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Discussion Starter #81
Austin has the car on their lot. Maybe they have a dozen interest buyers. Maybe you're the only one.

They know, or should know, that you are ready to go at your numbers.

They can do what they want, but if they want to move that unit, they know you're a buyer.

Stick to your proposal.
I stuck to the proposal, and he came back saying they were all in and that he appreciated the opportunity. Which is a surprising tone shift considering we were still discussing the possibility of financing something. I'm not going to budge on the lease numbers and I'm guessing it's a negotiation tactic to try to get me to budge first.
 

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I stuck to the proposal, and he came back saying they were all in and that he appreciated the opportunity. Which is a surprising tone shift considering we were still discussing the possibility of financing something. I'm not going to budge on the lease numbers and I'm guessing it's a negotiation tactic to try to get me to budge first.
You've done what you can. Once you move north of the $50,000 price point, there are many interesting options, though the BMW M occupies a special spot.

I walked from a deal many decades ago -- they couldn't possibly meet my numbers and trade-in requirements. The next dealer I contacted took care of my trade as I requested and met all of my numbers and added value with upgraded wheels.

So, one never knows what is possible or where it might happen. Depends on so many variables.

Word is the new Lexus IS is supposed to be better than before, though not BMW M class by a long stretch. And Infiniti has every motivation to take care of you as well. And the new BMW 2 series Gran Coupe in 300hp M configuration, while a very different concept, is a much better price point.

But if your heart is set on what you've selected, then it just comes down to numbers and finding the needle in the haystack.

If the Austin dealer knows they've got a deal and the let you walk, then the best you can do is thank them for trying and tell them if their numbers change, you'd like to hear what they might do to get you closer. Or move on.
 

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In 2016 I visited the local BMW Center looking for a replacement for my Range Rover. While kicking some tires I spotted a MINI Clubman S All4. It was not ever on my radar but I test drove it just for giggles, and decided that's what I wanted. I went home and configured a car, called the manager and he emailed me some numbers, which made no sense based on advertised offers.

I called him back with a counter-proposal and, after a little bit of back and forth, I decided to take him at his word when he told me my proposal was not possible for him to do.

I cold-called a second local MINI dealer, got the GSM on the phone and told him what I wanted, what the offer was that I had walked away from, and what I was ready to say yes to. We did the deal on my exact terms, he sent me an email of the build sheet, with invoice, and a credit app which I signed and sent back. No $ changed hands -- never even met the guy until I took flawless delivery. Turned that MINI in at lease end and picked up another one last fall.

First deal was better than the second deal, but the second deal is great enough, except for that darned $30 fee, the custom paint is wonderful, love the car, and our "nice" cars are sitting in the garage, rarely driven, because the MINI has become the go-to car.

So one never knows.
 

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Discussion Starter #84
In 2016 I visited the local BMW Center looking for a replacement for my Range Rover. While kicking some tires I spotted a MINI Clubman S All4. It was not ever on my radar but I test drove it just for giggles, and decided that's what I wanted. I went home and configured a car, called the manager and he emailed me some numbers, which made no sense based on advertised offers.

I called him back with a counter-proposal and, after a little bit of back and forth, I decided to take him at his word when he told me my proposal was not possible for him to do.

I cold-called a second local MINI dealer, got the GSM on the phone and told him what I wanted, what the offer was that I had walked away from, and what I was ready to say yes to. We did the deal on my exact terms, he sent me an email of the build sheet, with invoice, and a credit app which I signed and sent back. No $ changed hands -- never even met the guy until I took flawless delivery. Turned that MINI in at lease end and picked up another one last fall.

First deal was better than the second deal, but the second deal is great enough, except for that darned $30 fee, the custom paint is wonderful, love the car, and our "nice" cars are sitting in the garage, rarely driven, because the MINI has become the go-to car.

So one never knows.
Sage advice. At this juncture I think I'm going to cease communicating with the Austin dealer as they know what my terms are, and if they won't move then I wouldn't go with them anyway. Their MSRP's seem to be higher than most other dealerships in Texas. If they come back to me they come back to me, if they don't they don't.

I found a good deal on a RWD M340i in Houston for 59 MSRP, 55 after some discounts with under 4k miles. The car actually has even more features/packages than I expected to get (premium was a must, but also has driver assistance and parking assistance packages, power boot, etc). The only downside is that it's wood grain on the finish inside instead of metal, which I don't LOVE but can live with. Worth given the extra features and I could probably pay to change it out later.

I laid all of my terms out for him and said opening to finance or lease, gave info about my car. He's working on putting some stuff together for me now. So maybe (hopefully) I'll run into a similar situation as you!
 

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Sage advice. At this juncture I think I'm going to cease communicating with the Austin dealer as they know what my terms are, and if they won't move then I wouldn't go with them anyway. Their MSRP's seem to be higher than most other dealerships in Texas. If they come back to me they come back to me, if they don't they don't.

I found a good deal on a RWD M340i in Houston for 59 MSRP, 55 after some discounts with under 4k miles. The car actually has even more features/packages than I expected to get (premium was a must, but also has driver assistance and parking assistance packages, power boot, etc). The only downside is that it's wood grain on the finish inside instead of metal, which I don't LOVE but can live with. Worth given the extra features and I could probably pay to change it out later.

I laid all of my terms out for him and said opening to finance or lease, gave info about my car. He's working on putting some stuff together for me now. So maybe (hopefully) I'll run into a similar situation as you!

Many of us, while always interested in hearing the dealer's offer, tend to present our "yes" offer to the dealer -- saves time and a lot of back-and-forth. Also, it often changes the dynamic of the negotiation. And if there's no deal to be had, this is evident quickly and saves everyone's time and energy.

In the traditional selling model, the dealer is prepared for the customer to engage in the back-and-forth, offer/counter-offer process, with the dealer slowly moving down (creating the illusion that the customer is "winning" in the negotiation), while the customer is slowly bumped higher. The feeling that the dealer is in charge of the negotiation is set up, even though, in reality, the savvy customer controls the process. And, of course, the dealer has all sorts of fees and add-ons lurking in the wings that are often not disclosed or discussed during initial negotiations.

So, when a "price" and a deal are finally agreed to, after all the ping pong, then doc fees and undercoating and tinting and nitrogen fill and glazing suddenly appear as non-negotiable costs.

We 'Festers try to skip all that, or a lot of it, by calculating invoice, knowing consumer incentives, knowing the buy rates for loans and leases, knowing residuals, understanding the current market, and then quietly doing our own math.

We decide what driving a certain vehicle, equipped the way we want, is worth to us. Totally subjective.

We tell ourselves, "If I can drive this car for these numbers, it's worth it." Doesn't matter if somebody paid less for their car. We decide what the ride is worth to us, and then we tell the dealer, and we say it in such a way so they know we mean it. And we do mean it. And we usually get great deals.

But, even if the deals aren't great compared to what some others may have snagged, we don't care because we're driving what we want for a cost we are comfortable paying.

That's the game in a nutshell.

You'll know you're getting better at it when you find yourself talking with the right deal-maker at your chosen dealership and things run fairly smoothly, with few or no surprises along the way.

Best of luck. Keep us posted.
 

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I would advise the OP to wait til 2-3 days before the end of the month and email the general sales manager exactly what you***8217;re willing to pay. When I was shopping for my current car in early May, I was dealing with a sales person. He kept insisting they can only do my M4 lease deal for over $1000/month and they were all in on it, basically making $0 profit. I calculated how much I was willing to pay and it was ~$300 lower. When I emailed him my offer he didn***8217;t even bother giving me a reply or counter offer. So I waited til 3 days before end of the month and emailed the general sales manager with the exact same ~$300/month lower offer. He apologized for the sales person not getting back to me and accepted my offer without any hesitation. He said the sales person was probably thinking they couldn***8217;t do my deal but he was a few cars short of his sales goal.

Lesson for the day is a sales person usually only cares about how much profit he can make on a car and the general sales manager is looking at the big picture of his sales goal. If he***8217;s a couple cars short at the end of the month, he would be willing to make an aggressive deal to make it happen. Of course this is only possible on in stock cars.
 

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Discussion Starter #87
I would advise the OP to wait til 2-3 days before the end of the month and email the general sales manager exactly what you're willing to pay. When I was shopping for my current car in early May, I was dealing with a sales person. He kept insisting they can only do my M4 lease deal for over $1000/month and they were all in on it, basically making $0 profit. I calculated how much I was willing to pay and it was ~$300 lower. When I emailed him my offer he didn't even bother giving me a reply or counter offer. So I waited til 3 days before end of the month and emailed the general sales manager with the exact same ~$300/month lower offer. He apologized for the sales person not getting back to me and accepted my offer without any hesitation. He said the sales person was probably thinking they couldn't do my deal but he was a few cars short of his sales goal.

Lesson for the day is a sales person usually only cares about how much profit he can make on a car and the general sales manager is looking at the big picture of his sales goal. If he's a couple cars short at the end of the month, he would be willing to make an aggressive deal to make it happen. Of course this is only possible on in stock cars.
Thanks for this! I'll definitely do this, I'm slow-playing negotiations right now and just trying to spot the perfect car, anticipating something will happen end-July. Appreciate the advice!
 

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I would advise the OP to wait til 2-3 days before the end of the month and email the general sales manager exactly what you're willing to pay...

Lesson for the day is a sales person usually only cares about how much profit he can make on a car and the general sales manager is looking at the big picture of his sales goal. If he's a couple cars short at the end of the month, he would be willing to make an aggressive deal to make it happen. Of course this is only possible on in stock cars.
So true. I've said this before, we pay less because others pay more.

In today's COVID world things are a little more difficult to see clearly. But dealers need to move that metal, and the end of a sales period is when the best deals, usually, are most likely to happen.

And, yes, the best deal I ever did was last day of month, last day of quarter, last day of the dealer's fiscal year. They basically paid me to sign that deal because it represented the sale that put them over the top into big bonus money plus it improved their future allocation of very high-margin/high demand/short supply cars that they could sell above MSRP to people on their waiting list. That was a one time deal unlikely to be replicated by me -- one moment/one experience.

Dealers want to sell the cars they have. Sometimes they are willing to lose money to make money. Sometimes the front line salesperson knows what's going on, sometimes even the Sales Manager only knows a piece of the puzzle. But, at every dealership there is someone who sees the big picture and can calculate the value to the dealership of doing a loss-leader deal. That's the person you want to talk with at the end of the month.

What does that person want to hear? Clean deal, qualified, courteous buyer, ready to sign today, gonna get top CSI rating. YMMV, but you'll get their best deal.
 

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Discussion Starter #90 (Edited)
Man, it's been a very long day of negotiating. My sign now deal for financing is 800 a month but willing to go to 850, 60 month term, 0.9 APR, no more than 3000 down. One dealership came back to me with 836/66 months at 1.9, with 3500 down on a new model with an MSRP of 61K. The second dealership could not get me below $900 monthly at a $3000 down payment without going to a 72 month term at 2.9 for a new MSRP 63k model. I thanked both dealerships, and told them that I could not do anything higher than 850 monthly, but if something changed that they knew how to find me.

I'm now talking to a third dealership that may have a perfect car for me with an MSRP of 59K, new model. I told him my sign now numbers as above, not mentioning my willingness to go to 850, and that I had two offers on the table from other dealerships and wanted to see if they could beat those offers.

Doing my best to stick to my guns and follow the advice that all of you have so graciously given me. Thank you all again for everything. I definitely would have been ripped off if I had tried to do this alone.
 

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Man, it's been a very long day of negotiating...

Doing my best to stick to my guns and follow the advice that all of you have so graciously given me. Thank you all again for everything. I definitely would have been ripped off if I had tried to do this alone.
You get high marks for tenacity.

It's the 20th of the month, moving inexorably closer to deal makin' season.

Let it come to you.
 

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Discussion Starter #92 (Edited)
In my search for a better deal, I managed to find a listing for a used 2018 M4 Competition. 11,000 miles, one owner, heads up display, Merino leather, no accidents or damage, 55k which I bet I can get down to about 50-51.

Now I'm having a debate mentally if I go for my dream car now or keep pushing for a good deal on the 2020 M340i. Am I crazy or does this seem like potentially a better deal? Why would I pay for a mid-optioned M340i if I can have an M4 Competition for the same money on low mileage and theoretically still under warranty?
 

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In my search for a better deal, I managed to find a listing for a used 2018 M4 Competition. 11,000 miles, one owner, heads up display, Merino leather, no accidents or damage, 55k which I bet I can get down to about 50-51.

Now I'm having a debate mentally if I go for my dream car now or keep pushing for a good deal on the 2020 M340i. Am I crazy or does this seem like potentially a better deal? Why would I pay for a mid-optioned M340i if I can have an M4 Competition for the same money on low mileage and theoretically still under warranty?
I think late model M car definitely an option. I had 17 manual M3 and loved it. Solid, solid car.
Thought you needed/wanted 4 doors?
 

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Discussion Starter #94
In my search for a better deal, I managed to find a listing for a used 2018 M4 Competition. 11,000 miles, one owner, heads up display, Merino leather, no accidents or damage, 55k which I bet I can get down to about 50-51.

Now I'm having a debate mentally if I go for my dream car now or keep pushing for a good deal on the 2020 M340i. Am I crazy or does this seem like potentially a better deal? Why would I pay for a mid-optioned M340i if I can have an M4 Competition for the same money on low mileage and theoretically still under warranty?
I think late model M car definitely an option. I had 17 manual M3 and loved it. Solid, solid car.
Thought you needed/wanted 4 doors?
4 doors would definitely be more practical, but the M4 has always been my dream car. My wife knows this and is supportive of me going for it if the dollars make sense. We have her SUV if we need a practical car for now.

It feels like I***8217;m brazenly trying to justify the M4 ***x1f923;
 

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4 doors would definitely be more practical, but the M4 has always been my dream car. My wife knows this and is supportive of me going for it if the dollars make sense. We have her SUV if we need a practical car for now.

It feels like I'm brazenly trying to justify the M4 ***x1f923;
You now seem to be firmly in the camp of "chasing a deal" instead of focused on getting the car you want.

These two cars are fairly different. One (M340) is a 4 door commuter car that happens to be comfortable, and also pretty fast. It seats 4, you can put in a carseat easily, and it is fairly happy both cruising to work every day, as well as the occasional "spirited drive" somewhere, even an autocross.

The other (M4 competition) is a car that is designed for performance first. The suspension will be very stiff, you can only really get 1 other person in it (if either of you are even middle height you are not putting carseats or anyone else behind you), and in my opinion makes for a pretty oor commuter car, but would be fun as a weekends toy.

I did not get the impression you were looking for a weekend toy. If you want a "real" M car instead of a M340, you likely would be better off looking at the M3, since you wanted 4 doors.

From following along, it appears to me that you are just getting tired of the hunt (understandable) and now grasping at what might be a good financial idea, but not necessarily a good overall idea.

An M4 competition only makes sense as your third car, at least to me. It certainly doesnt make a good commuter car. I loved the 435 I had, because I liked the styling better on the 4 series than the 3, but it also had 4 doors, and I could put 4 human beings in it, even though the top slanted down in the back.

If you really wanted the M4, you would have started the hunt for that car, at least thats my opinion... now you are either convincing yourself, or letting yourself be convinced that its good for you because you think its a good price.

THAT is a car you DEFINITELY want to "date" and dont want to marry right off the bat, unless you have history with BMW M cars.

I have also watched your budget climb in this thread, from, I think, Mid 600s, to 850. Thats a LARGE jump. Thats fine, because only you and your family know whats comfortable, I am just reminding you that you started off looking at mid 600s if I remember properly.

Heck, I pay $720 a month on an X3 on a lease, and it was a smokin deal... 2500 under invoice before any incentives were attached (the MSRP on my wifes X3 M40 was like 68 or 69k, which I realize is more than many X5s, but this one has pretty much every option BMW makes on an X3 except for tow hitch). Anyway, the monthly price for type of car is not the issue, its more "is it what you want", and "does it fit your needs".

Dont get lost in the chase for a deal. Some people enjoy the chase, some dont (I fall into the later catagory, even though I am fairly good at getting the deal I want on a car).

Just from reading this thread, I dont think an M4 competition would be a good fit (especially for someone just now coming over to BMW). Its a "halo" car for sure, but living with one would not be the same thing as taking it for a test drive.

I really think your best bet is to stay focused on the M340, or, , look for an M3 if you really want a "real" M car, but most people are not even going to push the M340, let alone a real M car. Saying that, I get the need for speed. My current car goes 0-60 in very close to 3 seconds... around 3.2 to 3.1, but I dont do that very often. Only to play stoplight hero every now and then.
 

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jj speaks truth.

We drive the cars, not the deals.

Figure out the car you really want, find it or order it, make a good deal on it, and enjoy the ride.

It's fine to have your sense of what you want evolve. It may be wise to be open to looking at something different than you initially thought you wanted (says the man who went to lease a BMW to replace a Range Rover and ended up ordering a MINI).

But get the sequence right. Pick car first, then do deal.
 

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Don***8217;t listen to anyone saying the M4 is a weekend car. I***8217;ve daily driven a M4 Competition Package as my only car since 2017. Yes, it***8217;s harsher than a M340i but plenty people do it on the other BMW forum. But make sure you take a through test drive and know what you***8217;re getting into.
 

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Don't listen to anyone saying the M4 is a weekend car. I've daily driven a M4 Competition Package as my only car since 2017. Yes, it's harsher than a M340i but plenty people do it on the other BMW forum. But make sure you take a through test drive and know what you're getting into.

And... how long is your history of driving BMWs? You joined this site in 2006. Would you recommend your car as a "First BMW" to someone as their daily driver, who is married and has a family?
 

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Life is short, drive what you love.

And figure that out before you start grinding out a deal!!

Buying/leasing based on price can be a smart strategy. If I am thinking Chevy or Ford, then I might just say to the dealers, "I'm looking for a deal on a good car and I'm flexible as to model and color. What on your lot can get us to the best deal?"

That is very different from selecting a high line vehicle that is as much a personal indulgence as a mode of transport.

I repeat my father's words when our family bought that first new BMW in 1968. "We're declaring a dividend." BMWs are dividends we pay to ourselves. If you want one, get one, and give The Man the money -- hopefully a little less money than the next guy.
 

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Discussion Starter #100
You now seem to be firmly in the camp of "chasing a deal" instead of focused on getting the car you want.

These two cars are fairly different. One (M340) is a 4 door commuter car that happens to be comfortable, and also pretty fast. It seats 4, you can put in a carseat easily, and it is fairly happy both cruising to work every day, as well as the occasional "spirited drive" somewhere, even an autocross.

The other (M4 competition) is a car that is designed for performance first. The suspension will be very stiff, you can only really get 1 other person in it (if either of you are even middle height you are not putting carseats or anyone else behind you), and in my opinion makes for a pretty oor commuter car, but would be fun as a weekends toy.

I did not get the impression you were looking for a weekend toy. If you want a "real" M car instead of a M340, you likely would be better off looking at the M3, since you wanted 4 doors.

From following along, it appears to me that you are just getting tired of the hunt (understandable) and now grasping at what might be a good financial idea, but not necessarily a good overall idea.

An M4 competition only makes sense as your third car, at least to me. It certainly doesnt make a good commuter car. I loved the 435 I had, because I liked the styling better on the 4 series than the 3, but it also had 4 doors, and I could put 4 human beings in it, even though the top slanted down in the back.

If you really wanted the M4, you would have started the hunt for that car, at least thats my opinion... now you are either convincing yourself, or letting yourself be convinced that its good for you because you think its a good price.

THAT is a car you DEFINITELY want to "date" and dont want to marry right off the bat, unless you have history with BMW M cars.

I have also watched your budget climb in this thread, from, I think, Mid 600s, to 850. Thats a LARGE jump. Thats fine, because only you and your family know whats comfortable, I am just reminding you that you started off looking at mid 600s if I remember properly.

Heck, I pay $720 a month on an X3 on a lease, and it was a smokin deal... 2500 under invoice before any incentives were attached (the MSRP on my wifes X3 M40 was like 68 or 69k, which I realize is more than many X5s, but this one has pretty much every option BMW makes on an X3 except for tow hitch). Anyway, the monthly price for type of car is not the issue, its more "is it what you want", and "does it fit your needs".

Dont get lost in the chase for a deal. Some people enjoy the chase, some dont (I fall into the later catagory, even though I am fairly good at getting the deal I want on a car).

Just from reading this thread, I dont think an M4 competition would be a good fit (especially for someone just now coming over to BMW). Its a "halo" car for sure, but living with one would not be the same thing as taking it for a test drive.

I really think your best bet is to stay focused on the M340, or, , look for an M3 if you really want a "real" M car, but most people are not even going to push the M340, let alone a real M car. Saying that, I get the need for speed. My current car goes 0-60 in very close to 3 seconds... around 3.2 to 3.1, but I dont do that very often. Only to play stoplight hero every now and then.
You're 100% right. I decided to pull back on chasing the M4, as good of a deal as it looked. I think in the future I'll try to get a new M3 built and truly get my dream car instead that's also practical, and get the car that makes sense right now.

The Dallas dealer came back after we agreed to part ways with another deal, $10 less on the payment (I think about another $600 off the sales price). It's tempting at this point as the monthly payment is at 826, but that's on a 66 mo. term at 1.9%. Anything over a 60 mo term feels too long for me.

Another big development - I found a car in Georgia and think I fell in love with the M340i in blue. 900 miles, even more loaded than either car I was looking at before, 53k asking price. If I can get the price down to about 50k, put 3k down + pay tax, I can get my payment on 60 months exactly where I want it. The only downside is I don't love the mocha seats, I'd prefer cognac or black/black with M contrast. Fingers crossed!
 
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