330Ci vs CLS in July Car & Driver

So it beat a overweight FWD Honda built on an econobox platform.... whoopdeedoo...

This is like saying a steak is better at Morton's than at Sizzler. Why bother comparing them? And any customer who compares them isn't looking for a performance car or they wouldn't be looking at FWD. And any customer who doesn't appreciate the difference deserves the Honda.

Topaz330xi said:

<img src=http://www.acurawoodbine.com/images/model_CLS.jpg>

yuck:thumbdwn:

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Well, you did pick the ugliest possible color. Sundance Gold is it? Whatever it is, it's discontinued - and for good reason heh. The CL does look decent in white, silver, or black IMHO.

I'm glad I didn't buy one though, it may be a 'good value' but it has as much personality as Al Gore.

--SONET

Topaz330xi said:

<img src=http://www.acurawoodbine.com/images/model_CLS.jpg>

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I wasn't being sarcastic, it just didn't register with me for some reason. That color is certainly an attention grabber. There's one that "lives" in my neighborhood and you can't miss it.

TD said:

So it beat a overweight FWD Honda built on an econobox platform.... whoopdeedoo...

This is like saying a steak is better at Morton's than at Sizzler. Why bother comparing them? And any customer who compares them isn't looking for a performance car or they wouldn't be looking at FWD. And any customer who doesn't appreciate the difference deserves the Honda.

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Ok, you've been beating on the accord platform for a few days here, so I've got to at least attempt to defend it.

There's nothing inherently wrong with the Accord chassis. I certainly wouldn't categorize it as "econobox" and, blasphemy, in some ways it's more sophisticated than our precious bimmers.

The Accord platform has a sophisticated, full FIVE link rear suspension, just like the BMW's. It also has a double wishbone front suspension which allows for much more (theoretically) wheel control over the course of the suspension's travel. From the factory, they are tuned soft,with LOTS of understeer, however. Our BMW's have an inherently good handling design in the Mac strut, but there's not nearly the amount of adjustment available (i.e., to change camber, you do it at the top of the strut housing by sliding the whole assembly laterally. Talk about "econobox-in-origin", that's the Mac Strut for ya) it's to BMW's credit they make it work as well as it does.

Accords are quite good race cars across the pond and Acura Integras,here in the states, were routinely kicking our overweight 3 series butts in the Speedvision Touring class. AND do I have to mention the original Mini's dominance in rally AND road racing in the 60's?

FWD is just different. I don't like it either, but you should drive one of the Barber series Dodge Neons sometime. You can do some neat things with FWD including kicking out the rear by lifting off the throttle and setting up a "rotation" in turns that can be quite intoxicating not to mention quick. It's just different and it's valid.

Anyway, I love my bimmer,I prefer rwd, but I've owned four Accords and swear by 'em.

Ed

robg said:

Totally agree on about the accord bashing. Its unwarranted. The accord in many ways is more sophistcated and more reliable than our cars.

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No, it's warranted. The Accord is a fine driving appliance, and I'll give it props for being mildly more entertaining to drive than the should-only-be-available-in-beige Toyota Camry. It is an excellent generic four door sedan with good build quality and some sophisticated engineering.

But a performance car it isn't. As BMW shows so eloquently, the underlying geometry of the suspension has little to do with how well it works. The TL/CL is a nice enough car, but in the end it's just a tarted up family sedan that doesn't really attempt to be anything else. In contrast with the much more plausible IS300 and GS350, Acura spent little or no money or time on developing the TL/CL into a proper enthusiast-oriented machine.

Some people could care less. The tactile difference between a dedicated performance sedan and a fancy family car is either imperceptible or meaningless to these folks. Nothing wrong with that. IMHO, if one is considering the TL/CL and the 330, and does not immediately and with no regret whatsover scratch the TL/CL from their list after driving both, they should buy the TL/CL. It will, in the end, make them happier by providing a better value, due to its family sedan underpinnings.

On the other hand, if you are like me (and, I think, most of the people on this board), you will know within the first 50 feet behind the wheel of the 330 that you will never, ever be happy with the compromises inherent in the CL/TL. I don't care how much cheaper it is; it's not a good value if it does not make you happy.

EdCT said:

Ok, you've been beating on the accord platform for a few days here, so I've got to at least attempt to defend it.

There's nothing inherently wrong with the Accord chassis. I certainly wouldn't categorize it as "econobox" and, blasphemy, in some ways it's more sophisticated than our precious bimmers.

The Accord platform has a sophisticated, full FIVE link rear suspension, just like the BMW's. It also has a double wishbone front suspension which allows for much more (theoretically) wheel control over the course of the suspension's travel. From the factory, they are tuned soft,with LOTS of understeer, however. Our BMW's have an inherently good handling design in the Mac strut, but there's not nearly the amount of adjustment available (i.e., to change camber, you do it at the top of the strut housing by sliding the whole assembly laterally. Talk about "econobox-in-origin", that's the Mac Strut for ya) it's to BMW's credit they make it work as well as it does.

Accords are quite good race cars across the pond and Acura Integras,here in the states, were routinely kicking our overweight 3 series butts in the Speedvision Touring class. AND do I have to mention the original Mini's dominance in rally AND road racing in the 60's?

FWD is just different. I don't like it either, but you should drive one of the Barber series Dodge Neons sometime. You can do some neat things with FWD including kicking out the rear by lifting off the throttle and setting up a "rotation" in turns that can be quite intoxicating not to mention quick. It's just different and it's valid.

Anyway, I love my bimmer,I prefer rwd, but I've owned four Accords and swear by 'em.

Ed

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Pretty well said, Ed. I've owned Accords for the previous 6 years, until I discovered the 330i. The TL Type S was the only other car I considered before buying my first BMW. The Accord is a fine car, and BMW can't touch it for the price. If They made a $20K car, it would probably resemble something you'd expect to roll off a GM or Ford assembly line.
The Accord is a solid, seemingly flawless package (quality, refinement, and ergonomicly speaking). Even though I don't own one anymore, I'll still defend the platform. And who cares if it's FWD. People don't buy 'em to go racing.

JST said:

No, it's warranted. The Accord is a fine driving appliance, and I'll give it props for being mildly more entertaining to drive than the should-only-be-available-in-beige Toyota Camry. It is an excellent generic four door sedan with good build quality and some sophisticated engineering.

But a performance car it isn't. As BMW shows so eloquently, the underlying geometry of the suspension has little to do with how well it works. The TL/CL is a nice enough car, but in the end it's just a tarted up family sedan that doesn't really attempt to be anything else. In contrast with the much more plausible IS300 and GS350, Acura spent little or no money or time on developing the TL/CL into a proper enthusiast-oriented machine.

Some people could care less. The tactile difference between a dedicated performance sedan and a fancy family car is either imperceptible or meaningless to these folks. Nothing wrong with that. IMHO, if one is considering the TL/CL and the 330, and does not immediately and with no regret whatsover scratch the TL/CL from their list after driving both, they should buy the TL/CL. It will, in the end, make them happier by providing a better value, due to its family sedan underpinnings.

On the other hand, if you are like me (and, I think, most of the people on this board), you will know within the first 50 feet behind the wheel of the 330 that you will never, ever be happy with the compromises inherent in the CL/TL. I don't care how much cheaper it is; it's not a good value if it does not make you happy.

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Another good post, that makes some great points. The Type S is a very capable car, but I could never live with some of the features that seemed to be designed by someone that probably took a job at Honda after being fired over at Chevrolet. But, exactly what you'd expect when you're dealing with a car that is meant to meet a certain price point.

And the 50 feet thing, I think you're underestimating. It only took about 25 feet for me to realize what I'd been missing all this time. It's a good thing that my salesperson didn't come with for the test drive, because I would've been writing out a downpayment check before we even left the parking lot!

JST said:

No, it's warranted. The Accord is a fine driving appliance, and I'll give it props for being mildly more entertaining to drive than the should-only-be-available-in-beige Toyota Camry. It is an excellent generic four door sedan with good build quality and some sophisticated engineering.

But a performance car it isn't.

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JST,

Yes I'm with you, after all, it's the 323i I ended up getting.

But it's the platform I'm defending, not necessarily the final fairly generic result
(although Accords of yore were much sportier and driver-oriented than today's models).

Honda's a serious engineering company, with engines and suspensions that, up until Ferrari took over, dominated F1.

Ed

Oh, no question. If Honda put their mind to it, they could build a devastating RWD sport sedan, and I'd be one of the first in line for a test drive. Imagine a platform based on the S2K, with a 6 speed manual box and the 3.2L 260 hp V6 from the Type S.

And the Accord platform is very well designed, and serves it's purpose (i.e., family sedan) better than most of its competitors.

But the Accord just doesn't cut it as a BMW competitor, even in TL/CL guise. They really aren't in the same league (nor are they intended to be).

EdCT said:

JST,

Yes I'm with you, after all, it's the 323i I ended up getting.

But it's the platform I'm defending, not necessarily the final fairly generic result
(although Accords of yore were much sportier and driver-oriented than today's models).

Honda's a serious engineering company, with engines and suspensions that, up until Ferrari took over, dominated F1.

Ed

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I was seriously considering purchasing a TL Type-S before taking the BMW out on a test drive. I actually made up my mind to buy the BMW before I even took it out for the test drive. What was the main reason . . . I hung out on the TL Type-S board for a few months and the same post kept coming up . . .

Transmission Failures. :yikes:

Over and over again this would come up. There were a few guys over there that were on their 3rd transmission in less than 10K miles!!! That is just unheard of. The problem was so widespread that someone started to track/link the transmission failures to VIN #'s and production dates. The other thing that the owners on this board couldn't understand is why Acura was not recalling cars or accepting that their was a problem.

Owners were having to wait to get new transmissions because the new transmissions were on a one month National Back Order !! How could a auto company say there's no problems with their transmissions if there was a back order for over a month? Come on!! :tsk: Obviously enough transmissions were failing that Acura couldn't keep up with the demand for new ones.

This is something I haven't heard spoken of in any magazines. I guess if it was finally addressed nationally, Acura would have to admit there was a problem and do a recall.

If anyone is interested in what is going on at the Acura board, check out this thread .TL-S Tranny Problem, VIN Number Check UPDATED

This was what made my decision to buy BMW that much easier. The test drive was the icing on the cake. .

Ackster said:

I was seriously considering purchasing a TL Type-S before taking the BMW out on a test drive. I actually made up my mind to buy the BMW before I even took it out for the test drive. What was the main reason . . . I hung out on the TL Type-S board for a few months and the same post kept coming up . . .

Transmission Failures. :yikes:

Over and over again this would come up. There were a few guys over there that were on their 3rd transmission in less than 10K miles!!! That is just unheard of. The problem was so widespread that someone started to track/link the transmission failures to VIN #'s and production dates. The other thing that the owners on this board couldn't understand is why Acura was not recalling cars or accepting that their was a problem.

Owners were having to wait to get new transmissions because the new transmissions were on a one month National Back Order !! How could a auto company say there's no problems with their transmissions if there was a back order for over a month? Come on!! :tsk: Obviously enough transmissions were failing that Acura couldn't keep up with the demand for new ones.

This is something I haven't heard spoken of in any magazines. I guess if it was finally addressed nationally, Acura would have to admit there was a problem and do a recall.

If anyone is interested in what is going on at the Acura board, check out this thread .TL-S Tranny Problem, VIN Number Check UPDATED

This was what made my decision to buy BMW that much easier. The test drive was the icing on the cake. .

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Wow, now that's really something.

It's worth noting our 1995 Accord EX wagon is not the king of reliability and quality our earlier Accords were either.

Too bad.

OTOH, my SA-built 323i has been a model of quality and reliability after almost 15k. I can't find a single thing to complain about. It's simply flawless, exhibiting NONE of the symptoms those with German-built models repeatedly complain about, i.e. squeaks, rattle, electrical maladies and so on.

Ed

ff-

Interestingly, BMW does make 3 series available for the rest of the world that are around 20k or less- the 316i, 318i, and ti models all fall within this range. I wonder what would happen if those models were sold in the US- do you think they'd steal lots of sales from the Japanese family sedans? Granted-- they'd have slightly less power and features for the price.

JST-

All good points on the 3 series platform. I personally would not choose any FWD based car- as good as the Accord is. I just thought that everyone was getting a little too negative on the Accord platform- it is actually quite good. I believe Honda does have plans to create a sports sedan on the S2k platform. I'm sure that this will be something to look forward to-- Honda certainly is a fine engineering company. I'm happy that the "3 series" class of cars keeps gettting better and better for the same price. Within a few years, I expect most of the cars in this segment to be RWD, and similar or better performance to a 330 for less money.