Easy PEASY M50 ICV (Idle Control Valve) cleaning
How happy art thou if thou dost not have an M50 engine. If thou hast an M20, M30 or M60 engine, how happy art thou ! Thy ICV is within easy access, can be removed AND replaced within 3 minutes (with a little practise), and without damaging anything in the process, and on a hot engine without any risk of burns, to boot.
An ICV that is removed can be nicely cleaned out within 5 minutes, with just carburetor cleaner, contact cleaner, brakleen, ethanol, gasoline, or any other organic solvent, sprayed in and shaken in a wrist twisting motion back and forth for 2 minutes, drained out, then hit with a little WD40 to lubricate the valve inside, shaken out, drained out, and then reinstalled and reconnected with all hoses tightened securely. And its clean !!
With an M50 engine, thou must transform into that wisest of all of God's creatures, the serpent, snake one's arm under the intake manifold and throttle body, nudge out the ICV's connector, then the ICV from under its securing plate, lean over and grunt, with the horror of working with a hot engine, and....and...I can't continue it is too awful.
Enter Roberto. A beautiful way to clean the M50's ICV has been created. A beautiful way indeed. Quick, simple effective and takes around 10-15 minutes.
I can't see what I'm typing. Please give me a moment to dry my eyes, and sigh.
============================
M50 ICV cleaning (on-engine)
Look at the big curved intake boot connected to the throttle body. It has a big hose on its bottom right (roughly directly under the tps) that snakes under the intake manifold. This hose connects to the one of the ICV's two ports (the other hose looks like a question mark and connects to the intake manifold from directly behind the throttle body).
This hose is the key to this method.
Here are the steps.
1. Run the engine at idle.
2. Pull the FP fuse while the engine is running and let it die.
3. Try to start the engine for 5 seconds after that. Stop when the engine cannot start. The rail is depressurised now.
4. Yank the hose mentioned earlier from the air intake boot.
5. Hit it with a 10 second burst of carburetor cleaner. It will pool inside and coat the ICV valve with itself.
6. Use your mouth and blow into the hose to ensure the pooled carb cleaner goes all the way into the icv. Leave the hose angled upwards.
7. Get into the car. Switch to key2. Come out and blow into the hose once again to recoat the icv in the on position. Leave the hose angled upwards and get back into the car.
8. Switch between Key0 and Key2 30 times slowly but without pausing in between switches. Key2 switches the ICV on and activates its internal valve and spins it one way. Key0 deactivates it and spins it the other way. Thus you get a total of 30 cycles or 60 spins with this method.
9. Angle the hose downwards. The excess carb cleaner should flow out, and it should be black. That's how you know you have got a good clean out of this.
10. Key2 the ignition and blow deeply and strongly into the hose with your mouth. Then angle the hose back down again as best as you can and let more fluid flow out.
11. Hit the hose inside with a 2 second burst of WD40. Blow hard.
12. Reconnect the hose. Make sure its secure.
[If it goes in too easily, wrap some pipe/pvc tape around it first. Use your fingers to check the hole the hose fits into for cracks. Use high temp silicone non gasket sealant, or replace the boot entirely, if cracks are found or suspected. ]
13. Remove the main relay or unplug the DME. We need to kill spark.
14. Key0 and Key2 the ignition 10 times to let the WD40 coat the ICV's internal valve good.
15. Ventilate the chambers for 10 seconds. This will purge most of the carb cleaner fumes from the intake manifold.
[ Combustion chambers are ventilated by depressurising the fuel rail, holding the throttle wide open, and cranking the engine fast twice in 5 second bursts with a 5 second interval in between ]
16. Reinstall the main relay.
17. Attempt to start the engine. If it starts, let it die naturally.
18. Reinstall the FP fuse.
19. Prime the fuel rail (i.e key2 the ignition for 3 seconds), then start the engine.
20. Let it run, and feather the throttle for a few seconds if need be.
21. After the idle has stabilised, flick the throttle several times. Confirm normal behaviour. The tach needle should quickly but gently settle to its normal idle rpm (this depends on engine temperature) without bouncing down and up to it.
There might be black smoke out the tailpipe for 30-60 seconds. That's fine. Let it play out. Any excess carb cleaner and wd40 will vent out naturally.
I know that looks like a long series of actions - 21 steps. However, when you are smooth with it, it takes under 15 minutes end to end. You don't need to remove the icv and reinstall it. You get it almost as clean as you would if you cleaned it manually. And it can be done easily, every 6-12 months, as part of your DIY maintenance regime, or as part of your DIY troubleshooting sequence if you have potential ICV issues.
If you fail to vent the chambers with the ignition system disabled, you will get a very strong loud scary smokey backfire when you first crank the engine. Unless you think this is way cool, depressurise the rail, disable the ignition system, and vent the chambers first.
Or just follow these 22 steps religiously. If you understand what you're doing conceptually, it won't be a chore. If not just print out and follow the steps without fail.
=========================
The ICV gets dirty because it is also exposed to and coated with alot of oil vapour-laden air from the CCV system. The valve inside is made of metal, which gets hotter, and causes sludge to form on it more easily when the engine is shut down. As this sludge builds up (over 6-12 months), it interferes with the smooth oscillation of the internal ICV valve. This manifests as an imperfect idle, and can sometimes be a pretty rough idle and other ICV symptomes such as a bouncing idle, jerky throttle flicks, etc.
===========================
Everyone with an M50 engine is invited to try this and to improve on the above listed steps in any significant way.
After you have finished sighing with profound joy, that is.
It is such a simple method that even a noob can do this without much difficulty and without turning it into a skill of some sort, and without any significant safety risk.
And no, there is not even the slightest risk of hydro locking etc if you follow all the steps in the correct sequence. Blow a lot of air through the hose after draining it down. Or you can do this on a hot engine, which causes carb cleaner to vapourise more quickly, if you are really concerned.
MMJ
An ICV that is removed can be nicely cleaned out within 5 minutes, with just carburetor cleaner, contact cleaner, brakleen, ethanol, gasoline, or any other organic solvent, sprayed in and shaken in a wrist twisting motion back and forth for 2 minutes, drained out, then hit with a little WD40 to lubricate the valve inside, shaken out, drained out, and then reinstalled and reconnected with all hoses tightened securely. And its clean !!
With an M50 engine, thou must transform into that wisest of all of God's creatures, the serpent, snake one's arm under the intake manifold and throttle body, nudge out the ICV's connector, then the ICV from under its securing plate, lean over and grunt, with the horror of working with a hot engine, and....and...I can't continue it is too awful.
Enter Roberto. A beautiful way to clean the M50's ICV has been created. A beautiful way indeed. Quick, simple effective and takes around 10-15 minutes.
I can't see what I'm typing. Please give me a moment to dry my eyes, and sigh.
============================
M50 ICV cleaning (on-engine)
Look at the big curved intake boot connected to the throttle body. It has a big hose on its bottom right (roughly directly under the tps) that snakes under the intake manifold. This hose connects to the one of the ICV's two ports (the other hose looks like a question mark and connects to the intake manifold from directly behind the throttle body).
This hose is the key to this method.
Here are the steps.
1. Run the engine at idle.
2. Pull the FP fuse while the engine is running and let it die.
3. Try to start the engine for 5 seconds after that. Stop when the engine cannot start. The rail is depressurised now.
4. Yank the hose mentioned earlier from the air intake boot.
5. Hit it with a 10 second burst of carburetor cleaner. It will pool inside and coat the ICV valve with itself.
6. Use your mouth and blow into the hose to ensure the pooled carb cleaner goes all the way into the icv. Leave the hose angled upwards.
7. Get into the car. Switch to key2. Come out and blow into the hose once again to recoat the icv in the on position. Leave the hose angled upwards and get back into the car.
8. Switch between Key0 and Key2 30 times slowly but without pausing in between switches. Key2 switches the ICV on and activates its internal valve and spins it one way. Key0 deactivates it and spins it the other way. Thus you get a total of 30 cycles or 60 spins with this method.
9. Angle the hose downwards. The excess carb cleaner should flow out, and it should be black. That's how you know you have got a good clean out of this.
10. Key2 the ignition and blow deeply and strongly into the hose with your mouth. Then angle the hose back down again as best as you can and let more fluid flow out.
11. Hit the hose inside with a 2 second burst of WD40. Blow hard.
12. Reconnect the hose. Make sure its secure.
[If it goes in too easily, wrap some pipe/pvc tape around it first. Use your fingers to check the hole the hose fits into for cracks. Use high temp silicone non gasket sealant, or replace the boot entirely, if cracks are found or suspected. ]
13. Remove the main relay or unplug the DME. We need to kill spark.
14. Key0 and Key2 the ignition 10 times to let the WD40 coat the ICV's internal valve good.
15. Ventilate the chambers for 10 seconds. This will purge most of the carb cleaner fumes from the intake manifold.
[ Combustion chambers are ventilated by depressurising the fuel rail, holding the throttle wide open, and cranking the engine fast twice in 5 second bursts with a 5 second interval in between ]
16. Reinstall the main relay.
17. Attempt to start the engine. If it starts, let it die naturally.
18. Reinstall the FP fuse.
19. Prime the fuel rail (i.e key2 the ignition for 3 seconds), then start the engine.
20. Let it run, and feather the throttle for a few seconds if need be.
21. After the idle has stabilised, flick the throttle several times. Confirm normal behaviour. The tach needle should quickly but gently settle to its normal idle rpm (this depends on engine temperature) without bouncing down and up to it.
There might be black smoke out the tailpipe for 30-60 seconds. That's fine. Let it play out. Any excess carb cleaner and wd40 will vent out naturally.
I know that looks like a long series of actions - 21 steps. However, when you are smooth with it, it takes under 15 minutes end to end. You don't need to remove the icv and reinstall it. You get it almost as clean as you would if you cleaned it manually. And it can be done easily, every 6-12 months, as part of your DIY maintenance regime, or as part of your DIY troubleshooting sequence if you have potential ICV issues.
If you fail to vent the chambers with the ignition system disabled, you will get a very strong loud scary smokey backfire when you first crank the engine. Unless you think this is way cool, depressurise the rail, disable the ignition system, and vent the chambers first.
Or just follow these 22 steps religiously. If you understand what you're doing conceptually, it won't be a chore. If not just print out and follow the steps without fail.
=========================
The ICV gets dirty because it is also exposed to and coated with alot of oil vapour-laden air from the CCV system. The valve inside is made of metal, which gets hotter, and causes sludge to form on it more easily when the engine is shut down. As this sludge builds up (over 6-12 months), it interferes with the smooth oscillation of the internal ICV valve. This manifests as an imperfect idle, and can sometimes be a pretty rough idle and other ICV symptomes such as a bouncing idle, jerky throttle flicks, etc.
===========================
Everyone with an M50 engine is invited to try this and to improve on the above listed steps in any significant way.
After you have finished sighing with profound joy, that is.
It is such a simple method that even a noob can do this without much difficulty and without turning it into a skill of some sort, and without any significant safety risk.
And no, there is not even the slightest risk of hydro locking etc if you follow all the steps in the correct sequence. Blow a lot of air through the hose after draining it down. Or you can do this on a hot engine, which causes carb cleaner to vapourise more quickly, if you are really concerned.
MMJ
1 - 18 of 18 Posts
Given the religious nature of this post...from Denmark no less...
I was thinking of printing this out and putting 1 copy in my Bentley manual, and 1 copy is a Bible. I knoweth the snake arm method for that little ribbed hose that bends at a 90 degree angle and constantly falls off IF you don't have the little plastic hooter (sorry, don't know the exact name of that part), but the hooter has a little FLANGE that holds the hose tight. Problem is, this is often broken off and nobody knows it, and just jams the hose on, thinking it'll hold. WRONG, as I know, from having to jam the hose back on when it's blown off (and the motor is hot-hence references to Satan and snakes). THANKS BIG TIME for this right up. Very handy and very detailed.
The Lord will stuff a few more feathers in your pillow for your good works.
Regards,
Christen
I was thinking of printing this out and putting 1 copy in my Bentley manual, and 1 copy is a Bible. I knoweth the snake arm method for that little ribbed hose that bends at a 90 degree angle and constantly falls off IF you don't have the little plastic hooter (sorry, don't know the exact name of that part), but the hooter has a little FLANGE that holds the hose tight. Problem is, this is often broken off and nobody knows it, and just jams the hose on, thinking it'll hold. WRONG, as I know, from having to jam the hose back on when it's blown off (and the motor is hot-hence references to Satan and snakes). THANKS BIG TIME for this right up. Very handy and very detailed.
The Lord will stuff a few more feathers in your pillow for your good works.
Regards,
Christen
And, given I've got this problem now...
Will be trying this this weekend. Unless anyone else has a super suggestion about cleaning ICV's without dissassemblying the manifold.
Will be trying this this weekend. Unless anyone else has a super suggestion about cleaning ICV's without dissassemblying the manifold.
Easier method.
With car off...
Pull the ICV with the hoses attached. Remove the hoses and Spray ICV and inside hoses with carb cleaner or brake clean (I've used both successfully)
Take a small rag wipe out the crud in the hoses and the ICV(gently)
Reinstall everything.
Start car.
Done.
FYI to the reader(s):
Roberto's suggestion is ok but more extensive, some what unecessary and time consuming.
As well never was it suggested to remove or not to remove the intake manifold on a M50.
Which is one of the biggest obstacles in this job. For the ICV is inside the tunnel (area between the intake manifold and the block)
If you physically can't access the ICV without removing the intake manifold, remove the intake manifold.
That said as noted by the majority of the E34 community. Look for a second opinion when referencing one of Roberto's threads.
Carry On:thumbup:
With car off...
Pull the ICV with the hoses attached. Remove the hoses and Spray ICV and inside hoses with carb cleaner or brake clean (I've used both successfully)
Take a small rag wipe out the crud in the hoses and the ICV(gently)
Reinstall everything.
Start car.
Done.
FYI to the reader(s):
Roberto's suggestion is ok but more extensive, some what unecessary and time consuming.
As well never was it suggested to remove or not to remove the intake manifold on a M50.
Which is one of the biggest obstacles in this job. For the ICV is inside the tunnel (area between the intake manifold and the block)
If you physically can't access the ICV without removing the intake manifold, remove the intake manifold.
That said as noted by the majority of the E34 community. Look for a second opinion when referencing one of Roberto's threads.
Carry On:thumbup:
I actually performed the trick as suggested by our friend from Australia
It did not take that long...however, having a spare piece of hose made blowing the carb cleaner and WD-40 a whole lot easier. One thing to be aware of is when you are trying to drain the hose in a downward position toward the ground, you run the risk of disconnecting something else that you really can't see. I have had major major issues with that ribbed 90 degree bend hose coming loose from the manifold, and it's a problem with the broken flange on the small plastic part that keeps the hose connected to the manifold. This part is easily broken when someone starts yanking on components that they can't see (ie, someone changed the starter and broke the part and either didn't know it or just jammed the hose on and hoped for the best. It will eventually disconnect due to pressure and your car will run like a Mack truck with a disconnected cylinder at low speed. Working in the tunnel area is difficult unless you have small arms and hands, and trying to access from under the car is not much of a major improvement.
The part in question is Air Hose Connector with O-Ring - Intake Manifold to Idle Control Valve Hose found on Pelican's website. The flange I mention is the pointy plastic part on the top of the picture. Cost is $10.50 and buy it from them. I'll see if I can attach it.
But the procedure to clean the valve on the 21 point exam, so to speak, was very clear and detailed, and I learned a few thing I didn't know about the car (location of relays and main components). Just take your time especially removing hoses, and you shouldn't have a problem.
It did not take that long...however, having a spare piece of hose made blowing the carb cleaner and WD-40 a whole lot easier. One thing to be aware of is when you are trying to drain the hose in a downward position toward the ground, you run the risk of disconnecting something else that you really can't see. I have had major major issues with that ribbed 90 degree bend hose coming loose from the manifold, and it's a problem with the broken flange on the small plastic part that keeps the hose connected to the manifold. This part is easily broken when someone starts yanking on components that they can't see (ie, someone changed the starter and broke the part and either didn't know it or just jammed the hose on and hoped for the best. It will eventually disconnect due to pressure and your car will run like a Mack truck with a disconnected cylinder at low speed. Working in the tunnel area is difficult unless you have small arms and hands, and trying to access from under the car is not much of a major improvement.
The part in question is Air Hose Connector with O-Ring - Intake Manifold to Idle Control Valve Hose found on Pelican's website. The flange I mention is the pointy plastic part on the top of the picture. Cost is $10.50 and buy it from them. I'll see if I can attach it.
But the procedure to clean the valve on the 21 point exam, so to speak, was very clear and detailed, and I learned a few thing I didn't know about the car (location of relays and main components). Just take your time especially removing hoses, and you shouldn't have a problem.
Attachments
Not to be an Arsehole but that's what you get for not listening. :nono:
Again, I gave the warning. :spank:
The easiest way to do this is with the intake manifold off.
Now let's go over this 21 points of BS so this thread can die. As well let's have some fun. :thumbup:
I just did this service for I had a BNIB ICV that I was itching to throw in to debunk this thread
Now before I begin. This is a easy job. The most difficult part is the removal of the intake manifold. Difficult for two reasons.
1. To remove you have to remove other items such as air intake plumbing, fuel rail, vac lines and one sensor (maybe two) you get the idea.
2. The location of the ICV is under the intake manifold. It is very possible to break or snap something if the ICV is not removed correctly.
Note: Always have your bentley manual when performing services for the first time. This prevents costly mistakes.
1-3 is not necessary. :jack:
You can depressurize these cars with the car off.
How?!?:dunno:
Open the gas cap. Using a large handled screwdriver, insert the shaft into the hole.
Tank will depressurize without the 30 minutes of BS.
That's right, be a man, stick your shaft in the hole till the gases are released.:freakdanc:
Didn't your mother tell you to stop yanking it or it will break. Now you done broke it. and it won't go back in.:slap:
Wut, wait Really?!? hate to break this to you but physics is not on your side on this one.:thumbdwn:
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There you go. The bottom hose. That's the hose you've been blowing. :lmao:
The ICV does not create air flow to suck anything through it.
So all your doing is saturating the hose not the ICV. Yes it will buzz. It's supposed to stupid.:slap:
It's a valve not a motorized fan that has air pull strong enough to lift fluid.
It provides/ monitors the airflow by opening and closing. That's what is does. :slap:
I will not go any further. For the rest of this procedure is bogus, the PO is a fraud, and this thread really needs to be killed.
NOW CHILDREN:drive:
If you want to truely clean your ICV you must pull the ICV from it's location.
To do so you have to remove the intake manifold and other associated parts to get it out.
There is no short cut to this. It's simple enough.
Now once removed you can take a q tip and some cleaner and clean the ICV correctly.:thumbup:
Your Bentley manual will teach you how to remove the intake manifold on a M50.
End thread and be gone Roberto Arse of Men.
For your wisdom is only rivaled by the stupidity it creates.:loco:
Again, I gave the warning. :spank:
The easiest way to do this is with the intake manifold off.
Now let's go over this 21 points of BS so this thread can die. As well let's have some fun. :thumbup:
I just did this service for I had a BNIB ICV that I was itching to throw in to debunk this thread
Now before I begin. This is a easy job. The most difficult part is the removal of the intake manifold. Difficult for two reasons.
1. To remove you have to remove other items such as air intake plumbing, fuel rail, vac lines and one sensor (maybe two) you get the idea.
2. The location of the ICV is under the intake manifold. It is very possible to break or snap something if the ICV is not removed correctly.
Note: Always have your bentley manual when performing services for the first time. This prevents costly mistakes.
1-3 is not necessary. :jack:
You can depressurize these cars with the car off.
How?!?:dunno:
Open the gas cap. Using a large handled screwdriver, insert the shaft into the hole.
Tank will depressurize without the 30 minutes of BS.
That's right, be a man, stick your shaft in the hole till the gases are released.:freakdanc:
The reason ya broke it is because you yanked it.:slap:
Didn't your mother tell you to stop yanking it or it will break. Now you done broke it. and it won't go back in.:slap:
Wut, wait Really?!? hate to break this to you but physics is not on your side on this one.:thumbdwn:
There you go. The bottom hose. That's the hose you've been blowing. :lmao:
The ICV does not create air flow to suck anything through it.
So all your doing is saturating the hose not the ICV. Yes it will buzz. It's supposed to stupid.:slap:
It's a valve not a motorized fan that has air pull strong enough to lift fluid.
It provides/ monitors the airflow by opening and closing. That's what is does. :slap:
I will not go any further. For the rest of this procedure is bogus, the PO is a fraud, and this thread really needs to be killed.
NOW CHILDREN:drive:
If you want to truely clean your ICV you must pull the ICV from it's location.
To do so you have to remove the intake manifold and other associated parts to get it out.
There is no short cut to this. It's simple enough.
Now once removed you can take a q tip and some cleaner and clean the ICV correctly.:thumbup:
Your Bentley manual will teach you how to remove the intake manifold on a M50.
End thread and be gone Roberto Arse of Men.
For your wisdom is only rivaled by the stupidity it creates.:loco:
The post was by Mamij...unless he moved to Denmark...
and changed his name.
As for being an arse, well, the last thing this WORLD needs is two Jersey boys arguing over something, without regard that Jersey boys love to argue about anything...201 vs 609, Yankees, Mets...whether the Dodgers should have left Brooklyn or not and the best place for a pizza...and you know, a real pizza, not one of these corporate Frisbees.
The idea behind the 21 point cleaning was it was purported to be FAST and EASY, and I was trying to clear up a rough idle. Anyone with an M50 engine knows the ICV valve is almost impossible to service properly WITHOUT taking off the manifold. I get that. In one of the sentences you wrote, you said it was easy, followed later by two sentences that used the word "difficult". I can do easy, the difficult takes slightly...well, who's kidding who, a whole lot longer. I've pulled manifolds and sometimes, lo and behold, getting them back on and sealing properly tends to make me wish I never started (and lets not talk about breaking a stud removing it from the old '66 Plymouth--in winter, of course)
There are threads about whether you need to remove the manifold to change the starter, and 60 responses to the thread left me with the feeling of..."it depends".
One thing you didn't mention is whether you need a gasket set once you crack open the intake. I assume you do, so there's an additional expense that you may or may not need IF the 21 point cleaning works. The only thing I didn't fully understand was the use of "WD-40", as it's known as "Water Dispersing compound #40". Supposed to displace carb cleaner, which would normally evaporate or burn off, or erroneously thought to be a lubricant, which we all agree it is not. Just look on the can, and you'll not see lubricant. WD-40 made a great lubricant called "TAL-5", but it never made it commercially as a success. I was lucky to have a rep drop off some samples and it was great stuff, but in the same "you lose the red straw" and people just hate you.
I've seen a Roberto post here and there, and it this was his originally, then I get your drift.
I've still got this low grade rough idle which sometimes trips the CEL, and I've changed the MAF, TPS, and tried cleaning the ICV. I've changed the O2 sensor, but used a Denso, figuring that would be just fine, since I've Denso components elsewhere (think AC compressor, when I upgraded the 1991 to 1994 R-134 standards.
The last time EVERYTHING on a car was easily accessible was on the 1959 Ford, whose front hood was hinged in the front. Or, as the recipient of a Medicare card, maybe I'm mistaken.
All thoughts are appreciated, and yes, if I can't fix this, I'll tear down the compartment to remove the manifold to try and find an elusive vacuum leak. It's gotta be something.
Best regards
C.
and changed his name.
As for being an arse, well, the last thing this WORLD needs is two Jersey boys arguing over something, without regard that Jersey boys love to argue about anything...201 vs 609, Yankees, Mets...whether the Dodgers should have left Brooklyn or not and the best place for a pizza...and you know, a real pizza, not one of these corporate Frisbees.
The idea behind the 21 point cleaning was it was purported to be FAST and EASY, and I was trying to clear up a rough idle. Anyone with an M50 engine knows the ICV valve is almost impossible to service properly WITHOUT taking off the manifold. I get that. In one of the sentences you wrote, you said it was easy, followed later by two sentences that used the word "difficult". I can do easy, the difficult takes slightly...well, who's kidding who, a whole lot longer. I've pulled manifolds and sometimes, lo and behold, getting them back on and sealing properly tends to make me wish I never started (and lets not talk about breaking a stud removing it from the old '66 Plymouth--in winter, of course)
There are threads about whether you need to remove the manifold to change the starter, and 60 responses to the thread left me with the feeling of..."it depends".
One thing you didn't mention is whether you need a gasket set once you crack open the intake. I assume you do, so there's an additional expense that you may or may not need IF the 21 point cleaning works. The only thing I didn't fully understand was the use of "WD-40", as it's known as "Water Dispersing compound #40". Supposed to displace carb cleaner, which would normally evaporate or burn off, or erroneously thought to be a lubricant, which we all agree it is not. Just look on the can, and you'll not see lubricant. WD-40 made a great lubricant called "TAL-5", but it never made it commercially as a success. I was lucky to have a rep drop off some samples and it was great stuff, but in the same "you lose the red straw" and people just hate you.
I've seen a Roberto post here and there, and it this was his originally, then I get your drift.
I've still got this low grade rough idle which sometimes trips the CEL, and I've changed the MAF, TPS, and tried cleaning the ICV. I've changed the O2 sensor, but used a Denso, figuring that would be just fine, since I've Denso components elsewhere (think AC compressor, when I upgraded the 1991 to 1994 R-134 standards.
The last time EVERYTHING on a car was easily accessible was on the 1959 Ford, whose front hood was hinged in the front. Or, as the recipient of a Medicare card, maybe I'm mistaken.
All thoughts are appreciated, and yes, if I can't fix this, I'll tear down the compartment to remove the manifold to try and find an elusive vacuum leak. It's gotta be something.
Best regards
C.
201
86 Mets Best team money didn't buy, Yankees best team money can buy
Nope shouldn't have left Brooklyn
Pizza.... The only bad part of that arguement is there are few real italian pizza places left.
But locally for me Stefanos has the best pizza. Federici's used to be good. Now it's just ok.
You forgot Shore vs Turnpike people.
You understand I'm making light of it all. So I'm not bashing what you did or saying what I did was better. However what I've learned about these cars and this job specifically. There's no short cut. You have to pull the ICV to clean it.
To cut to the chase here's all the components you have to remove to pull the intake manifold.
It will sound like a lot. But it's not. I will even tell you what tools you'll need.
You'll only need a 2 flat head screw drivers (one with a large handle),
10mm and 13mm sockets (deep sockets or have a short extension) ,
10mm open/closed end wrench, and a rag.
You will remove:
Depressurize system large handled screwdriver in gas nozzle wait a few minutes afterward leave screwdriver in till done with job.
Remove the Vac hose at the intake manifold. Its toward the firewall under the intake manifold
intake plumbing (flat head screwdriver)
throttle body (10mm socket)
Fuel Rail vanity cover (10mm socket)
You can remove the valve cover vanity to make it easier to lift the fuel rail for the harness
box should lift with the fuel rail (I'll get to that) which will lift the coil wiring. (you'll see what I mean)
2 lower brackets that connect to the intake manifold one at the dipstick, one by the throttlecables (10mm socket)
Fuel Rail remove hose from front part of fuel rail, use rag to soak up remaining gas.
The fuel line runs under the tunnel. There is a clip it snaps into which is on the underside of the intake runners. You can pop the line off of it.
Two 10mm screws hold the fuel rail. Gently lift rail to release injectors and to give clearance for the intake manifold
Remove the IAT sensor connection It's right next to the vac line.
Unbolt the Intake manifold (10mm-13mm socket w/extension) I can't remember which but this isn't hard.
Lift manifold off block.
From there you'll see the ICV and you can remove and clean.
Reinstall is the reverse.
For at least you eliminate a few possible culprits of bad/rough idle.
When I bought my e34 with the s52 swap. I changed damn near every seal, hose and pulley.
I wanted to get the car to day one spec.
Mainly due to the fact I bought someone's project and wasn't clear and not trusting everything was done.
Now that I got the ICV out the way Immediately noticed the difference in idle.
Being you sound as if your roots are in the early muscle car era I will share something.
The interesting thing about the m5x/s5x is it's more intimidating than actually being difficult to work on.
Once you get past that. You'll soon realize it's no more difficult than a "shakey two" 62 Nova or chevy 6 in a 86 cavalier (yeah I said it... a Cavalier)
Now when you get to the later model engines ie m60 variants all the way to the N series engines. They can get more cramped and complicated due to more electronics and less space.
If you need more help just pm me. Alway willing to help another Vanco/Jersey person.
Come to think of it.... my father is in courtenany, my buddy Richie is in Victoria (but I think he's one the Island now),And IIRC my friend Ken is outside of Comox. So welcome to the Dual residency club.
BTW Roberto and Mamji have been found to be one in the same. However that's another story to be had.
86 Mets Best team money didn't buy, Yankees best team money can buy
Nope shouldn't have left Brooklyn
Pizza.... The only bad part of that arguement is there are few real italian pizza places left.
But locally for me Stefanos has the best pizza. Federici's used to be good. Now it's just ok.
You forgot Shore vs Turnpike people.
You understand I'm making light of it all. So I'm not bashing what you did or saying what I did was better. However what I've learned about these cars and this job specifically. There's no short cut. You have to pull the ICV to clean it.
Understood. There are more complicated jobs than ICV cleaning. The simplicity is dependant on your skill set. From your statement, I gather you've turned more than a few wrenches in your time. So to that effect. This is should be a walk in the park for you.
It wouldn't hurt to change the intake gaskets if you've never changed them. But no it's not necessary. They are not expensive whatsoever so it's very do-able.
To cut to the chase here's all the components you have to remove to pull the intake manifold.
It will sound like a lot. But it's not. I will even tell you what tools you'll need.
You'll only need a 2 flat head screw drivers (one with a large handle),
10mm and 13mm sockets (deep sockets or have a short extension) ,
10mm open/closed end wrench, and a rag.
You will remove:
Depressurize system large handled screwdriver in gas nozzle wait a few minutes afterward leave screwdriver in till done with job.
Remove the Vac hose at the intake manifold. Its toward the firewall under the intake manifold
intake plumbing (flat head screwdriver)
throttle body (10mm socket)
Fuel Rail vanity cover (10mm socket)
You can remove the valve cover vanity to make it easier to lift the fuel rail for the harness
box should lift with the fuel rail (I'll get to that) which will lift the coil wiring. (you'll see what I mean)
2 lower brackets that connect to the intake manifold one at the dipstick, one by the throttlecables (10mm socket)
Fuel Rail remove hose from front part of fuel rail, use rag to soak up remaining gas.
The fuel line runs under the tunnel. There is a clip it snaps into which is on the underside of the intake runners. You can pop the line off of it.
Two 10mm screws hold the fuel rail. Gently lift rail to release injectors and to give clearance for the intake manifold
Remove the IAT sensor connection It's right next to the vac line.
Unbolt the Intake manifold (10mm-13mm socket w/extension) I can't remember which but this isn't hard.
Lift manifold off block.
From there you'll see the ICV and you can remove and clean.
Reinstall is the reverse.
That's understandable. Which is why it may not be a bad idea to replace the seals anyway.
For at least you eliminate a few possible culprits of bad/rough idle.
When I bought my e34 with the s52 swap. I changed damn near every seal, hose and pulley.
I wanted to get the car to day one spec.
Mainly due to the fact I bought someone's project and wasn't clear and not trusting everything was done.
Now that I got the ICV out the way Immediately noticed the difference in idle.
Being you sound as if your roots are in the early muscle car era I will share something.
The interesting thing about the m5x/s5x is it's more intimidating than actually being difficult to work on.
Once you get past that. You'll soon realize it's no more difficult than a "shakey two" 62 Nova or chevy 6 in a 86 cavalier (yeah I said it... a Cavalier)
Now when you get to the later model engines ie m60 variants all the way to the N series engines. They can get more cramped and complicated due to more electronics and less space.
If you need more help just pm me. Alway willing to help another Vanco/Jersey person.
Come to think of it.... my father is in courtenany, my buddy Richie is in Victoria (but I think he's one the Island now),And IIRC my friend Ken is outside of Comox. So welcome to the Dual residency club.
BTW Roberto and Mamji have been found to be one in the same. However that's another story to be had.
Shoot, I remember when people flew to Denmark to have "the operation"
Something for you to Google. One day I'll tell the story of Robert in the spring semester and Roberta in the fall semester at Univ of Texas at San Antonio. See above reference.
Sometimes you're born at the intersection of Rts. 1 & 9, and some times you castigate your parents for NOT buying that bungalow on the causeway to LBI for $2,875.00, guaranteeing those hardy souls flying over the Pulaski Skyway (8th Wonder of the World--no joke) a permanent shore experience for their kids. But noooooo...he just had to buy that '54 Buick.
Now that's a good post and good write up on pulling a manifold, something I haven't tried. Once the manifold is off, anything you think is a "must replace" item, so you don't have to do it again?
My brother still has his Bell Ford '69 Mach 1 in the garage. Bought it with his savings from doing his duty in Vietnam. Faces Detroit each and every morning and kicks himself in the fanny for not buying the CobraJet 428 RamAir model (plus air conditioning). You live, you learn. But that would have set him back more than 4K!
But seriously, great post on the manifold. More detail is always better than less.
Christen
PS...1969 Mets. Who'd have thunk it that they'd will the World Series. Now that was truly Amazin'
Something for you to Google. One day I'll tell the story of Robert in the spring semester and Roberta in the fall semester at Univ of Texas at San Antonio. See above reference.
Sometimes you're born at the intersection of Rts. 1 & 9, and some times you castigate your parents for NOT buying that bungalow on the causeway to LBI for $2,875.00, guaranteeing those hardy souls flying over the Pulaski Skyway (8th Wonder of the World--no joke) a permanent shore experience for their kids. But noooooo...he just had to buy that '54 Buick.
Now that's a good post and good write up on pulling a manifold, something I haven't tried. Once the manifold is off, anything you think is a "must replace" item, so you don't have to do it again?
My brother still has his Bell Ford '69 Mach 1 in the garage. Bought it with his savings from doing his duty in Vietnam. Faces Detroit each and every morning and kicks himself in the fanny for not buying the CobraJet 428 RamAir model (plus air conditioning). You live, you learn. But that would have set him back more than 4K!
But seriously, great post on the manifold. More detail is always better than less.
Christen
PS...1969 Mets. Who'd have thunk it that they'd will the World Series. Now that was truly Amazin'
Wait a second...Victoria, Courtenay, Comox...I had to Google all that. Since I'm from Vancouver, Washington (also called "Vansterdam" since we now have legal marihuana), on the mighty Columbia River across the border from the People's Republic of Oregon, I'm distressed to find that the Canadians saw fit to rip off our fine name and put it in a dinky place called Vancouver, British Columbia. I have to read the papers once in awhile. Go figure!
No nothing needed but still good idea to check everything while it's off.
The Vac and icv hoses are the biggest culprits for rough idle other than failing gaskets.
Unfortunately these are issues that stretch across the chassis model.
Obviously most of it depends on the prior servicing if it's a multiple owner car.
However for the most part the resolves for rough idle revolve around air,fuel, spark and the associated parts.
69 Mets before my time but yes well oil machine in a crunch.
Speaking of the monstrosity.
The Pulaski Skyway is gotten another notch under it's belt now.
Now known as the biggest traffic anomaly since Chris Christie and BridgeGate.
Its been shutdown off and on for almost a year for repairs and causing miles of traffic which is projected to last into next year till finished.
Insult to injury, they finally were going to pass a bill to allow the public to pump their own gas.
But of course, Senator Sweeney the weenie won't pass it.
So we continue to live in the pompous stone age of spoiled princesses and spikey haired punks who don't know how to pump their own gas,
yet will rattle off obscenities like a Ar15 Bushmaster if their caramel macchiato doesn't have enough cream.
But that's Jersey for you.
Chris Christie for President.... Fuhgeddaboudit!
Chris Christie for Italian Subs... Now your talking.
The Vac and icv hoses are the biggest culprits for rough idle other than failing gaskets.
Unfortunately these are issues that stretch across the chassis model.
Obviously most of it depends on the prior servicing if it's a multiple owner car.
However for the most part the resolves for rough idle revolve around air,fuel, spark and the associated parts.
69 Mets before my time but yes well oil machine in a crunch.
Speaking of the monstrosity.
The Pulaski Skyway is gotten another notch under it's belt now.
Now known as the biggest traffic anomaly since Chris Christie and BridgeGate.
Its been shutdown off and on for almost a year for repairs and causing miles of traffic which is projected to last into next year till finished.
Insult to injury, they finally were going to pass a bill to allow the public to pump their own gas.
But of course, Senator Sweeney the weenie won't pass it.
So we continue to live in the pompous stone age of spoiled princesses and spikey haired punks who don't know how to pump their own gas,
yet will rattle off obscenities like a Ar15 Bushmaster if their caramel macchiato doesn't have enough cream.
But that's Jersey for you.
Chris Christie for President.... Fuhgeddaboudit!
Chris Christie for Italian Subs... Now your talking.
Lemme tell you sumpthin'
Jersey people may be sometimes gullible, and maybe even sometime stoopid, but if you guys vote to go with self service gas, yer all idiots. Two states hung tough...Jersey and Oregon, and I live on the border between the two. WA State gas is routinely 5-8 cents more expensive than Oregon, so I gas up in Oregon as much as I can. I hate pumping gas, but out here in WA, (and every other state that bought into this line of crap) there's more of the...park your car, get out, walk to the convenience store, wait in line, pay the guy, then pump, then go back inside, wait in line AGAIN, and get your change. OR, put nothing larger that a 20 in a kiosk, and if you put in too much, see example above.
I was a gas pumper back in the day, and it was a service (made a nickel a quart of oil as a commission + got to keep anything left over from the days before oil came in screw capped bottles, a Godsend for the '62 Ford with the bad rings (40W, straight worked best)). I thought Christie was out of this fight and Sweeney was against is, so, in one of those rare instances, I go with the Dems on this one. Anyone that says you're gonna save money at the pump is sniffin too much ethyl. For once, "Jrzy Girls Don't Pump Gas" is spot on.
And I throw the guy pumpin' on a cold crappy day a few bucks for coffee. I remember those days as a college kid makin' $1.25/hr honest money. Learned something about cars too.
Jersey people may be sometimes gullible, and maybe even sometime stoopid, but if you guys vote to go with self service gas, yer all idiots. Two states hung tough...Jersey and Oregon, and I live on the border between the two. WA State gas is routinely 5-8 cents more expensive than Oregon, so I gas up in Oregon as much as I can. I hate pumping gas, but out here in WA, (and every other state that bought into this line of crap) there's more of the...park your car, get out, walk to the convenience store, wait in line, pay the guy, then pump, then go back inside, wait in line AGAIN, and get your change. OR, put nothing larger that a 20 in a kiosk, and if you put in too much, see example above.
I was a gas pumper back in the day, and it was a service (made a nickel a quart of oil as a commission + got to keep anything left over from the days before oil came in screw capped bottles, a Godsend for the '62 Ford with the bad rings (40W, straight worked best)). I thought Christie was out of this fight and Sweeney was against is, so, in one of those rare instances, I go with the Dems on this one. Anyone that says you're gonna save money at the pump is sniffin too much ethyl. For once, "Jrzy Girls Don't Pump Gas" is spot on.
And I throw the guy pumpin' on a cold crappy day a few bucks for coffee. I remember those days as a college kid makin' $1.25/hr honest money. Learned something about cars too.
Yeah Christie's out of everything. He's been campaigning around the country, while the issues continue to grow here in Jersey.
From the new standardized test call the Parc tests to the state employee pension scandal/debacle.
From the struggles of the people left to fend for themselves after hurricane sandy to being called one of the top 5 states with high taxes.
From high unemployment to bridge gate indictments.
He's been absent from office quite abit. He's more teflon than John Gotti and shakes off all the issues like Jets' Antonio Cromartie going for 10.
Aside from all that... I kind of like the guy. I just don't see him as president.
At least not yet.
Meh I don't mind pumping gas. Keeps the gas nozzle scratches and broken gas door hinges at a minimum.
Anyway we're getting off course with this.
If you need any further assistance shoot me a PM.:thumbup:
From the new standardized test call the Parc tests to the state employee pension scandal/debacle.
From the struggles of the people left to fend for themselves after hurricane sandy to being called one of the top 5 states with high taxes.
From high unemployment to bridge gate indictments.
He's been absent from office quite abit. He's more teflon than John Gotti and shakes off all the issues like Jets' Antonio Cromartie going for 10.
Aside from all that... I kind of like the guy. I just don't see him as president.
At least not yet.
Meh I don't mind pumping gas. Keeps the gas nozzle scratches and broken gas door hinges at a minimum.
Anyway we're getting off course with this.
If you need any further assistance shoot me a PM.:thumbup:
Sadly, Satin Dolls in Lodi is no more but...
it's time to revisit this issue of ICV valve cleaning, since my son has custody of said 1991 E34, and I'm hoping to get at least another year before putting the .45 pistol to the engine block like an old Cavalry trooper. I've learned that the words "banned" now show up under a person's name, and its for a reason. Quick question. I'm gonna pull the intake manifold before tackling this job and that engenders the gasket set. Do you need to get new gaskets? If so, I'l have to probably order then before taking a crack at this. Give me your best Jersey opinion please.
Regards,
Christen
it's time to revisit this issue of ICV valve cleaning, since my son has custody of said 1991 E34, and I'm hoping to get at least another year before putting the .45 pistol to the engine block like an old Cavalry trooper. I've learned that the words "banned" now show up under a person's name, and its for a reason. Quick question. I'm gonna pull the intake manifold before tackling this job and that engenders the gasket set. Do you need to get new gaskets? If so, I'l have to probably order then before taking a crack at this. Give me your best Jersey opinion please.
Regards,
Christen
Hey guys. Been a while. But I will try to answer your question DOC. I would do the gaskets with the job your undertaking. Once everything is sorted out. You should definitely get more than a year out of it.
Unfortunately I've moved on from the e34 chassis. But I still have a soft spot for them and always try to chat with local owners when I see one.
Unfortunately I've moved on from the e34 chassis. But I still have a soft spot for them and always try to chat with local owners when I see one.
Looks like Satin Dolls has "left the building" in more ways than one.
As soon as I hit the send button, I went up and reread the various posts and realized "of course you change the gaskets, you idiot...the car was built in Munich in Nov of 1990", one month before I got called up from the Army Reserves and shipped out for Desert Storm. My wife at the time was pregnant with the current owner, my son. Yeah, change the gaskets and while you're at it, do some research on other hoses under that intake manifold and replace them while everything is exposed. I drive a '94 E36 with the same motor, so there's some overlap. Like most things with cars, somethings will change out easy, and some will be a bitch and a half. Pretty much the same with virtually everything made that's mechanical. When I read and re-read what you posted, I think things were clear enough for me to follow, and it doesn't look all that daunting to do the job. I just hate doing the job in the winter, as I'm a fair weather part changer. My interest in cars came about when I was going to college in the late '60's and the old '62 Ford wouldn't start, and it was January, the streets were slushy, it was snowing lightly, and I was in dress shoes (we still went to college back then, in Jersey City no less, in coat and tie as fine Christian gentlemen).
I swore that I was going to learn as much about a car as I could so this would never happen again.
Can't say I've never been stranded since '67, but I've had more than a fair shot at fixing something on the road than having my car towed (happened only twice-E34 fuel pump and E34 steering column failure). Now that I think about it, why do I still own this car? Or rather, why did I give it to my son, and still effectively "own this car". Anyway, I appreciate your posting, information and the help you provided. The knowledge gained is and was certainly useful.
Regards,
Christen
As soon as I hit the send button, I went up and reread the various posts and realized "of course you change the gaskets, you idiot...the car was built in Munich in Nov of 1990", one month before I got called up from the Army Reserves and shipped out for Desert Storm. My wife at the time was pregnant with the current owner, my son. Yeah, change the gaskets and while you're at it, do some research on other hoses under that intake manifold and replace them while everything is exposed. I drive a '94 E36 with the same motor, so there's some overlap. Like most things with cars, somethings will change out easy, and some will be a bitch and a half. Pretty much the same with virtually everything made that's mechanical. When I read and re-read what you posted, I think things were clear enough for me to follow, and it doesn't look all that daunting to do the job. I just hate doing the job in the winter, as I'm a fair weather part changer. My interest in cars came about when I was going to college in the late '60's and the old '62 Ford wouldn't start, and it was January, the streets were slushy, it was snowing lightly, and I was in dress shoes (we still went to college back then, in Jersey City no less, in coat and tie as fine Christian gentlemen).
I swore that I was going to learn as much about a car as I could so this would never happen again.
Can't say I've never been stranded since '67, but I've had more than a fair shot at fixing something on the road than having my car towed (happened only twice-E34 fuel pump and E34 steering column failure). Now that I think about it, why do I still own this car? Or rather, why did I give it to my son, and still effectively "own this car". Anyway, I appreciate your posting, information and the help you provided. The knowledge gained is and was certainly useful.
Regards,
Christen
I decided to bite the bullet on taking off the intake manifold, and your information was very helpful. Be mindful, this was a 1991 E34, and not all E34's have the exact same configurations. So take my advice with a grain of salt if your year is different and part of the later run in the series. I plan on doing a write up with pictures, if I can figure out how to upload them, detailing my experience with reaching the ICV. Anyway, I smoked a damned Swisher Sweet (2 for $1.79 plus tax at Safeway) and blew smoke into a vacuum line up by the PCV value and couldn't find a leak... until I started disassembly and then I discovered a split fitting in the 90 degree VERY LARGE "boot" hose (if you can call it that) that was NOT visible unless the boot was loosen from the throttle body and removed...meaning as you were bending over the car from the front driver's fender, from the 6 o'clock viewpoint, the break in the boot was exactly at the 12 o'clock position, meaning, facing the side of the motor and NOT VISIBLE on cursory inspection. It was the larger of the two vacuum hoses, the one that runs to the ICV and is closest to the firewall...about a foot long (the hose in question) and an inch thick. There is a slightly angled plastic "connector" between the boot and the ICV hose, and both my ICV-Boot hose, AND the boot itself we're compromised, meaning cracked at the top. I almost called it quits and declared the problem solved, but couldn't shake the feeling that the ICV value would need attention. So I followed your advice and tore into the intake manifold removal process. I'm going to have to replace a small short rubber fuel hose as the one in the front that attaches to the fuel rail (there are two) pretty much disintegrated. No big issue there. It needed to replaced. And once I got to the ICV and figured how to disconnect the electrical connector (super easy IF YOU REMEMBER to press "IN" on the wire and wiggle it out. My ICV was plugged. No movement was detected upon shaking the ICV unit. With a Harbor Freight orange handled pick, I was able to barely move the innards. However, with about 15 Q-Tips, some brake cleaner, and some elbow grease, I got the valve "unstuck", meaning basically, when you shake it from side to side in a twisting motion, it should rattle. Mine didn't, but it sure does now. I ordered new hoses, air filter, PCV value and other parts from Pelican Parts, so they are arriving tonight, and tomorrow I should have it all buttoned up and test fired. Here's hoping.
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