Burger vs Dinan??
Everyone here seems to be hyped for Dinan products. I know they have a great reputation and track record with BMW; however, it seems that Burger Motorsports can boast a smilier character with a better value.
I would venture to say that the NEW Burger stage 2 tune on a N55 - 535i would be a more advanced and more effective tune than whatever Dinan is coming out with. Again, this is my opinion.
I would venture to say that the NEW Burger stage 2 tune on a N55 - 535i would be a more advanced and more effective tune than whatever Dinan is coming out with. Again, this is my opinion.
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Dinan is a complete flash tune that re-writes specific commands in your ECU to make more power. Aside from making more power they also have the ability to raise the parameters that was set in place to protect the motor. Timing is adjusted accordingly based on the increased boost pressure as well as other commands. Basically with a flash tune they have the ability to control everything your stock ecu does and alter all areas of it to make more power safely. The down side with flash tunes is that it takes a lot of work to crack all the codes in the stock ecu so it could be awhile before this becomes an option for the F10. All of the tuners are focused on the 3 series crowd the most.
In my opinion the only reason to go with Dinan for the 535 is for people that don't want any hassle with wrenching with their car themselves and not be bothered with warranty issues since Dinan picks up the tab if BMW denies you warranty because of their tune. Last I recall the Dinan flash cost about 2K which is the most expensive tune out there. Its not cheap when you consider Cobb gives you a hand held device that allows you to flash your own car yourself in 15mins for only $800 for the N54 cars. Something to keep in mind is that BMW isn't OK with your dinan parts. Its just that if BMW denies your warranty Dinan picks up the tab. There is a difference.
Burgertuning's JB4 is a completely different animal that is referred to as a piggyback system. In a nutshell it tricks the ecu be altering various sensors from the motor to make more boost which nets you more power. The down side is that the motor's safety protocols are still designed to handle stock boost/power so some will argue that it isn't enough protection on such an expensive part of the car. Even though your JB4 tuned 535 might be boosting at 15psi, your ecu still thinks its only boosting 10 and it will only react to it based on the stock boost numbers if anything bad were to go on inside the motor. Granted this concern is very real, the stock Bmw ecu is advanced enough to protect itself and i've yet to see anyone blow up their motor running a default setting piggyback system. This debate has been going on for YEARS in the E9X section between the two big "camps" Vishnu and JB. Lots to read up on if you guys are interested.
For me the JB4 offers the best bang for the buck that is proven to work ever since the N54 motor came out. The stock ecu is advanced/fast enough that if it see's anything wrong it will do its thing to protect the motor or otherwise we would have seen a lot more cases of blown engines on the forums. At around $500 you make more power than what a typical Dinan flash offers for a quarter of the price. Guys on the E9X forums who have the Dinan tune on the N54 cars usually end up swapping it out for a different tune because its just not making as much power as other options. The only thing is if you ever bring your car in for work you have to remove the tune or risk having your warranty voided. Some dealers are more mod friendly and some arent.
My plan is to go with the JB4 for the time being until Cobb releases the Accessport for the N55 F10. I've had all 3 major tunes on my 335 and nothing beats the Cobb with the conveince of flashing your car in the comfort of your own garage in 10 minutes.
Alan
In my opinion the only reason to go with Dinan for the 535 is for people that don't want any hassle with wrenching with their car themselves and not be bothered with warranty issues since Dinan picks up the tab if BMW denies you warranty because of their tune. Last I recall the Dinan flash cost about 2K which is the most expensive tune out there. Its not cheap when you consider Cobb gives you a hand held device that allows you to flash your own car yourself in 15mins for only $800 for the N54 cars. Something to keep in mind is that BMW isn't OK with your dinan parts. Its just that if BMW denies your warranty Dinan picks up the tab. There is a difference.
Burgertuning's JB4 is a completely different animal that is referred to as a piggyback system. In a nutshell it tricks the ecu be altering various sensors from the motor to make more boost which nets you more power. The down side is that the motor's safety protocols are still designed to handle stock boost/power so some will argue that it isn't enough protection on such an expensive part of the car. Even though your JB4 tuned 535 might be boosting at 15psi, your ecu still thinks its only boosting 10 and it will only react to it based on the stock boost numbers if anything bad were to go on inside the motor. Granted this concern is very real, the stock Bmw ecu is advanced enough to protect itself and i've yet to see anyone blow up their motor running a default setting piggyback system. This debate has been going on for YEARS in the E9X section between the two big "camps" Vishnu and JB. Lots to read up on if you guys are interested.
For me the JB4 offers the best bang for the buck that is proven to work ever since the N54 motor came out. The stock ecu is advanced/fast enough that if it see's anything wrong it will do its thing to protect the motor or otherwise we would have seen a lot more cases of blown engines on the forums. At around $500 you make more power than what a typical Dinan flash offers for a quarter of the price. Guys on the E9X forums who have the Dinan tune on the N54 cars usually end up swapping it out for a different tune because its just not making as much power as other options. The only thing is if you ever bring your car in for work you have to remove the tune or risk having your warranty voided. Some dealers are more mod friendly and some arent.
My plan is to go with the JB4 for the time being until Cobb releases the Accessport for the N55 F10. I've had all 3 major tunes on my 335 and nothing beats the Cobb with the conveince of flashing your car in the comfort of your own garage in 10 minutes.
Alan
Alan, that is the most complete answer I could ask for! Skillz!
I hear that the F10 N55 platform can still tell if an external tune was applied, even if it is removed and returned to stock. So if the Burger JB4 N55 piggyback system is used and then removed, can the dealership tell if it ever had the tune? This can be important as if something goes wrong, I don't want the dealership to be able to say that I voided the warranty.
This post over on the F10 forum is pushing me real close to getting the BMT stage 2.
http://f10.5post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=725059
I hear that the F10 N55 platform can still tell if an external tune was applied, even if it is removed and returned to stock. So if the Burger JB4 N55 piggyback system is used and then removed, can the dealership tell if it ever had the tune? This can be important as if something goes wrong, I don't want the dealership to be able to say that I voided the warranty.
This post over on the F10 forum is pushing me real close to getting the BMT stage 2.
http://f10.5post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=725059
Glad i could help. I did a lot of reading on tunes when first got my 335 back in 2009 and i've had the JB3, Procede and Cobb on my car before.
On the topic of tunes being detectable.... there is no definitive yes/no answer. Every brand tuner will tell you something different and frankly unless you worked for BMW nobody knows for sure. Flash tuners will say that their tunes aren't detectable while piggyback tuners will say they are because there are other areas of the car that logs what goes on in the car that the flashes can't reset/touch. Your typical dealership won't have the tools to look deep enough into your ecu to find out if your car was altered or not but if they really wanted to i'm sure they can get BMW HQ to get involved. If they are that hell bent on trying to figure out if you had a tune on your car then you are pretty much screwed regardless. From my experience on the E9x board dealers don't go that far. Just make sure you remove the tune before you bring the car in and you should be safe. My suggestion to everyone getting a tune is to also pick up the Bavarian Technic ODBII scanner. They just came out with a beta version that supports the F10 and its extremely helpful to diagnose any issue your car might be having but also be able to delete out any codes/shadow codes that is related to tuning.
More info about the scanner here...
http://www.bavariantechnic.com
and sold here - http://www.burgertuning.com/scanner.html
You only need the enthusiast version
Alan
On the topic of tunes being detectable.... there is no definitive yes/no answer. Every brand tuner will tell you something different and frankly unless you worked for BMW nobody knows for sure. Flash tuners will say that their tunes aren't detectable while piggyback tuners will say they are because there are other areas of the car that logs what goes on in the car that the flashes can't reset/touch. Your typical dealership won't have the tools to look deep enough into your ecu to find out if your car was altered or not but if they really wanted to i'm sure they can get BMW HQ to get involved. If they are that hell bent on trying to figure out if you had a tune on your car then you are pretty much screwed regardless. From my experience on the E9x board dealers don't go that far. Just make sure you remove the tune before you bring the car in and you should be safe. My suggestion to everyone getting a tune is to also pick up the Bavarian Technic ODBII scanner. They just came out with a beta version that supports the F10 and its extremely helpful to diagnose any issue your car might be having but also be able to delete out any codes/shadow codes that is related to tuning.
More info about the scanner here...
http://www.bavariantechnic.com
and sold here - http://www.burgertuning.com/scanner.html
You only need the enthusiast version
Alan
If you get anything other than Dinan and something goes wrong, you will have serious issues. Which is why the price of Dinan is what it is. A peace of mind is worth it.
I have to agree.
I am happy with the performance of my 535. If I had wanted more power I would have gone with the 550. Every now and then, I wish I had of. In the end, the power and MPG and are good match for what I use the car for.
I am happy with the performance of my 535. If I had wanted more power I would have gone with the 550. Every now and then, I wish I had of. In the end, the power and MPG and are good match for what I use the car for.
If that was true more than 80% of the tuned N54's out there would have warranty issues denied left and right and that has not been the case.
And thats where I sit now... I believe the dealers (if you go to some indy and they dinan flash you) have every right to say no to the cpo/dinan coverage... But at least two shops around me are official BMW approved dealers with dinan workers onsite. So I expect if BMW NA allows those dealers to do that they should back the warranties on 4year or cpo coverage, I think I'm just about to bite the bullet, and I'll be a guinea pig lol.
As Alan L, said Dinan is an integrated tune, so in their 2,000+ lines of code, they programmed the water pump to run up to 10% faster to account for the additional heat generated. They also figured out a way to improve the gas mileage despite making more power. That said, the Dinan warranty coverage is still probably a major contributor their tune cost.
Rather than just looking for some additional horsepower, I have sought to improve all aspects my car's performance. Today, I have a car that has been systematically upgraded with Dinan doing the hard work of developing and testing their mods in an integrated manner such that the mods actually work together to improve performance. I have no desire to drive frankencar that works great under certain conditions and maybe not so well under other conditions. Today, I'm just patiently waiting to see what Stage 4 will bring.
Rather than just looking for some additional horsepower, I have sought to improve all aspects my car's performance. Today, I have a car that has been systematically upgraded with Dinan doing the hard work of developing and testing their mods in an integrated manner such that the mods actually work together to improve performance. I have no desire to drive frankencar that works great under certain conditions and maybe not so well under other conditions. Today, I'm just patiently waiting to see what Stage 4 will bring.
The numbers that a Dinan 550 puts out is very impressive but not so much for other models that i've seen. A Dinan N54 car would get destroyed by another n54 car running either a JB4 or Procede or Cobb. As someone has already mentioned a huge part of Dinan's price tag is for the peace of mind during warranty work. Most 550 guys wouldn't blink twice about dropping a few grand on Dinan performance mods while 528/535 guys are alittle more budget minded (btw i have a 535 on order). After all they could have went for the 550 right off the bat if that wasn't the case.
Based on what Dinan puts out for the N54 motor I am not expecting much from their N55 tune whenever it comes out. Certainly not 100hp that the 550 guys are getting. I doubt it would even match the numbers that the JB4 will be putting out.
Alan
Based on what Dinan puts out for the N54 motor I am not expecting much from their N55 tune whenever it comes out. Certainly not 100hp that the 550 guys are getting. I doubt it would even match the numbers that the JB4 will be putting out.
Alan
The Dinan numbers are already out for the non-F10 N55's: Stage 2 355hp/401tq and Stage 3 373hp/402tq.
As a reference: N54 Tune Comparison Chart (Detailed)
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As a reference: N54 Tune Comparison Chart (Detailed)
Quote from that F10 forum thread:
"Dyno tuning isn't needed nor is it possible with the JB4 for the F10. Not sure if the JB4 has valet mode or not but even if it is you can't change maps without your laptop at the moment for our cars. It maybe available once Terry gets the map switching function to work through our dash but that's later on.
Remember guys this isn't a full tune where it reprograms your existing software (think Dinan, Cobb, GIAC). What all JB tunes do is intercept various sensors throughout the motor as well as a minimal part of your ECU and alters its signal to basically trick your ecu to run more boost to achieve more power. Our motors adjusts boost based on conditions it is seeing. Bmw designed the car to make 300HP in the middle of winter, during a 100 degree summer day, in a city that has a elevation of 8K feet above sea level regardless so the ecu has the ability to raise/lower boost pressure based on various readings. This is why devices like the JB4 can easily up the boost in our cars to make more power since it changes what the ecu is seeing. Basically the ecu thinks it needs more boost to achieve 300hp when in fact you are really making much more with the JB. There is a huge debate on the N54 side about this method so i won't go there (search if you really want to learn more) but there are tons of guys running this on the 335 board without any issues so I personally would say it is safe enough for our cars. Is it the best solution? No but it is the ONLY solution for more power now aside from the $1300 Hartge tune which i suspect does the same thing and JB products have had a pretty good track record and excellent customer service.
Alan"http://f10.5post.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12453189&postcount=34
Alan L, is this you, or your twin??
I am so excited about getting the Burger Stage 2 in the next couple of months. The write up on the BM page paints an awesome picture:
http://www.burgertuning.com/N55_Stage2_Jb4.html
--> ~380 hp and ~400 lb/tq for $559
note: The page supposedly needs to be updated to reflect that a tune is available for the F10 N55.
http://www.dinancars.com/shop/D900-31T-Stage-2-Performance-Engine-Software-N55.aspx#page=1
--> 355 hp and 401 lb/t for $1999
Dinan needs to post a dyno graph of the performance, because peak numbers are irrelevant. I also want to see a graph from Burger specifically for the N55 on the F10.
http://www.dinancars.com/shop/D900-31T-Stage-2-Performance-Engine-Software-N55.aspx#page=1
"Dyno tuning isn't needed nor is it possible with the JB4 for the F10. Not sure if the JB4 has valet mode or not but even if it is you can't change maps without your laptop at the moment for our cars. It maybe available once Terry gets the map switching function to work through our dash but that's later on.
Remember guys this isn't a full tune where it reprograms your existing software (think Dinan, Cobb, GIAC). What all JB tunes do is intercept various sensors throughout the motor as well as a minimal part of your ECU and alters its signal to basically trick your ecu to run more boost to achieve more power. Our motors adjusts boost based on conditions it is seeing. Bmw designed the car to make 300HP in the middle of winter, during a 100 degree summer day, in a city that has a elevation of 8K feet above sea level regardless so the ecu has the ability to raise/lower boost pressure based on various readings. This is why devices like the JB4 can easily up the boost in our cars to make more power since it changes what the ecu is seeing. Basically the ecu thinks it needs more boost to achieve 300hp when in fact you are really making much more with the JB. There is a huge debate on the N54 side about this method so i won't go there (search if you really want to learn more) but there are tons of guys running this on the 335 board without any issues so I personally would say it is safe enough for our cars. Is it the best solution? No but it is the ONLY solution for more power now aside from the $1300 Hartge tune which i suspect does the same thing and JB products have had a pretty good track record and excellent customer service.
Alan"http://f10.5post.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12453189&postcount=34
Alan L, is this you, or your twin??
I am so excited about getting the Burger Stage 2 in the next couple of months. The write up on the BM page paints an awesome picture:
http://www.burgertuning.com/N55_Stage2_Jb4.html
--> ~380 hp and ~400 lb/tq for $559
note: The page supposedly needs to be updated to reflect that a tune is available for the F10 N55.
http://www.dinancars.com/shop/D900-31T-Stage-2-Performance-Engine-Software-N55.aspx#page=1
--> 355 hp and 401 lb/t for $1999
Dinan needs to post a dyno graph of the performance, because peak numbers are irrelevant. I also want to see a graph from Burger specifically for the N55 on the F10.
http://www.dinancars.com/shop/D900-31T-Stage-2-Performance-Engine-Software-N55.aspx#page=1
Yep i was going to just copy and paste that post i did but i felt like writing yesterday afternoon at work lol
I am going with the JB tune once i pass break in period on my F10. I've also been hounding Cobb about F10 support on a monthly basis but so far it doesn't seem like its going to happen anytime soon unless someone local to them is willing to let them work on a 535 for a few days. They seem to be working on a N20 tune for the F10 before the N55 which sucks.
Alan
I am going with the JB tune once i pass break in period on my F10. I've also been hounding Cobb about F10 support on a monthly basis but so far it doesn't seem like its going to happen anytime soon unless someone local to them is willing to let them work on a 535 for a few days. They seem to be working on a N20 tune for the F10 before the N55 which sucks.
Alan
Just talked to Terry @ BMS. He provided this link.
http://www.n54tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16620
http://www.n54tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16620
So what do you think will happen if you put a piggyback on a reprogrmamed car? :yikes:
Everyone seems to like Dinan because of their fantastic warranty and support, if BMW denies warranty
Some N54 guys have actually tried doing this before with great results. Gives them just a slight edge against the next tuned 335 they are up against. They usually work with Terry to give them a mild version of the piggyback tune to stack it on top of a flash tune. They also do this so they can run methanol injection.
Alan
Alan
A local performance shop is saying they can do my 2012 535i using the Cobb Accessport and a program. Total cost is like $1,500 for everything. Seems pretty steep.
That is Dinan pricing there (if they had a 535i tune out), but with Dinan, you are paying a premium for their Warranty.
Does Cobb provide there own warranty?
What are the HP / Torque gains or rating with Cobb?
Does Cobb provide there own warranty?
What are the HP / Torque gains or rating with Cobb?
A local performance shop is saying they can do my 2012 535i using the Cobb Accessport and a program. Total cost is like $1,500 for everything. Seems pretty steep.
Unfortunately the Cobb accessport does not work on the F10 535's. As far as the 535's go Cobb only works on the e60's.
A local performance shop is saying they can do my 2012 535i using the Cobb Accessport and a program. Total cost is like $1,500 for everything. Seems pretty steep.
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