BimmerFest BMW Forum banner

BMW M cars vs. Mercedes AMG cars

2771 Views 34 Replies 17 Participants Last post by  Dan
In Motor trend's latest issue (Apr '02), there is an interesting comparison test that pits the BMW M cars against their AMG counterparts

Here are the lineups:

1) M5 vs E55
2) M Roadster vs SLK32
3) M3 vs CLK55
4) X5 4.6is (not really an M, but they included it) vs. ML55

They choose the M car over the AMG car in all four matchups (even the non-M X5 :D ), a clean sweep! :thumb:

I know Motor Trend isn't the most objective magazine, but I still found it interesting that they didn't give any of the AMG versions the nod... :)
21 - 35 of 35 Posts
Chris330ci said:
Interesting results. I've never driven any of the AMG Benz's, but I'm sure they're a very close second. If they ever get around to making a 6 speed manual worth a [email protected], maybe the playing field might become a little more equal.
I don't think a manual transmission means all that much in the grand scheme of things. There's a small group of people that find it essential, and that group is getting smaller every day. First, because it takes some effort to become sufficiently skilled with a stick. And second, because clutchless and automatic tranmissions are getting more and more sophisticated.

Does anyone *really* think that in 25 years manual transmissions will be anything but a niche, additional-cost option preserved by only a few select manufactuters? 35 years? 50 years?

My Step transmission is damn good -- better than I am. And the day is quickly approaching when computers will completely overtake humans in this area. And frankly, I welcome it! If you're not worried about the minutia of gear-shifting, your mind is not free to concern itself with the real pleasures of the open road...

It seems to me that the term "driving enthusiast" is often appropriated by stick bigots (with all due respect, guys) for themselves, and worn like a merit badge. These people like to post pictures of their 3 pedals and say "this speaks for itself!" But this does an injustice to the whole community. There's an ineffable attitude that I think defines what it means to be a driving enthusiast that surpasses the number of pedals you have, or the engine you have, or how much money you've spent on your car versus someone else.

I can see why car managzines, whose constituency includes the manual drivers in larger proportions than normal, would pay attention to having an available manual transmission. But the fact of the matter is that this doesn't matter all that much for most of us -- and will matter less and less as time goes by.

There now. Right! Who's with me?! :D
See less See more
I don't think a manual transmission means all that much in the grand scheme of things. There's a small group of people that find it essential, and that group is getting smaller every day.
I disagree... and in fact, an article (NY Times?) was posted here recently discussing the resurgence of popularity for manual trannies.

Does anyone *really* think that in 25 years manual transmissions will be anything but a niche, additional-cost option preserved by only a few select manufactuters?
No, but only because the internal combustion engine is going to go away. As long as the ICE is around, manuals will be around. We've had automatic transmissions since WWII... that was 60 years ago, and we still have stick shifts!

There's an ineffable attitude that I think defines what it means to be a driving enthusiast that surpasses the number of pedals you have
Honestly, I think you can be a driving enthusiast and still drive an automatic transmission. But a standard-driving enthusiast is just a little more enthusiastic. :D

It's a matter of control, and being at one with the workings of the machine. No slushbox can approach the level of control that you get from a stick... it's just not possible. It can guess what you want, and make good guesses, based on all sorts of factors, but at the end of the day, they're still guesses. There's no guesswork with a stick.

It's kind of a tongue-in-cheek sport to pick on slushies... kind of like picking on the French... but all that is mainly just good natured ribbing. If you're happy with an automatic, more power to you, I say. Enjoy! I just know I have yet to find an equation that makes that compromise to the driving experience worth it for me.
See less See more
planet said:


I don't think a manual transmission means all that much in the grand scheme of things. :yikes: :mad:

...

There now. Right! Who's with me?! :D
You're on your own pal..!
:D
Re: Re: Re: BMW M cars vs. Mercedes AMG cars

Plaz 330i said:


In the above, do you define SMG as a "stick shift?"
Yes. SMG does not have a torque converter, and besides the electronically actuated clutch mechanizm, all the principles and mechanics behind the SMG is identical to that of a stick shift.
Re: Re: Re: Re: BMW M cars vs. Mercedes AMG cars

The HACK said:


Yes. SMG does not have a torque converter, and besides the electronically actuated clutch mechanizm, all the principles and mechanics behind the SMG is identical to that of a stick shift.
Thought so. Just wanted to give you the opportunity to clarify. :thumb:
planet said:


I don't think a manual transmission means all that much in the grand scheme of things. There's a small group of people that find it essential, and that group is getting smaller every day. First, because it takes some effort to become sufficiently skilled with a stick. And second, because clutchless and automatic tranmissions are getting more and more sophisticated.

Does anyone *really* think that in 25 years manual transmissions will be anything but a niche, additional-cost option preserved by only a few select manufactuters? 35 years? 50 years?

My Step transmission is damn good -- better than I am. And the day is quickly approaching when computers will completely overtake humans in this area. And frankly, I welcome it! If you're not worried about the minutia of gear-shifting, your mind is not free to concern itself with the real pleasures of the open road...

It seems to me that the term "driving enthusiast" is often appropriated by stick bigots (with all due respect, guys) for themselves, and worn like a merit badge. These people like to post pictures of their 3 pedals and say "this speaks for itself!" But this does an injustice to the whole community. There's an ineffable attitude that I think defines what it means to be a driving enthusiast that surpasses the number of pedals you have, or the engine you have, or how much money you've spent on your car versus someone else.

I can see why car managzines, whose constituency includes the manual drivers in larger proportions than normal, would pay attention to having an available manual transmission. But the fact of the matter is that this doesn't matter all that much for most of us -- and will matter less and less as time goes by.

There now. Right! Who's with me?! :D
Nobody is disputing the fact that you can drive an AUTOMATIC and still be an enthusiast. The fact in dispute here is that a car that is NOT offered as a manual at all can not be considered a sports car, period. If AMG offers a stickshift on ANY of their cars then I'll bite my tongue and give them their props.

The fact still remains that an AUTOMATIC has a torque converter that saps power from the engine, and that it'll do whatever it wants to do whenever it wants to do it. Dispite all the advanced programming of the SMG it still lets you hold the engine at redline in S6 mode, rather than "THINKING" for you and shifting it up into another gear.
Plaz 330i said:

In the above, do you define SMG as a "stick shift?"
BMW considers it a "manual transmission." in the quote mentioned by OJ330i regarding definition of M cars [with respect to the X5], the exec said rear-wheel drive and manual transmission are required. obviously he was including the M3's SMG in that definition.
The HACK said:
Nobody is disputing the fact that you can drive an AUTOMATIC and still be an enthusiast. The fact in dispute here is that a car that is NOT offered as a manual at all can not be considered a sports car, period. If AMG offers a stickshift on ANY of their cars then I'll bite my tongue and give them their props.
If the car handles the time-sensitive mechanics of driving better than a human, then a computer-assisted transmission should be superior. Besides, in a few decades, we probably won't even have gears to shift in the first place. Does being able to shift 0.2 seconds earlier give you that much?

The fact still remains that an AUTOMATIC has a torque converter that saps power from the engine, and that it'll do whatever it wants to do whenever it wants to do it. Dispite all the advanced programming of the SMG it still lets you hold the engine at redline in S6 mode, rather than "THINKING" for you and shifting it up into another gear. [/B]
With the power of today's engines, the power sap really isn't that significant. Sure, it'll be a little slower, but the engineers who build these vehicles can take that into account to build the car with the specifications they want.

I agree about the SMG. It does seem like it gives you an excellent compromise. No clutch to deal with, and still the level of control that so many people enjoy. Hell, I spend a lot of time in pseudo-manual step mode myself, so I can understand the impulse. I just think that the trends we've seen and continue to see are moving us away from controlling our cars.
See less See more
planet said:

If the car handles the time-sensitive mechanics of driving better than a human, then a computer-assisted transmission should be superior... Does being able to shift 0.2 seconds earlier give you that much?
and here's the point you aren't getting... for me it's not an issue of being able to shift faster than an automatic transmission. it's being as involved in the driving process as possible. if i own a [insert your dream car here] but let someone else drive it while i sit in the passenger seat, what's the point? obviously that's taking the argument to an extreme, but you get the idea.

personally i don't care if SMG is "better" than i am, i would still want a manual tranmisssion that i am clutching, matching revs, blipping, feathering, missing a shift... whatever. that's why i hope bmw never makes SMG the only option on any of their cars, no matter how technologically advanced it is.

now i'm not saying manual is better, or that auto-trannies make you less of an enthusiast... i'm just trying to explain my preferences and to make a point that seemed to be overlooked.


I just think that the trends we've seen and continue to see are moving us away from controlling our cars.
you're probably right, but i don't like it.

kurt
See less See more
Re: Re: BMW M cars vs. Mercedes AMG cars

The HACK said:
Not bagging on people who drive autos...Drive what you will. But if a car wants to be a true sports car/sedan it NEEDS to have a stick shift. PERIOD. So unless AMGs are offered with stickshifts, I will continue to lust over ///M cars and pass AMG up.
Sorry, Hack, but I have to disagree with you on this one. The E55 is a true sports sedan, even with the auto. Every car magazine that has tested the E55, including Car & Driver, Road & Track, Automobile and AutoWeek have declared it to be a true sports sedan, and an excellent one at that. True, it loses out to the M5, but so does everyone else.

Here are my thoughts on auto v. manual: I learned how to drive on a manual, and I think that the skill required to operate a manual transmission correctly is lacking in the majority of today's drivers, most of whom learned how to drive on an automatic. However, I think people should drive what they like. The inability to operate a manual does limit a driver's sporting abilities, but does not prevent one from driving in a sporting manner.

As far as the future of the manual, I am afraid that it will slowly go the way of the dinosaur. Not because of the advances in automatic transmissions, but because of massive traffic congestion, ever-increasing commute times, gridlock at all hours of the day and night in major metropolitan areas and the fact that most people eat, drink, talk on the phone and do many other stupid things in their cars besides paying attention to driving.
See less See more
Re: Re: Re: BMW M cars vs. Mercedes AMG cars

While I don't agree on the whole auto vs manual thing, I do agree that people who can't drive/don't want/don't feel comfortable driving a manual should have an auto tranny option...

But the gripe with AMG is that auto is the only option... :tsk:

Call me crazy, but I enjoy my manual tranny even more in heavy traffic :dunno: :thumb:

It's sad that people do all those things you mentioned while driving... :tsk: :mad: Sorry, but IMHO, whoever gets auto tranny just so they can do ANY of those things while driving, should lose their licenses...

Edit:

I don't believe manual trannies will disappear... Heck, even the CTS offers it now...

Dan said:


Sorry, Hack, but I have to disagree with you on this one. The E55 is a true sports sedan, even with the auto. Every car magazine that has tested the E55, including Car & Driver, Road & Track, Automobile and AutoWeek have declared it to be a true sports sedan, and an excellent one at that. True, it loses out to the M5, but so does everyone else.

Here are my thoughts on auto v. manual: I learned how to drive on a manual, and I think that the skill required to operate a manual transmission correctly is lacking in the majority of today's drivers, most of whom learned how to drive on an automatic. However, I think people should drive what they like. The inability to operate a manual does limit a driver's sporting abilities, but does not prevent one from driving in a sporting manner.

As far as the future of the manual, I am afraid that it will slowly go the way of the dinosaur. Not because of the advances in automatic transmissions, but because of massive traffic congestion, ever-increasing commute times, gridlock at all hours of the day and night in major metropolitan areas and the fact that most people eat, drink, talk on the phone and do many other stupid things in their cars besides paying attention to driving.
See less See more
Re: Re: Re: Re: BMW M cars vs. Mercedes AMG cars

ALEX325i said:
It's sad that people do all those things you mentioned while driving... :tsk: :mad: Sorry, but IMHO, whoever gets auto tranny just so they can do ANY of those things while driving, should lose their licenses...
No worries :) Car manufacturers are working on voice control systems for the next generation cars. There was a very interesting program on TV a few months ago. They showed a prototype BMW (E46) fully loaded with voice control system. The driver was controlling almost everything with voice commands, from the wipers to the windows, NAV, radio, A/C etc.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: BMW M cars vs. Mercedes AMG cars

Oh, great... I wonder what people will do while driving now... :eek: :yikes: :eeps:

Alex Baumann said:


No worries :) Car manufacturers are working on voice control systems for the next generation cars. There was a very interesting program on TV a few months ago. They showed a prototype BMW (E46) fully loaded with voice control system. The driver was controlling almost everything with voice commands, from the wipers to the windows, NAV, radio, A/C etc.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: BMW M cars vs. Mercedes AMG cars

ALEX325i said:
Oh, great... I wonder what people will do while driving now... :eek: :yikes: :eeps:
play video games :D
Re: Re: Re: Re: BMW M cars vs. Mercedes AMG cars

ALEX325i said:
While I don't agree on the whole auto vs manual thing, I do agree that people who can't drive/don't want/don't feel comfortable driving a manual should have an auto tranny option...

But the gripe with AMG is that auto is the only option... :tsk:

Call me crazy, but I enjoy my manual tranny even more in heavy traffic :dunno: :thumb:

It's sad that people do all those things you mentioned while driving... :tsk: :mad: Sorry, but IMHO, whoever gets auto tranny just so they can do ANY of those things while driving, should lose their licenses...

Edit:

I don't believe manual trannies will disappear... Heck, even the CTS offers it now...

Alex, I agree with you that the AMG cars need to offer manual trannys, and I can't stand inattentive, distracted drivers either. But - driving a manual in gridlock or stop and go traffic jams drives me nuts!!! I hope manuals will never disappear, but I think they will truly become a niche item for dedicated, hardcore enthusiasts. That recent WSJ article about manuals was interesting - seems like they are becoming the "in" thing for some trendy people (probably the same lemmings who bought SUVs because they were the "in" vehicle and then realized that they hated them).
21 - 35 of 35 Posts
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top