did i mention that i hate DBW throttle?

2274 Views 27 Replies 8 Participants Last post by nate, May 6, 2002

blackdawg

Discussion Starter · May 4, 2002

roaring into lab today at 7am...i realize again the beauty of mechanical throttle linkages.

it's so linear.

having spent the past two days in DBW cars, it's a relief to drive something where i am plugged into the car.

the new M3 has snappy throttle response, but the non M cars are so disjointed. it speaks to the general excellence of BMW that their bread n butter cars still outperform their peers with this sucky-arsed feedback in the 330s and 325s (even with software tweaking).

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G

· #2 · May 4, 2002

blackdawg said:
roaring into lab today at 7am...i realize again the beauty of mechanical throttle linkages.

it's so linear.

having spent the past two days in DBW cars, it's a relief to drive something where i am plugged into the car.

the new M3 has snappy throttle response, but the non M cars are so disjointed. it speaks to the general excellence of BMW that their bread n butter cars still outperform their peers with this sucky-arsed feedback in the 330s and 325s (even with software tweaking).

What I've been wondering lately is what forced BMW to intorduce the DBW throttle in it's current highly-flawed state. I mean, BMW, at least from an engineering side, hasn't really previously screwed up. But for '01 we get both the hyper-boosted steering and the DBW throttle, two certifiable goofs. Did they just think that enthusiasts no longer bought BMWs and the badge buyers would never notice? Because you do not have to be an extreme enthusiast to hate the DBW throttle or crappy steering (and the retrofit sucks too, just in a different way).

Supposedly the steering was "fixed" for '02 but they turned around and made the '02s hideously ugly, so they're still not an option.

JPinTO

· #3 · May 4, 2002

BMW design & engineering are obviously going through an identity crisis. Perhaps it's the incredible growth they've experienced that has them running very thin in those departments. The superstars (design & engineering) perhaps get upset and leave when small niche companies grow wildly into large corporations.

blackdawg

Discussion Starter · #4 · May 4, 2002

reasons why DBW?

i think the DBW is audi, bmw, and porsche (at least, don't care about the scandinavian reasons) has to do with all of the DSC/PSM stuff.

pretty sure they cannot implement DSC without a DBW throttle for whatever reason.

they sure can do ASC+T (which is more than fine for my driving purposes) with mechanical throttle linkages, though.

nate

· #5 · May 4, 2002

Re: reasons why DBW?

blackdawg said:
i think the DBW is audi, bmw, and porsche (at least, don't care about the scandinavian reasons) has to do with all of the DSC/PSM stuff.

pretty sure they cannot implement DSC without a DBW throttle for whatever reason.

they sure can do ASC+T (which is more than fine for my driving purposes) with mechanical throttle linkages, though.

My car has mechanical throttle and DSC. :dunno: DSC might be cheaper with DBW though, because the engine can be restrained electronically, rather than using a mechanical linkage.

DBW helps fuel economy, very important with CAFE standards. Also, new engine technologies need DBW, such as VALVETRONIC and the M5s individual throttle butterflies. Mabye DBW was put on the 325/330s in an ancicipation to VALVETRONIC :dunno:

KP

· #6 · May 4, 2002

well it looks as though brake by wire isn't supposed to be a disappointment:dunno: .

G

· #7 · May 4, 2002

IMO, the DBW throttle foreshadows a coming day when BMW hopes to only have to offer a single tranny per model, some variant of SMG. I honestly think the true manual tranny's days are numbered at BMW.

The DBW throttle works very poorly with a human controlled clutch. The reason step drivers don't complain about the DBW throttle is that they don't use a clutch. A computer controlled clutch is obviously going to be able to work with a computer controled throttle much better than a manual either will work with a computer controlled other. You pretty much have to have BOTH be manual or BOTH be computer-controlled. But a manual clutch with a computer throttle SUCKS.

But mark my words, the last manual tranny is coming and it'll be within the next decade, exact timing depending on the timing of platform evolutions. I suspect the new 1/2-series will be the last platform offered with a true manual (the new 5-er will already be out w/ a true manual option at that time) but every new platform after that I suspect will be SMG-only.

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KP

· #8 · May 4, 2002

TD said:
But mark my words, the last manual tranny is coming and it'll be within the next decade, exact timing depending on the timing of platform evolutions. I suspect the new 1/2-series will be the last platform offered with a true manual (the new 5-er will already be out w/ a true manual option at that time) but every new platform after that I suspect will be SMG-only.

I hope not. I like the idea of smg, but not that much

nate

· #9 · May 4, 2002

TD said:
IMO, the DBW throttle foreshadows a coming day when BMW hopes to only have to offer a single tranny per model, some variant of SMG. I honestly think the true manual tranny's days are numbered at BMW.

The DBW throttle works very poorly with a human controlled clutch. The reason step drivers don't complain about the DBW throttle is that they don't use a clutch. A computer controlled clutch is obviously going to be able to work with a computer controled throttle much better than a manual either will work with a computer controlled other. You pretty much have to have BOTH be manual or BOTH be computer-controlled. But a manual clutch with a computer throttle SUCKS.

But mark my words, the last manual tranny is coming and it'll be within the next decade, exact timing depending on the timing of platform evolutions. I suspect the new 1/2-series will be the last platform offered with a true manual (the new 5-er will already be out w/ a true manual option at that time) but every new platform after that I suspect will be SMG-only.

Since SMG uses a clutch, maybe we could have a clutch sometimes computer controlled and sometimes human controlled. :dunno:

As I have said, DBW isn't a big deal to me or most people. I'll give DBW track impressons the fist week of June. :angel:

blackdawg

Discussion Starter · #10 · May 4, 2002

just waiting for long term reports on SMG.

i know from a local ferrari owners that the F1 system in the prancing horses eat clutches.

am curious, since clutches are a wear and tear item, to see (1) how long they last under SMG normal usage (i.e. aggressive M drivers) and (2) how they're covered.

it's too beautiful to heel and toe just for the pure joy of doing it for one's self for me to ever buy an SMG equipped car. maybe when i'm good enough to be an SCCA racer i can then say i need SMG.

ha!

ALEX325i

· #11 · May 6, 2002

nate328Ci said:
Since SMG uses a clutch, maybe we could have a clutch sometimes computer controlled and sometimes human controlled. :dunno:

As I have said, DBW isn't a big deal to me or most people. I'll give DBW track impressons the fist week of June. :angel:

I have DBW throttle and "human controlled" clutch on my cars and have ZERO problems with the combo...

SteveMD

· #12 · May 6, 2002

Add me to the list that sold '01 330i, got E36 M3

While the 330i 5spd Sport I sold had God's own brakes, I found the controls markedly unlinear (except for the excellent trans and aforementioned killer brakes). So, I bought a '98 M3 sedan. After a year I sold this excellent car. Didn't take long for E36 M3 withdrawal symptoms to set in so I bought another one 2 weeks ago (yes, another sedan)

G

· #13 · May 6, 2002

Re: Add me to the list that sold '01 330i, got E36 M3

SteveMD said:
While the 330i 5spd Sport I sold had God's own brakes, I found the controls markedly unlinear (except for the excellent trans and aforementioned killer brakes). So, I bought a '98 M3 sedan. After a year I sold this excellent car. Didn't take long for E36 M3 withdrawal symptoms to set in so I bought another one 2 weeks ago (yes, another sedan)

Actually Steve, you are the charter member of the Ex-330i E36 M3 Club. You were first. We got our 330is within days of each other but you bagged on yours a good, what, 6-8 months before I did (I don't remember exactly when but I know it was significantly earlier).

Do you still have those pics of the two 330is together over at Congressional?

And, yeah, the brakes were impressive.

SteveMD

· #14 · May 6, 2002

Re: Re: Add me to the list that sold '01 330i, got E36 M3

TD said:
Do you still have those pics of the two 330is together over at Congressional?

I might. Let me check at home. How many posts does one have to make before you can attach pix to sig? Or do I need to RTFonlineM?

G

· #15 · May 6, 2002

Re: Re: Re: Add me to the list that sold '01 330i, got E36 M3

SteveMD said:
I might. Let me check at home. How many posts does one have to make before you can attach pix to sig? Or do I need to RTFonlineM?

Yes.

You can use the same image tags you use in posts to put an image in your sig.

Take out the underscores in the following, and you have the proper format. Regular HTML works too.
[img_]http://www.yourURL.com/image.jpg[/IMG_]

blackdawg

Discussion Starter · #16 · May 6, 2002

TD: car comparison?

hey!

i just noticed you also have a 323ci....how does that compare dynamically to the e36m3? you must have a good feel for rigidity and handling.

the wife's 325xiT is....well....i used to think it was a pig. now i think it's more of a lean pig. the engine really, once it's spooled up, is a great little thing. i always marvel at it when i get to drive it, especially on the highway.

when you consider most new 2002 altimas have a 2.5litre 4cylinder as the more prevalent engine, the subaru steady is the 2.5litre boxer 4, it's amazing how zippy the little 2.5 litre inline 6 is.

anyhow, i still hate the goddamn drive by wire throttle. i finally figured out how to properly heel toe the car but it's far from a fluent exercise as it tends to be in the mechanical throttle cars.

in_d_haus

· #17 · May 6, 2002

TD said:
snip...

But mark my words, the last manual tranny is coming and it'll be within the next decade, exact timing depending on the timing of platform evolutions. I suspect the new 1/2-series will be the last platform offered with a true manual (the new 5-er will already be out w/ a true manual option at that time) but every new platform after that I suspect will be SMG-only.

TD,
I think you are on the mark but not exactly. I think these "advancements" are more of a way to start controling our driving behavior. I think SMG is a way to wean us of a standard and that the slushie is going to be the only tranny available. It and the DBW allows the manufacturer to control how we drive in terms of milage and even speed. These in combination allow them to really dictate what we do with the car.

My guess is that ALL cars will eventually be automatic.
Haus

G

· #18 · May 6, 2002

Re: TD: car comparison?

blackdawg said:
hey!

i just noticed you also have a 323ci....how does that compare dynamically to the e36m3? you must have a good feel for rigidity and handling.

the wife's 325xiT is....well....i used to think it was a pig. now i think it's more of a lean pig. the engine really, once it's spooled up, is a great little thing. i always marvel at it when i get to drive it, especially on the highway.

when you consider most new 2002 altimas have a 2.5litre 4cylinder as the more prevalent engine, the subaru steady is the 2.5litre boxer 4, it's amazing how zippy the little 2.5 litre inline 6 is.

anyhow, i still hate the goddamn drive by wire throttle. i finally figured out how to properly heel toe the car but it's far from a fluent exercise as it tends to be in the mechanical throttle cars.

Invert those letters. It's a '99 323iC (as in E36 convertible). The engine is very similar, though. The E36s had the M52 while the E46s had the M52TU. Still, it has nice power (I drove it in this morning) and is very very smooth (compared to the M engine). Compared to the M3 (a sedan), the convertible is very flexible. Cowl-shake is bad. But it's so fun to drive with the top down that you easily dismiss it.

(I know, not the comparison you were looking for, but...)

ALEX325i

· #19 · May 6, 2002

Re: TD: car comparison?

blackdawg said:
hey!

i just noticed you also have a 323ci....how does that compare dynamically to the e36m3? you must have a good feel for rigidity and handling.

the wife's 325xiT is....well....i used to think it was a pig. now i think it's more of a lean pig. the engine really, once it's spooled up, is a great little thing. i always marvel at it when i get to drive it, especially on the highway.

when you consider most new 2002 altimas have a 2.5litre 4cylinder as the more prevalent engine, the subaru steady is the 2.5litre boxer 4, it's amazing how zippy the little 2.5 litre inline 6 is.

anyhow, i still hate the goddamn drive by wire throttle. i finally figured out how to properly heel toe the car but it's far from a fluent exercise as it tends to be in the mechanical throttle cars.

I agree Blackdawg...

Every time I take my 325i on a trip to the Keys or Miami (I'd rather drive from Tampa when I fly overseas - don't like the Tampa - Miami - Tampa take a chance airlines flights), I think to myself: who needs more? I mean, we're talking about a zippy little car that will do 120Mph all day... :thumb:

nate

· #20 · May 6, 2002

Re: TD: car comparison?

blackdawg said:
hey!

i just noticed you also have a 323ci....how does that compare dynamically to the e36m3? you must have a good feel for rigidity and handling.

I believe JST used to have a 323Ci....

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