and I’m part of the old-school fest membership. I browsed the fest for years before I became a member and I think I have been a member going on 14 years now. Having said that, I do need to tell you this. Some dealers, including the one that my sales manager friend runs, are doing 4-14% off MSRP before incentives and the discount varies based on many factors including the specific car being quoted. On the higher percentage discounts we are talking strictly in-stock units and no dealer trades or custom orders. What the dealers are doing when they offer these high percentage discounts, is taking a loss on some units in hopes of hitting their volume bonus for that month and thereby making up the loss and also making a profit in the long run. I understand that your store may not be doing this, but some are doing it and that is just reality. This was happening before COVID-19 and it will continue to happen in some shape or form going forward. The reason I mention this is because there is validity to the posters who are saying 10% or 12% off before incentives is the goal before incentives. That is an achievable goal at some dealers and it is unachievable at other dealers. Usually it requires the right combination of timing, the customer wanting the right unit and how much profit the dealer has already banked that month before the customer makes an inquiry requesting that discount over 7%. Lastly, even though the front end profit is 6-7%, we all know that some dealers are selling into back end profit on some units (including the AVP profit).


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If you are aiming for 12% you are aiming to put your friendly neighborhood BMW dealer out of business. Period.

Just because of the COVID-19 virus doesn't mean dealers should lose money to move product.

I guess consumers don't care whether or not the dealer will still be open when it comes time for service?

How much margin do you really believe exists?

How much margin do you allow for other products you consume, or do you hope that everyone you buy commodities from loses money for the privilege of serving you?

:dunno:

OP asked how much over invoice? There is about 6% between MSRP ("sticker") and invoice.


.
It is unclear amidst COVID-19 how much margin exists, and how BMWNA should help(bail out?) dealers in this crazy time.

The reality though is that when oil producers paid $37 for someone to take their barrels(produced at $10-15/barrel?), it says a lot how crazy this is.

The dynamic prices are always agreed numbers between buyers and sellers, so if 12.5% off MSRP(which is just a reference) before incentives is the prevailing price, any price above that will be a bad deal unfortunately.
 

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Funny you are leaning toward an M8 convertible. I’m leaning toward an M8 competition grand coupe. Something different than my prior F80/82 and it looks great.
I feel that I can secure a F83 production slot, despite the factory closure creating doubt in my mind. But, I have a back-up plan in a M8 vert if lease brokers are offering 18% off MRSP. As my current F83 had a SCH, doubt I would extend the lease for 12 months waiting for the G83, as I'm sure that BMWFS would allow me to extend for 12 months. I'm not going to bug my SM, as he'll contact me when the time is ready to update me, as he has my build specs already. I'd rather not go with the M8 vert, as I'll have the same engine in my future X5M comp. But, as a BMW serial leaser, need to have a back up plan.
 

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12.5% is nothing, as this lease broker is advertising up to 20% off.

EDIT:

18% off a M8 comp convertible, I'm tempted to order one if if I'm unable to secure a F83 build slot from my Group A center.

There is no surprise in noting that on the most expensive and slow-moving BMW models there is sales support (not "consumer incentives") to help move product. Eg. 8 Series. This thread is about 4 Series, and therefore pointing out 18% on flagship models is irrelevant...

This is all I am going to say about this, and then I am going to go away except to share occasional tidbits since apparently there seems to be so little love or appreciation for automotive professionals here in 2020. Back in 2001 I was the ONLY dealer rep on The 'Fest (by design of course, and I was General Sales Manager) who answered questions and helped literally thousands of BMW buyers across the USA by providing not only my unique insights but closely-held proprietary information not available anywhere else. In 2003 I knew I was going to be leaving the car business (I went back to grad school and finished my MA and worked as a psychotherapist 2004-2011) so we opened up sponsorship to all dealers and soon many jumped on board. When I returned in 2011, and over the next few years we added many more, at one point we had over 20 dealers and also CAs who supported the community. Back then it made sense, there was still trace evidence of profit to be made.

Over the past it has decayed to the point where now people think they deserve 12% off. Now notice how many CAs are posting and answering threads.

:dunno:

One. Maybe two (on a good day)? Why is that do you suppose? Well, I'll tell you why, it's because 12% is ridiculous, and to get that you are demanding somebody LOSE MONEY REAL MONEY to sell you a car! A "message board hero you will be", go ahread brag online about how you bested a BMW dealer. "I got 12% off!" Woooohooooo. :banana: :fruit: :supdude: :sabrina: :roundel:

Now we have COVID-19 and there are actual BMW buyers who are attempting to leverage crisis and tragedy to their own personal benefit. There are still a few reasonable people lurking, those who actually understand business and appreciate exemplary service. I hope they can find me.

Pssst. There is no "back-end profit". Back-end profit is commission earned vis-a-vis finance reserve or extended service contracts, ...etc. There is "AVP", and that was never intended as profit. I have news for you, not all dealers earn it. And, it is tied to performance benchmarks and satisfaction scores. It keeps the lights on. And it's not 6%, so at 12% off, somebody is eating poop, and they still have to pay a salesman! Please show me ANY other business where you buy a retail consumer product for $1k let alone $50k or $100k, and the buyer reasonably expects the seller to pay them to buy their product. Good luck with that. At 12% off, a dealer is PAYING YOU to buy their product.

And as for "COVID-19" money, the amount that was posted in March was halved in April.
I wish the posters in this thread who think BMW dealers should lose money on a deal could try my job for a day. I really do.
 

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Well, I'll tell you why, it's because 12% is ridiculous, and to get that you are demanding somebody LOSE MONEY REAL MONEY to sell you a car! A "message board hero you will be", go ahread brag online about how you bested a BMW dealer.
As deep pocket oil producers take $47-$52 loss per barrel for anyone to take delivery, it says a lot what the current environment is.

Did your posts suggest BMWNA may have new(crazy?) programs coming out in next few months(next month is tomorrow!). Maybe BMWNA will come to the rescue!

Talking about crazy, while universities are refunding room and board pro-rated to students, no university has yet refunded tuition, and some students and parents are now suing for tuition refunds!
 

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I've had friends over the years who turn car buying into a battle, and they love every minute of it.

One was buying a Dodge Onmi/Plymouth Horizon back in the 1980's. He's show up on the last day of the month, offer $50 over invoice, and walk away. After about six months, a dealership took it just to keep him from coming back.

Another friend turns car buying into a vacation. Dealers of the same brand are about 50 miles apart here in the Floriduh Outback. So, there's relatively light competition. This friend flies to a large city, gets a hotel and rental car, and starts doing a round robin with dealers, taking one dealer's offer to the next one. When the offers stop getting lower, somebody sells a car. The trip probably costs more than he saves on the cars. But, he's having fun jerking salesmen and sales managers around. His "vacation" was ruined when the first dealership accepted his ridiculous offer on a Mercedes-Benz Sprinter. I ran into him yesterday, first time in years. With all the chaos, he pounced on a Nissan NV3500 to replace the Sprinter.

I usually split the difference between MSRP and "invoice." Service during and after the sales is more important to me than price. If my first offer isn't accepted, there's something wrong at the dealership and I'm usually done with them.

One of the things I do to make car buying easier to do my homework ahead of time. I try to do test drives at manufacturer's events, or with service loaners and rental cars. We didn't take a test drive of a BMW at a dealership with dealership people until we bought our fourth BMW. I usually have the car I want spec'ed out before I go into the dealership. My goal is for the salesman to spend less than 30 minutes with me before handing me off to the "paperwork guy/gal." "Earnings/hour" is a good metric for the salesman to assess our relationship.

A lot of those crazy deals people brag about on the Interwebs are for previous model year left overs. There was a guy here who consistently came up with amazing lease deals. But, he'd spend lot of time tracking down these lot bunnies. He referred to his car leasing evolutions as "the hunt."

My mother was helping a friend buy a Buick years ago. She also practiced the "don't be greedy" philosophy. But, the Buick dealership offered pretty much "invoice" right off the bat, and Mom had done her homework (with a paperback Edmond's book... before most people had computers or Interweb access). Mom actually called me up to ask what was going on. It turned out the dealership was about to be sold, and the owners were more interested in getting their sales volume numbers up than actually making any profit on sales.
 

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How much margin? Fair question. What "margin" are we discussing?

The real crime here is that most pay plans still calculate the bulk of the CA's compensation on holding the gross between invoice and MSRP. So every dollar ground off of MSRP hits the CA's wallet hard, in most instances.

Meanwhile, hidden behind the curtain.... Inquiring minds need to ask, why would dealers sell 8% ~ 20% below MSRP? Some of us have come to suspect that we really have no idea what true dealer "cost" is on these beautiful, rapidly-depreciating machines.

If one reads the various car buying advice sites, it is consistently maintained that BMW doesn't have "holdback." So AVP is about "added value" and thus it's not "holdback"????

And the various stair-steps and targeted factory-to-dealer dollars are all fairy dust that only exists in the minds of greedy consumers who don't believe dealers are entitled to a profit??

These are challenging times for sure. Some of us have a lot of empathy for those caught in the middle whose livelihoods are being played with by policy-makers who have no worries about living without a paycheck.

But some of us have to reach down pretty deep to find much sympathy for the wizards of Oz who hide all that stuff behind the curtains and then ask us to believe there's nothing to see there.

Count me as empathetic, but skeptical. I still try to start at "invoice" and go down from there, if I can, giving the dealer an opportunity to sell me a car or tell me to go pound sand. Willing buyer/willing seller, neither compelled to act, with the market determining price. Seems fair to me.

Not so fair to the people trying to make a living between invoice and gross.
Jon, and others, I stand by my remarks as quoted above.

I would also add that the "race to the bottom" was not, in fact, started by savvy buyers who sought aggressive car deals.

Consumers did not invent stair-step dealer incentive programs which pitted high-volume operators against smaller low volume, family-owned and operated stores.

Consumers did not collapse MSRP/Invoice margins over the decades to the point where now, they are a cruel joke.

Consumers did not invent pay plans that take the biggest bite out of the line salesperson's cut when there is discounting.

Consumers did not invent highly-inflated third-party add-on "protection products" nor did consumers invent the now illegal, but still used by some dealers, practice of adding a leg to a payment quote so, once in the box, a fatigued customer would be subjected to manipulations of numbers by a smiling "business manager," who was there to "make sure all the paperwork was done properly."

Are customers demanding, duplicitous, evasive, and often unprepared to enter into a transparent, honest business transaction with a car dealer? Often, yes.

Are most customers trying to buy more car than they can afford? The data says yes.

Did many loyal BMW customers try in the past to purchase their cars at lease end at fair market value only to be told that the residual price in the contract was the best that could be offered? And did BMWFS institute penalties if dealers paid dynamic price for a lease return and then sold it back to the original customer, only to suddenly abandon that practice and undercut dealers by offering discounts from residual directly to returning leasees? Did consumers invent any of this?

Is it a challenge to sell an expensive product that drops substantially in value the moment it is driven off the dealers lot? I'm sure it is.

Are dealers hard up against it right now? Yes.

A crisis always reveals the cracks.

But, Jon, please do not personalize this. The industry set this in motion years ago, and the industry trained us to suspect every aspect of the car buying process and to pit one dealer against the next to grind down to find the best possible price.

True Car, Edmunds, and all the other "advice" sites that do not fully or transparently disclose their financial relationships with dealers, or the collusion that exists to suppress information while touting transparency, do not help make things better for any of us.

Willing buyer/willing seller, neither compelled to act.
I will always defend a dealer's right not to sell me a car for less than they want to. Just as I defend my right to choose not to pay more than I want to.

If I choose not to pay what the dealer wants, I don't get the car. But when I walk away from a transaction, having been transparent and prepared to do a deal, the dealer having exercised his/her right to not agree to my price demands, and then the next day I get a text telling me "our numbers have changed, please call," and, suddenly, the impossible becomes possible if I can come in today and sign, well... from a Pavlovian perspective, who is conditioning whom???
 
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