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Discussion Starter #1
For the last 20 years or so, I've leased my cars, after realizing I change my mind and want something new after about a year or two. I'm considering getting out of a lease early, and also considering buying an M235i CV MT. It seems to meet all my needs, fun, sporty, comfortable, practical, etc. I like the idea of trying to keep a car a bit longer, but my attention seems to get distracted along the way. . .

If I buy it, I will make myself keep it for at least 4-5 years (haven't done that since an '87 Porsche turbo cabriolet). I know the 2 series has only been around a couple years, but are there any long-term concerns, like the HP water pumps in the N54's, or any other maladies? If I buy the one I'm considering, it won't be a CPO, so there's only about 18 mos of warranty left, so I should do some due diligence on expected problems out of warranty, but there's not much data out there on these cars.

Any suggestions or expectations for long term failures or maintenance costs?

Tia,

Joel
 

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I only owned my M235i for 9 months and sold it because I didn't want to bring three cars with me to California. That said, it was pure fun and reliability for the time I owned it. Relocating to Los Angeles underscored the benefits of leasing. I had to pay a hefty additional tax on the 911 GTS I purchased last year in Maryland, whereas the lease payment on my Cayenne increased another $144 on account of CA tax. For the record the additional tax payment on the GTS was $7500! So, leasing would seem the way to go out here.
 

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Every time I really crunch numbers for lease vs. buy, the break even point is about five years. Less than that, it's cheaper to lease. More than that, it's cheaper to buy. But, years six through seven or eight is where the real savings are. I usually keep cars to just over 100k miles. I've found that that the sum of depreciation and maintenance (scheduled and unscheduled) for the second 50k miles costs about half as much as for the first 50k miles. That limited attention span is very expensive. But, different people have different priorities.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
The M235 I'm considering buying is a '15 from a non-BMW dealership, so not only is the maintenance program non-transferable, but there is no CPO. In-service was Jul 2015, so the warrant is good for another almost 3 yrs. As a MT, the resale will suck, and it doesn't have heated seats (who buys a vert without heated seats?) nor Nav (we all have phones). There are definite down-sides to buying this vehicle as a depreciating asset, especially compared to ordering what I want and leasing, but I'm starting to get the "tease of ownership" delusion where I think I'll hold the car forever (and then get a wandering eye after a year or two, I know, I know. . . )
 

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The M235 I'm considering buying is a '15 from a non-BMW dealership, so not only is the maintenance program non-transferable, but there is no CPO. In-service was Jul 2015, so the warrant is good for another almost 3 yrs. As a MT, the resale will suck, and it doesn't have heated seats (who buys a vert without heated seats?) nor Nav (we all have phones). There are definite down-sides to buying this vehicle as a depreciating asset, especially compared to ordering what I want and leasing, but I'm starting to get the "tease of ownership" delusion where I think I'll hold the car forever (and then get a wandering eye after a year or two, I know, I know. . . )
You're going to pay that deprecation, whether you lease or buy. The idea that you get out of eating the deprecation of a new car by leasing is a myth, perpetuated mostly by BMW salesmen. BMW FS gives leasers a break on the residual values. But, you either sign up for another bout of new-car depreciation when you replace your leased car, or buy the car at the end of the lease at an inflated value.

If you want a manual transmission, buy one. If you don't want one, don't buy one. It varies with models and location, but having a manual didn't affect the KBB value on my 535i when I ran the numbers. Granted, MT might be a detriment on a convertible more than on a coupe'.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
The "real world" dictates market preferences, which is why MT's are so rare. If the demand for MT's was greater, you'd see more. On a lease, no worries, you don't have to sell it, just turn it in and you're on your merry way. When you buy a car, if you want out, you have to find a willing buyer. Thats why when I do find a good, used MT car, I wait until the seller is disallusioned by the lack of MT buyers, and I get a better price. (thats also me, lonely and waiting, when I want to sell a MT car) I'm in So Cal, it may be different in different markets, YMMV.
 

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After purchasing a new vehicle you can sell it and you will of course be taking a depreciation hit. I purchased my 228i coupe for $40k and after 16 months it is only now worth $27k.

However, if I leased my vehicle for say $500 a month, no money down, I could not simply multiply the $500 times 16 months and simply give the vehicle back to the dealer. I would be stuck for the entire 36 month of payments plus disposition fee (not considering any damage). That's around $19,000 out of my pocket for 16 months of use.

At least in purchasing the vehicle, I can come away with only a $13,000 loss (40k-27k) after 16 months.

So, I don't know how anyone comes to the conclusion that purchasing vs. leasing has a 4-5 year break-even point.

I am already ahead by $6k, 16 months in, having purchased my 228i coupe, instead of leasing.
 

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After purchasing a new vehicle you can sell it and you will of course be taking a depreciation hit. I purchased my 228i coupe for $40k and after 16 months it is only now worth $27k.

However, if I leased my vehicle for say $500 a month, no money down, I could not simply multiply the $500 times 16 months and simply give the vehicle back to the dealer. I would be stuck for the entire 36 month of payments plus disposition fee (not considering any damage). That's around $19,000 out of my pocket for 16 months of use.

At least in purchasing the vehicle, I can come away with only a $13,000 loss (40k-27k) after 16 months.

So, I don't know how anyone comes to the conclusion that purchasing vs. leasing has a 4-5 year break-even point.

I am already ahead by $6k, 16 months in, having purchased my 228i coupe, instead of leasing.
A good rule of thumb is that a new car with 12k miles/year depreciates 25% the first year, 20% the years it goes out of warranty, the year it becomes seven model years old, and the year it goes over 100k miles; and 15% the remaining years. (My 535i's numbers were 26% and 18% for the first two years.)

Here in Floriduh, cars get hit with a 6% sales tax. In my case, the tax and a spare tire pretty much wiped out my discount. So, assume that you pay MSRP going out the door.

With the above assumptions, here are the numbers for a 2017 230i similarly equipped to yours. I amortized (spread out) the $995 acquisition fee over the lease. In this case, the lease vs. buy break even point is even sooner, between two and three years. That's a fluke, due to the 2 Series' exceptionally high resale values (and inflated residuals). You'll have to take my word for it that it's usually in the 4 - 5 year range.

Note that the monthly lease payment (even with the amortized $995) is cheaper for 36 months than for 48 or 60 months. That's also a fluke, due to the 2 Series exceptionally high resale values. A friend leases an M235i, and he told me this. I didn't believe him until I ran the numbers on BMWUSA.com. BMW's preferred lease business plan it to get the car back before the warranty expires, when it will command a greater actual resale value.

I keep cars ~100k miles, about eight years at 12k miles/year. That'd put my average monthly depreciation at $359/month for your car. There'd be some repair bills along the way, but nothing approaching the $29k I'd save (deprecation vs. lease payments) by keeping the car that long.

Because of the crazy lease numbers on 2 Series, you're actually still in the hole at 16 months, compared to if you were leasing. You'll be out of that hole soon, though.

I spec'd the 2017 230i in white, because I like white cars too...

I have four Michelin PSS's due to arrive today from Tire Rack, for the 535i.
 

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A good rule of thumb is that a new car with 12k miles/year depreciates 25% the first year, 20% the years it goes out of warranty, the year it becomes seven model years old, and the year it goes over 100k miles; and 15% the remaining years. (My 535i's numbers were 26% and 18% for the first two years.)

Here in Floriduh, cars get hit with a 6% sales tax. In my case, the tax and a spare tire pretty much wiped out my discount. So, assume that you pay MSRP going out the door.

With the above assumptions, here are the numbers for a 2017 230i similarly equipped to yours. I amortized (spread out) the $995 acquisition fee over the lease. In this case, the lease vs. buy break even point is even sooner, between two and three years. That's a fluke, due to the 2 Series' exceptionally high resale values (and inflated residuals). You'll have to take my word for it that it's usually in the 4 - 5 year range.

Note that the monthly lease payment (even with the amortized $995) is cheaper for 36 months than for 48 or 60 months. That's also a fluke, due to the 2 Series exceptionally high resale values. A friend leases an M235i, and he told me this. I didn't believe him until I ran the numbers on BMWUSA.com. BMW's preferred lease business plan it to get the car back before the warranty expires, when it will command a greater actual resale value.

I keep cars ~100k miles, about eight years at 12k miles/year. That'd put my average monthly depreciation at $359/month for your car. There'd be some repair bills along the way, but nothing approaching the $29k I'd save (deprecation vs. lease payments) by keeping the car that long.

Because of the crazy lease numbers on 2 Series, you're actually still in the hole at 16 months, compared to if you were leasing. You'll be out of that hole soon, though.

I spec'd the 2017 230i in white, because I like white cars too...

I have four Michelin PSS's due to arrive today from Tire Rack, for the 535i.
I wish I had the patience to keep a car 5+ years, but I don't. I quickly get bored, so leasing for me is out.

Turning over nearly new cars is a loser's game financially. Probably a sickness too.

I have my 228i coupe 16 months and I am "looking around". It's not the car which is perfectly fine.

As George Costanza would say, "It's not you BMW 228i Coupe, loaded to the gills....it's me! :dunno:
 

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After purchasing a new vehicle you can sell it and you will of course be taking a depreciation hit. I purchased my 228i coupe for $40k and after 16 months it is only now worth $27k.

However, if I leased my vehicle for say $500 a month, no money down, I could not simply multiply the $500 times 16 months and simply give the vehicle back to the dealer. I would be stuck for the entire 36 month of payments plus disposition fee (not considering any damage). That's around $19,000 out of my pocket for 16 months of use.

At least in purchasing the vehicle, I can come away with only a $13,000 loss (40k-27k) after 16 months.

So, I don't know how anyone comes to the conclusion that purchasing vs. leasing has a 4-5 year break-even point.

I am already ahead by $6k, 16 months in, having purchased my 228i coupe, instead of leasing.
I really never crunched the numbers but what you are saying is, it's cheaper to finance in the beginning than to lease it then purchase?
 

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I really never crunched the numbers but what you are saying is, it's cheaper to finance in the beginning than to lease it then purchase?
I'm saying if you leased a car that you want to dump after driving it for a year, year and a half, it will cost you more if you leased the car than if you bought the car, because you are responsible for all 36 payments when leasing, if you return the car early and have no equity in the car.

I've leased quite a few cars and some of them, I wished I could return early, but had to stick it out for 36 months, because a leasing agreement locks you in for the 36 months. There is no "escape clause".

Getting back to your question, I have found from a finance standpoint, it is usually cheaper to finance than lease. Several purchases I've made were with zero interest. The equivalent leases had money factors, in other words, interest rates.
 

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I'm saying if you leased a car that you want to dump after driving it for a year, year and a half, it will cost you more if you leased the car than if you bought the car, because you are responsible for all 36 payments when leasing, if you return the car early and have no equity in the car.

I've leased quite a few cars and some of them, I wished I could return early, but had to stick it out for 36 months, because a leasing agreement locks you in for the 36 months. There is no "escape clause".

Getting back to your question, I have found from a finance standpoint, it is usually cheaper to finance than lease. Several purchases I've made were with zero interest. The equivalent leases had money factors, in other words, interest rates.
Putting aside the financial angle here, the thing I've never understood about the pro-leasing argument is when people say you don't have to hassle with selling it when you return it. Yeah, but you're locked into the car for the term of the lease. That's fine if said term coincides exactly with how long, or short, you want to keep the car. But if you want to unload it early, it will cost you, and if for whatever reason you want to keep it, that will cost you, too. Add in that there IS a hassle involved when you return it, if there's some dings on it, or too many miles, whatever, and an argument ensues.

Not that selling the car yourself is not a hassle if you buy. Other people too often suck. And you're dealing with other people when you try and sell your used car. But leasing has its own downsides, too.
 

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Not that selling the car yourself is not a hassle if you buy. Other people too often suck. And you're dealing with other people when you try and sell your used car. But leasing has its own downsides, too.
There was a guy in south Floriduh selling his M3 on line. They found him dead in the trunk.

I had ten people on my waiting list for my E46 M3. But, when it came time they all backed out. I put it in BMWCCA.org's classified ads and had over 300 calls. Also, there are relatively few serial killers in BMWCCA. That's where I'm selling BMW's from now on, but I'm only putting my e-mail in the ad, not my phone numbers. 300 conversations with fellow E46 M3 enthusiasts took up too much time.

I have five people supposedly waiting on my 535i. Those on the M3 list who backrd out aren't allowed on the 535i list.
 

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Putting aside the financial angle here, the thing I've never understood about the pro-leasing argument is when people say you don't have to hassle with selling it when you return it. Yeah, but you're locked into the car for the term of the lease. That's fine if said term coincides exactly with how long, or short, you want to keep the car. But if you want to unload it early, it will cost you, and if for whatever reason you want to keep it, that will cost you, too. Add in that there IS a hassle involved when you return it, if there's some dings on it, or too many miles, whatever, and an argument ensues.

Not that selling the car yourself is not a hassle if you buy. Other people too often suck. And you're dealing with other people when you try and sell your used car. But leasing has its own downsides, too.
When you lease, you are locked into forever monthly car payments.

There is no escape from a leasing contract. They don't care if you die. Your estate must make good on the remaining monthly payments. You CANNOT bring the car back early without paying all remaining months on the contract.

Plus any damage, you must pay on returning the vehicle. Tires worn? Too bad. Shell out for 4 new tires that you will never get to use. Don't want to lease again? Fine. Pay a $750 "disposition" fee.

Plus you are limited to the miles you must drive in the contract. Drive in excess and they will charge you.

Plus you cannot make any "improvements" to the car. Want to add a Dinan chip? Too bad!
 

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When you lease, you are locked into forever monthly car payments.

There is no escape from a leasing contract. They don't care if you die. Your estate must make good on the remaining monthly payments. You CANNOT bring the car back early without paying all remaining months on the contract.

Plus any damage, you must pay on returning the vehicle. Tires worn? Too bad. Shell out for 4 new tires that you will never get to use. Don't want to lease again? Fine. Pay a $750 "disposition" fee.

Plus you are limited to the miles you must drive in the contract. Drive in excess and they will charge you.

Plus you cannot make any "improvements" to the car. Want to add a Dinan chip? Too bad!
I guess it depends on one's personality. For me and for the reasons you mention I would not feel like the car belonged to me if I leased. You either remember a day will come when you have to take the car back and go through all the things you mention, in which case that would detract from the experience...

Or you don't and risk an even worse day when that day comes.
 

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I guess it depends on one's personality. For me and for the reasons you mention I would not feel like the car belonged to me if I leased. You either remember a day will come when you have to take the car back and go through all the things you mention, in which case that would detract from the experience...

Or you don't and risk an even worse day when that day comes.
Well when I used to lease, I was extra careful with the car, since I knew I could be hit with expensive charges for dings that may be a little too big on returning the vehicle plus new tires. So, I was forced to be more emotionally attached and careful with the leased car than the purchased car.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
man, some of this cracks me up. Of course you can get out of a lease, I've done it a couple times. If I know I'm not going to keep a car too long, its stupid, especially in California, to buy it (almost 10% sales tax). I only pay tax on the monthly rental, cheap to no $ up front, and I can drive a brand new car every couple years. I used to be the guy that felt pride in buying all my cars, but then would lust after the newest and greatest after owning it a year.

Ironically, I'm getting out of a BMW lease, and probably buying a mustang convertible, so clearly I don't even listen to myself (insert eye rolls). :rolleyes:
 

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man, some of this cracks me up. Of course you can get out of a lease, i've done it a couple times. If i know i'm not going to keep a car too long, its stupid, especially in california, to buy it (almost 10% sales tax). I only pay tax on the monthly rental, cheap to no $ up front, and i can drive a brand new car every couple years. I used to be the guy that felt pride in buying all my cars, but then would lust after the newest and greatest after owning it a year.

Ironically, i'm getting out of a bmw lease, and probably buying a mustang convertible, so clearly i don't even listen to myself (insert eye rolls). :rolleyes:
+1
 

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I have not encountered any financial advisor that says leasing is smart fiscal move. Exception being if you can use it as a business deduction (something I know nothing about).

Some lease deals sound good even when you look a bit deeper into them, But overall, every expert says, buying the car outright is actually smarter. Only exception is if you can get 0% financing. But even then, you forfeit any rebates, or discounts available to get that percentage. Back in the day when you could get 4% on a savings account or 6-7% on a CD, it made great sense. But being that we live in a credit/debtor society, that ship has sailed

The newer cars seem to be built to better standards than cars of old. The negative to this is, if you do need a repair, it likely going to cost a whole lot more than a car of old. Euro cars are not cheap to repair (compared to say Chevy or Ford).

I have made it a rule going forward to not keep any car I buy beyond the manufacturers bumper to bumper (which for most Europeans is 4yr/50K). You can add an extra year of coverage for about $600 to carry through the 5th year, which would be money well spent for the piece of mind it provides. As with any insurance, it's wasted money unless you need it. If I were keeping a car past the bumper to bumper (and used the car daily), the $600 seems like a pretty good deal (especially on a European).

Just my $.02, I could be wrong.

BTW, Paying cash for the car makes the most sense. Doc fees can be negotiated (raise your trade value or reduce the new car price by about that amount). On paper you still show as paying, in reality it's only on paper.
 
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