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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
What is the lease acqusition fee of 36 month BMW FS lease on a 5 Series?
 

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What is the lease acqusition fee of 36 month BMW FS lease on a 5 Series?
I believe the BMWFS acqusition fee is the same on all BMW's, $625.00. Keep in mind the dealer is allowed to bump the fee up a maximum of $200 ($825.00).
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
I got dinged there for $200 extra. One just assumes that a fee is fixed like a government fee. BMW FS just lets the dealers just stick it up the a$$ of loyal BMW Enthusiasts. There is more screwing of BMW Enthusiasts in leasing than anyplace else. BMW knows about it gives the dealers a wink wink. The problem with leasing a BMW is that dealers lie, inflate fees, make math errors routinely in their favor, and are duplicitous. BMW FS just turns the other way.
 

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I got dinged there for $200 extra. One just assumes that a fee is fixed like a government fee. BMW FS just lets the dealers just stick it up the a$$ of loyal BMW Enthusiasts. There is more screwing of BMW Enthusiasts in leasing than anyplace else. BMW knows about it gives the dealers a wink wink. The problem with leasing a BMW is that dealers lie, inflate fees, make math errors routinely in their favor, and are duplicitous. BMW FS just turns the other way.
A little worked up over $200 :rofl:

How exactly were you lied to? Acquistion fee is the ONE fee that is marked up aside from the MF. That's the cost of doing business. :thumbup:
 

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A little worked up over $200 :rofl:

How exactly were you lied to? Acquistion fee is the ONE fee that is marked up aside from the MF. That's the cost of doing business. :thumbup:
And get this - they have the hide to mark their cars up by $1000! Its best to treat the deal as a whole figure over invoice when evaluating a deal.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 · (Edited)
A little worked up over $200 :rofl:

How exactly were you lied to? Acquistion fee is the ONE fee that is marked up aside from the MF. That's the cost of doing business. :thumbup:
Your post reflects a typical dealer attitude toward hidden profit. However this is shortsighted and much more expensive to the dealer in the long run. When I see the word fee I understand it to be something that is fixed and government related which it is not. Most BMW Enthusiasts pay $625 which is a lot in itself. I got dinged for an extra $200. For the dealer just to slide extra profit for 15 minutes of work, is a bit deceptive. But then BMW dealers in Chicago ALWAYS make math errors in their and slide hidden fees into leases. What I find a problem is deceit, lying, math errors in the dealers favor, and other underhanded practices associated with leasing. What I find also galling is that BMW FS gives the dealers a wink, wink and just looks the other way while loyal BMW Enthusiasts get fleeced. This is not good for for brand loyalty.

Is dinging me for an extra $200 really worth it? For that the dealer gets very negative reviews on the BMW Buyer Satisfaction Survey, a letter to BMW (this is my 5th BMW including me, business cars, and my son), and zero referrals for future business. Plus I will likely go elsewhere the next time. Plus negative posts on the internet. What a stupid business decision that was to ding me for $200.
 

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Your post reflects a typical dealer attitude toward hidden profit. However this is shortsighted and much more expensive to the dealer in the long run. When I see the word fee I understand it to be something that is fixed and government related which it is not. Most BMW Enthusiasts pay $625 which is a lot in itself. I got dinged for an extra $200. For the dealer just to slide extra profit for 15 minutes of work, is a bit deceptive. But then BMW dealers in Chicago ALWAYS make math errors in their and slide hidden fees into leases. What I find a problem is deceit, lying, math errors in the dealers favor, and other underhanded practices associated with leasing. What I find also galling is that BMW FS gives the dealers a wink, wink and just looks the other way while loyal BMW Enthusiasts get fleeced. This is not good for for brand loyalty.

Is dinging me for an extra $200 really worth it? For that the dealer gets very negative reviews on the BMW Buyer Satisfaction Survey, a letter to BMW (this is my 5th BMW including me, business cars, and my son), and zero referrals for future business. Plus I will likely go elsewhere the next time. Plus negative posts on the internet. What a stupid business decision that was to ding me for $200.
I think you need to do a little more research. I hate to burst your bubble, but the term "fee" is more commonly a profit markup than a regulatory mandated fixed charge:

Cell phones - regulatory compliance fee, activation fee
Airlines - fuel surcharge fee, paper ticket issue fee
Credit cards - over limit fee
Banks - returned check fee

Every time you see the word "fee", replace it with "profit".
 

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I've got to agree that it's just sleezy for dealers to try to HIDE profit centers under the guise of "Fees" and try to make it appear to their customers that the fees are fixed and out of their control--and being paid to 3rd parties like BMWFS--when in fact they're not.

The inflation of BMWFS lease acquisition fees and BMWFS money factors is a prime example. Most consumers aren't as in the know about this as we are, and so they get "taken"; that is, they believe they're buying a car for, say, $1,000 off MSRP (or if they're a little more educated, perhaps they know they're buying at $2,000 above dealer invoice), but they don't realize they may be paying at least $1,500 more to the DEALER by way of the hidden inflation by the dealer of the lease aq fee and the lease money factors.

And don't even get me started on bogus "dealer prep", "training", and "MACO" fees. Dealer prep is a COST OF DOING BUSINESS if there ever was one. And even though BMW N.A. may have formalized the $180 training fee and regioal MACO (advertising) fees, those sure as h*#@ sound like COST OF DOING BUSINESS items as well. I can't think of any other industry where a consumer would get a hit with an add-on fee specifically for reimbursing the vendor for his costs to advertise and train his own staff about the product they're selling!

I've got nothing against a dealer making a healthy profit for their investment of capital and time to run a dealership. I just wish they would respect us consumers enough to be HONEST about it. There's nothing wrong with a dealer saying, "$2,000 is the mininum amount of markup we need to have on each car we sell to cover our costs of doing business and ensure a reasonable profit." And no other bulls%$! fees to cover up that fact.
 

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I think you need to do a little more research. I hate to burst your bubble, but the term "fee" is more commonly a profit markup than a regulatory mandated fixed charge:

Cell phones - regulatory compliance fee, activation fee
Airlines - fuel surcharge fee, paper ticket issue fee
Credit cards - over limit fee
Banks - returned check fee

Every time you see the word "fee", replace it with "profit".
:stupid:

I'd like to know what the buy rate of all these fees are so I know how much I'm getting ripped off elsewhere. This is an outrage!

The acquisition fee is clearly noted on the lease agreement. Truth in lending. If you had a problem with BMW FS having an $825 acq fee much less it being marked up modestly, why didn't you bring it up at signing? There's nothing sneaky about it, IMO. It was something you should've addressed in your initial negotiations. The center is going by the guidelines BMW FS lays out for leases. When you're calculating a lease you always factor this in. It appears more an oversight on your part than with disclosure on the center's part since they noted it on the lease agreement. It even has it's own paragragh on the lease agreement.

Here's another tid bit of food for thought: FYI, BMW FS takes a 25% cut of reserve with the smidgeon of profit made from acq fee mark included. Thus, the center makes just $150 on the finance end of the aqc fee. I wouldn't sweat this, bud. There's more important things to stress and worry about especially these days. Just chalk it up to a lesson learned. I hardly think that monthly payment wise, $4.16 ($150/60) over 36 months on a lease payment of $8-$1,000 a month is going to break your budget.

Also, I wouldn't ding them on the survey just for this. Livelihoods, bonuses, and a whole array of things depend on good surveys and this is not a good reason to give a poor one.
 

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:stupid:

I'd like to know what the buy rate of all these fees are so I know how much I'm getting ripped off elsewhere. This is an outrage!

The acquisition fee is clearly noted on the lease agreement. Truth in lending. If you had a problem with BMW FS having an $825 acq fee much less it being marked up modestly, why didn't you bring it up at signing? There's nothing sneaky about it, IMO....

....I wouldn't sweat this, bud. There's more important things to stress and worry about especially these days. Just chalk it up to a lesson learned...
Yes, the acq. fee is noted on the lease, but no where does it say "BMWFS charges only $625. If it's any higher, the extra goes to the dealer as additional profit."

Also, the lease DOESN'T disclose the difference between the BUY RATE and the SELL RATE of the lease money factor. If it were really truth-in-lending, this would be disclosed along with the total amount of extra $$ the markup will cost you over the term of the lease.

Altogether, this is just underhanded deception on the part of dealers who try to make consumers feel as though they're getting a GREAT deal when in fact theu're STEALING from consumers by disguising who gets the benefit of these inflated fees.

And HOW DARE YOU (!) try to blow this off as "I wouldn't sweat this, bud. Just chalk this up to lesson learned." That's blaming the victim for not knowing the dealer was trying to screw them. What an arrogant attitude you have to treat your customers this way. How about trying to be HONEST with your customers in the first place? If you truly provide excellent customer service, your customers should have no qualms about paying you a reasonable markup for the provilege of doing business with you vs. another dealer. You shouldn't have to trick them into paying more.
 

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And don't even get me started on bogus "dealer prep", "training", and "MACO" fees. Dealer prep is a COST OF DOING BUSINESS if there ever was one. And even though BMW N.A. may have formalized the $180 training fee and regioal MACO (advertising) fees, those sure as h*#@ sound like COST OF DOING BUSINESS items as well. I can't think of any other industry where a consumer would get a hit with an add-on fee specifically for reimbursing the vendor for his costs to advertise and train his own staff about the product they're selling!

I've got nothing against a dealer making a healthy profit for their investment of capital and time to run a dealership. I just wish they would respect us consumers enough to be HONEST about it. There's nothing wrong with a dealer saying, "$2,000 is the mininum amount of markup we need to have on each car we sell to cover our costs of doing business and ensure a reasonable profit." And no other bulls%$! fees to cover up that fact.
Smalldog,

It seems to me at the end of the day it's just how these things are packaged. It so happens that for cars, we know a lot about the dealer's costs, etc., so we can see how the pricing is done and where the money is being made. But would you really be all that much happier if the pricing and cost structure were more opaque? Put this another way. You're right that there are few other industries where advertising and training fees get explicitly tacked on. But they still are the cost of doing business in any industry, and you're fooling yourself if you think they're not included in the price--in other industries, you just don't know what these are, and they get built in to the price. That $1.99 Big Mac does have a maco and training fee built in to its price, you just don't know what it is. To me, there's no real difference. Indeed, I even slightly prefer knowing the actual training and advertising costs.

As another example: when I go out to eat, I pay for the food and the service separately, via a tip. Now, the restaurant could just build the tip into the price of food (say, charge 15-20% more for all the entrees) and say there's no tip--is there really a difference to you?
 

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Yes, the acq. fee is noted on the lease, but no where does it say "BMWFS charges only $625. If it's any higher, the extra goes to the dealer as additional profit."

Also, the lease DOESN'T disclose the difference between the BUY RATE and the SELL RATE of the lease money factor. If it were really truth-in-lending, this would be disclosed along with the total amount of extra $$ the markup will cost you over the term of the lease.

Altogether, this is just underhanded deception on the part of dealers who try to make consumers feel as though they're getting a GREAT deal when in fact theu're STEALING from consumers by disguising who gets the benefit of these inflated fees.

And HOW DARE YOU (!) try to blow this off as "I wouldn't sweat this, bud. Just chalk this up to lesson learned." That's blaming the victim for not knowing the dealer was trying to screw them. What an arrogant attitude you have to treat your customers this way. How about trying to be HONEST with your customers in the first place? If you truly provide excellent customer service, your customers should have no qualms about paying you a reasonable markup for the provilege of doing business with you vs. another dealer. You shouldn't have to trick them into paying more.
Smalldog,

But in what industry do you know the firm's costs? I don't know how much it costs McD's to make a big mac. Or how much it costs the gap to make a shirt. I presume your customers (whatever your line of work is) don't know your true costs, either. Why should car dealers be under any obligation to disclose their costs as well? It seems to me it's on the consumer to educate himself. If a consumer doesn't want to do the research that lets him know about markups on the MF and AF, that's his right, but why should he complain if the dealer tries to get the full markup? Same with consumers who don't bother to learn that you (generally) don't pay MSRP on a car.

I'm not a dealer and have never been one. It just seems to me that a lot of your outrage is based on the fact that for cars, we know an awful lot about the dealer's costs that we simply don't know for other industries.
 

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Yes, the acq. fee is noted on the lease, but no where does it say "BMWFS charges only $625. If it's any higher, the extra goes to the dealer as additional profit."

Also, the lease DOESN'T disclose the difference between the BUY RATE and the SELL RATE of the lease money factor. If it were really truth-in-lending, this would be disclosed along with the total amount of extra $$ the markup will cost you over the term of the lease.

Altogether, this is just underhanded deception on the part of dealers who try to make consumers feel as though they're getting a GREAT deal when in fact theu're STEALING from consumers by disguising who gets the benefit of these inflated fees.

And HOW DARE YOU (!) try to blow this off as "I wouldn't sweat this, bud. Just chalk this up to lesson learned." That's blaming the victim for not knowing the dealer was trying to screw them. What an arrogant attitude you have to treat your customers this way. How about trying to be HONEST with your customers in the first place? If you truly provide excellent customer service, your customers should have no qualms about paying you a reasonable markup for the provilege of doing business with you vs. another dealer. You shouldn't have to trick them into paying more.
Come on now - I don't believe there was any trickery here. The dealer didn't say that it costs them X, and I'm selling it to you for Y. They just said that the fee is Y.

Now, do we really expect that anything is not marked up? EVERYTHING is marked up. You go to eat, buy a toaster, buy insurance, etc. its all marked up. This is called profit. If we all got paid what we were worth, companies wouldn't make a profit. I'm not sure how practical it would be if everything in life had a "cost" and "profit" associated with it. Competition and market forces dictate that profit is fair - perhaps not reasonable?

Bottom line, I highly advocate negotiating based on an out-the-door price or agreement. Then let them slice and dice it however they want. Things like registration, statutory fees, invoice prices, holdback etc. are available online - you just need to do a little research. If the OP had been lucky enough to spend some time on the boards, he would have realised that their was a markup, and negotiated accordingly.
 

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Dealers are, IMHO, unnecessary middle men between the end-customer and the car manufacturer. Increasingly, one can buy just about anything online direct from the manufacturer (airline tickets, computers, apparel, even home mortgages).

I'd much prefer being able to buy a BMW direct from BMW online than having to worry about paying a dealer some fee to ADVERTISE and TRAIN his people. Heck, I don't benefit from their advertising. I don't benefit from their training their salespeople; they usually know less than me about their products.

As for the notion that dealers have no obligation to disclose their costs, I couldn't agree more, but IF they choose to disclose something as a fee, it should be ACCURATELTY and HONESTLY attributed. You cannot deny that dealers (finance managers, in particular) are fully aware (and take advantage of) the fact the most consumers misunderstand and think these fees are unrelated to the dealer's markup. By attributing an (inflated) fee to someone else, as dealers do when it comes to lease acq. fees and lease money factors, dealers are intentionally deceiving their customers, especially in the context of a price negotiation in which dealers foster the impression among less educated consumers that the ONLY markup a dealer earns is the difference between invoice price and selling price.

To use your analogy, when I buy a Big Mac for $1.99, sure I realize that price includes all the costs of doing business plus some amount of profit. But when McDonald's adds 7% sales tax to my order, I know that ALL of that markup is TAX that goes to the state, not additional stealth profit that McDonald's is pocketing.
 

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Dealers are, IMHO, unnecessary middle men between the end-customer and the car manufacturer. Increasingly, one can buy just about anything online direct from the manufacturer (airline tickets, computers, apparel, even home mortgages).
Why not get rid of BMWNA, and deal directly with BMW Munich? We can even pay in Euros and knock out all those inflated hedging fees.

Tongue in cheek, but I think dealers provide a wide range of services that BMW doesn't want to deal with - inventory financing, local training, community involvement, real estate management, test drives,... You're also assuming that if you deal directly with the manufacturer, then they will offer fixed pricing. They probably will not - evidence? Allocation to dealers from BMW is not fixed, it is negotiated.

I recently renewed my cell phone contract DIRECTLY with Verizon - the credit they gave me was negotiated, it wasn't a fixed credit they give to every person who renews their contract. Another example, I work for a large financial institution - clients negotiate their deposit/lending rates with us, even though they deal with us directly and without a middle man. Of course phone companies and financial institutions make a small profit, and never intentionally deceive their customers :).

Fixed pricing will reward the customer who is less knowledgeable or has a weak bargaining position. Negotiated pricing will reward the customer who is more knowledgeable or has a strong bargaining position. Since I have no influence on forcing companies to offer fixed pricing, I choose to make myself more knowledgeable and understand my bargaining position. In fact, since this allows me typically to get a nice deal, I don't have much incentive to push for fixed pricing unfortunately...
 

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Dealers are, IMHO, unnecessary middle men between the end-customer and the car manufacturer. Increasingly, one can buy just about anything online direct from the manufacturer (airline tickets, computers, apparel, even home mortgages).

I'd much prefer being able to buy a BMW direct from BMW online than having to worry about paying a dealer some fee to ADVERTISE and TRAIN his people. Heck, I don't benefit from their advertising. I don't benefit from their training their salespeople; they usually know less than me about their products.

As for the notion that dealers have no obligation to disclose their costs, I couldn't agree more, but IF they choose to disclose something as a fee, it should be ACCURATELTY and HONESTLY attributed. You cannot deny that dealers (finance managers, in particular) are fully aware (and take advantage of) the fact the most consumers misunderstand and think these fees are unrelated to the dealer's markup. By attributing an (inflated) fee to someone else, as dealers do when it comes to lease acq. fees and lease money factors, dealers are intentionally deceiving their customers, especially in the context of a price negotiation in which dealers foster the impression among less educated consumers that the ONLY markup a dealer earns is the difference between invoice price and selling price.

To use your analogy, when I buy a Big Mac for $1.99, sure I realize that price includes all the costs of doing business plus some amount of profit. But when McDonald's adds 7% sales tax to my order, I know that ALL of that markup is TAX that goes to the state, not additional stealth profit that McDonald's is pocketing.
But you only know the 7% sales tax because McD's chooses to put this out separately. there are plenty of stores that just bundle everything in and give you a price that includes tax--would you prefer McD's just did that? Again, I like the transparency.
 

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"Typical Dealer Attitude"? I went and purchased a gym membership with 24 hour fitness a few years ago. They have sign up fees, doc fees, etc. These fees were PURE profit, and I had no qualms paying them. Its not my position to demand their cost on the membership, thats how busines works. Did I act like a nut and proclaim they were STEALING from me? :lol:

Its laughable though, the cheaper the car, the more arrogant the customer. The cheaper the car, the more the customer feels they've been ripped off. The cheaper the car, the more bull**** haggling the CA gets put through. And guess what, you're NEVER happy, no matter what price you got. You walk in with this false sense of bravado, SURE that you know more about BMW than the CA and you're going to DEMAND this price or the CA can go **** himself. Look at yourself, bud. Car negotiations not going as swimmingly as possible? Stop acting like George Costanza int he episode "The Dealership."
 

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Re: tax getting wrapped into some prices (gas and cigarettes comes to mind), who cares. Again, the taxes are legitimately paid to the government, not added to falsely inflate the vendors' margins; they're disclosed and accurated attributed.

I didn't say I prefer fixed pricing when I suggested I'd rather buy from BMW directly. I'd just prefer not to deal with unnecessary middlemen.

I agree w/you about negotiating directly w/Verizon, etc. It works. But at least when a gym, etc. charges you additional fees, they don't try to B.S. you that the fees are for someone else instead of them. Again, I've not NO PROBLEM with people making a profit by adding value to the equation. Just don't try to inflate the price by attributing additional charges falsely to others.

As far as me knowing more than the C.A., yes, it's been my experience that most C.A.'s don't know as much about new products and options packages as I do. Several I've met, for example, didn't know (or else played dumb) about "Priority 1" options for 3-series, X3, and 5-series cars, when in fact those are well documented on Centernet. Again, I really don't care that the C.A. isn't as knowledgable; I just don't feel obliged to pay for his training.

As for dealers doing useful services, sure, some kind of physical retail presence is needed for test drives, service, etc., but why not do it both ways? For example, you can buy a Dell or Apple computer online direct, or you can buy it from a VAR (Value Added Reseller), or in Apple's case, one of Apple's own retail stores. Choice is good.

As for me "never being satisfied", that's B.S., too. If I can work with a dealer on the level who negotiates with me a price over dealer invoice with not other B.S. fees they try to attribute falsely to 3rd parties, then I'd be fine w/that.

As for "the cheaper the car, the more [trouble] the customer gives the C.A.", that's maybe the converse of "the richer the client, the less he cares about price, since he won't feel any difference anyway." Perhaps true. So then I suppose if BMW dealers prefer not to deal with price conscious customers, maybe they shouldn't be selling cars that retail under $60k? Funny, in my circle of friends, most would consider me "rich" to be able to spend more than $40,000 on a car. I suppose it's all a matter of perspective, but copping an attitude that people who aren't high-rollers are bastards for caring about price is definitely elitist.

Sure, I'm sure there are many dealers and CAs who are honest and helpful, and I've met some, actually. It's just that too many aren't. And most customers aren't well enough informed to know the difference.
 
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