BimmerFest BMW Forum banner

21 - 40 of 56 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,801 Posts
Then again... perhaps it's best that most haven't a clue. Remember, we pay less because others pay more.

It is encouraging that OP so candidly seeks clarification and elucidation regarding the ins and outs of leasing.

But, overall, we are allowed to snag aggressive deals to give dealers that one more unit that helps hit a sales goal. The deals we are given, if given to all, would not sustain a retail car dealership. It is the balance of the universe, which, if tipped too far in favor of consumers, will cause the entire paradigm to collapse. Ahh, the beauty of capitalism, nasty bugger that it is.

Prepare well, grind hard, then give them all your money, one aggressive lease deal at a time.
 

·
Go Hawks!!!
Joined
·
413 Posts
Then again... perhaps it's best that most haven't a clue. Remember, we pay less because others pay more.

It is encouraging that OP so candidly seeks clarification and elucidation regarding the ins and outs of leasing.

But, overall, we are allowed to snag aggressive deals to give dealers that one more unit that helps hit a sales goal. The deals we are given, if given to all, would not sustain a retail car dealership. It is the balance of the universe, which, if tipped too far in favor of consumers, will cause the entire paradigm to collapse. Ahh, the beauty of capitalism, nasty bugger that it is.

Prepare well, grind hard, then give them all your money, one aggressive lease deal at a time.
Agreed, he came to right place if he really wants to learn and get ribbed a bit! And it isn't all that hard...plus sorta fun...I look at other's lease deals all the time as I just love to play with numbers...I've given thought to being a 'major' purchase consultant to help people with their deals! Ha
 

·
Go Hawks!!!
Joined
·
413 Posts
The thing I forget is most of us on this sub don't really care what the actual payment amount is...we care about getting a great sale price if buying or great cap/MF if leasing...the payment numbers just work out to be the payment numbers then. But most regular people have a payment number in mind based on budget, what they just got out of, etc. It is a totally different mindset that I never even think about...I just want a great sales price/cap/MF and could care less what payment turns out to be if I don't pay cash...but I sure know what all those numbers will be before convos with dealers.
 

·
Registered
2018 X5M
Joined
·
1,714 Posts
The thing I forget is most of us on this sub don't really care what the actual payment amount is...we care about getting a great sale price if buying or great cap/MF if leasing...the payment numbers just work out to be the payment numbers then. But most regular people have a payment number in mind based on budget, what they just got out of, etc. It is a totally different mindset that I never even think about...I just want a great sales price/cap/MF and could care less what payment turns out to be if I don't pay cash...but I sure know what all those numbers will be before convos with dealers.
Agree 110%:thumbup: .

OP took the bait of the ad to get him in the front door and the dealer did a switch to a higher priced model-- this sales model has been around for century's. Positive reinforcement to BMWNA and their franchised centers marketing budget that large money down payment advertising still works wonders regarding a artificial low monthly payment number for positive foot traffic.

These COVID-19 days start the negotiation process in low pressure environment from your couch via e-mail.

OP I used to look at those same ads 20+ years ago, until I understood all the moving parts of a lease. Encouragement to you for posting and taking feedback as a good sport. :beerchug:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
68 Posts
Why would you allow them to throw any extras into the cap cost? The only ones which are mandatory are the lease acquisition fee, plates, and the dealership's document fee. (Plus in some states, the property taxes). But every single one of these should be disclosed up front. Get those in writing, plug them into your lease calculator and run the numbers BEFORE you show up to take delivery. Most of us have the payment worked out to the penny before we set foot in the Finance Manager's office.

Yes, they will try to upsell you on insurance plans, extended maintenance, wear and tear coverage (which actually make sense if you have a light color interior with small kids, or a significant other who cannot parallel park without grinding the alloy wheels against the curb), LoJack, VIN etched in the side windows, Rusty Jones and other nonsense. But every one of those is optional.

If you don't have your own lease calculator, use the one on Leasehackr.com. Just be sure to use the correct sales tax rate for your state.
Because I'm not as smart as you, OK? :rofl: Hey, at least I didn't go in with an ad and say meet this price! (Just kidding, OP) Anyway, the extras rolled into the Gross Cap Cost were the $600 Maintenance Agreement, a $596 "pre-delivery service charge" (which included docs), and a $925 acquisition fee. No, I didn't get them ahead of time but I did know the other things I mentioned (MF, incentives etc.). I am still unclear on the Acquisition Fee -- it sounds like these are usually not negotiable? What about that $596 service charge? Now, about the maintenance agreement -- I had specifically told the guy I wanted NO extra warranties and he repeated it back to me. So he bamboozled me with double-talk and I didn't pick up the charge when I was signing that page. Lesson learned for next time and at least I got it back.

One of the problems I've found is that I have a hard time making sense of those "Lease Worksheets" they give you and translating them into the numbers on the actual final agreement.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,890 Posts
The thing I forget is most of us on this sub don't really care what the actual payment amount is...we care about getting a great sale price if buying or great cap/MF if leasing...the payment numbers just work out to be the payment numbers then. But most regular people have a payment number in mind based on budget, what they just got out of, etc. It is a totally different mindset that I never even think about...I just want a great sales price/cap/MF and could care less what payment turns out to be if I don't pay cash...but I sure know what all those numbers will be before convos with dealers.

I actually care about the monthly for my own deals. I still do it the way you are talking about, but put it in a lease calculator ahead of time so that I can see what the numbers are like @quack said.

Then, you can play with the numbers to see if you can actually afford that loaded car you are eyeing, or whatever.

Unlike some of you on this sub, I dont particularly "enjoy the hunt" so to speak, related to negotiating on car deals. I taught myself how to do it, mostly by reading here over the years, and paid it back by helping others for quite a while.

I dont like the hunt and negotiation part though. The BMW before the last one I bought, I figured everything out, found a dealer who had the exact build I wanted in stock, contacted them, and said "I will take this car if you will give me this deal (with everything laid out), if not, have a nice day, I will order a vehicle from a dealer local to me.

They met my price, and when I got there to pick it up, the finance guy had to "reprint the documents" 2 separate times because of "mistakes", and also tried to hard sell me on warranties etc. I almost walked out but had driven 3 hours to pick the car up.

I completely blasted them on the survey though, and got contacted by the GM who I had met when I first arrived. I detailed my experience in the finance office, and also told him that due to that I would never be back at that dealership. He apologized and asked me what he could do to make it right, and I told him that was a nice offer, but that bridge was burnt.

My last deal was completely different. I ordered from Greg P. we had an email exchange to discuss particulars, a 10 minute phonecall for a "verbal handshake" to order the car, and I waited for it to come in.

It was supposed to be in by the end of the year, but BMW delayed the build so it became an early 2019 delivery instead of late 2018. I still got the same deal structure, I drove to pick it up and was in and out of there in like 45 minutes tops, even with a lease return and me inspecting the new vehicle.

I got the deal I wanted, with literally zero stress. From gregs point of view it was likely easy too, since I had already specced out everything I wanted, didnt need a test drive, and didnt need hand holding on car status etc. Truly painless on both ends. If my wifes replacement vehicle for the X3 ends up being a BMW, I am definitely contacting Greg.
 

·
Go Hawks!!!
Joined
·
413 Posts
Because I'm not as smart as you, OK? :rofl: Hey, at least I didn't go in with an ad and say meet this price! (Just kidding, OP) Anyway, the extras rolled into the Gross Cap Cost were the $600 Maintenance Agreement, a $596 "pre-delivery service charge" (which included docs), and a $925 acquisition fee. No, I didn't get them ahead of time but I did know the other things I mentioned (MF, incentives etc.). I am still unclear on the Acquisition Fee -- it sounds like these are usually not negotiable? What about that $596 service charge? Now, about the maintenance agreement -- I had specifically told the guy I wanted NO extra warranties and he repeated it back to me. So he bamboozled me with double-talk and I didn't pick up the charge when I was signing that page. Lesson learned for next time and at least I got it back.

One of the problems I've found is that I have a hard time making sense of those "Lease Worksheets" they give you and translating them into the numbers on the actual final agreement.
There is no problem taking your time...as much as you need...before signing anything...I will either ask them to send to me prior to visit for review or I've sat there for an hour while reading everything...especially when doing my first leases...this is why you do all your own calcs beforehand and know the payment...because if it is different there you can ask or see why and tell them to remove fees for things you don't want, etc.

Generally for cap there is page that shows how it is calculated and that is where you should be able to see the detail...if not, ask, be assertive because you are lucky they changed something after you signed.

PS, acq fee is one of big lease expenses/downsides which you get nothing for...it is a set admin fee that can't be marked up...best to roll in cap like it sounds like you did. Back in the day dealerships could also mark this up but no longer.
 

·
Registered
2018 X5M
Joined
·
1,714 Posts
greginchi;13383977 PS said:
Rolling the acquisition fee into the lease is roughly a 55% discount based an average residual of 55% across the BMW model portfolio, but is exclusive of the interest cost to finance the acquisition fee.

I have been able to roll all of the upfront costs in my last lease, as the only payment due at signing was the 1st month lease payment. SC sales tax is capped at $500 as we pay yearly property taxes.
 

·
Go Hawks!!!
Joined
·
413 Posts
Rolling the acquisition fee into the lease is roughly a 55% discount based an average residual of 55% across the BMW model portfolio, but is exclusive of the interest cost to finance the acquisition fee.

I have been able to roll all of the upfront costs in my last lease, as the only payment due at signing was the 1st month lease payment. SC sales tax is capped at $500 as we pay yearly property taxes.
? Acq fee is not part of residual calculation. The reason for rolling in is if you total car early on you haven't paid for out of your pocket...same as reason for no down payment.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,801 Posts
...the extras rolled into the Gross Cap Cost were the $600 Maintenance Agreement, a $596 "pre-delivery service charge" (which included docs), and a $925 acquisition fee.
If you don't want the Maintenance, you can have that unwound for a refund. Dealers are not supposed to charge customers for pre-delivery prep, but they can charge a Doc fee. Many of us negotiate an offsetting discount on the Doc Fee because we don't want to hear all the BS about how they have to charge everyone the same fee. They can charge it, we can negotiate it away elsewhere in the deal.

As your candor reminds us all, don't sign until you understand what you're signing. And, when the slick Finance person 'splains everything, tell him/her to put it in writing. If they won't, time to call in the Sales Manager for a little chat. We have alllll the time in the world to get the docs done right. Always.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,801 Posts
BTW, several sales people and one GM have all told me that the tensest time is when the customer is in F&I. People who sell cars are amazed that F&I people don't blow up more deals with their slick moves. The general consensus is, in addition to fatigue and a desire to get off the lot with the new car, customers don't want to be rude to the "professional" F&I sales person.

I'm never rude, just amazingly curious and slow-witted when I'm in the F&I box. "What you just told me doesn't match what's in my notes. Let's go over this part again.... and again, if necessary." Always looking for those teachable moments, educating F&I tricksters, one car deal at a time.
 

·
Resident Curmudgeon
Joined
·
22,837 Posts
My GOD this is a tough crowd.....

Feels even worse than normal.

;)
 

·
Resident Curmudgeon
Joined
·
22,837 Posts
....and slow-witted when I'm in the F&I box. "What you just told me doesn't match what's in my notes. Let's go over this part again....
Now Ive got this Colombo image.....
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,801 Posts
Now Ive got this Colombo image.....
You are so on to me, ard.

A couple of deals ago, everything was set and I was walking away to sign the docs, and I turned and said, "Oh, and one more thing..." Got a free windshield sun shade tossed in. Thank you Colombo.

We had Basset Hounds when I was growing up. Colombo had one too, as I recall. Must be a deep psychic connection there.
 

·
Resident Curmudgeon
Joined
·
22,837 Posts
You are so on to me, ard.

A couple of deals ago, everything was set and I was walking away to sign the docs, and I turned and said, "Oh, and one more thing..." Got a free windshield sun shade tossed in. Thank you Colombo.

We had Basset Hounds when I was growing up. Colombo had one too, as I recall. Must be a deep psychic connection there.
Colombo would have walled out with an M5 Competition....

:angel:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
68 Posts
If you don't want the Maintenance, you can have that unwound for a refund. Dealers are not supposed to charge customers for pre-delivery prep, but they can charge a Doc fee. Many of us negotiate an offsetting discount on the Doc Fee because we don't want to hear all the BS about how they have to charge everyone the same fee. They can charge it, we can negotiate it away elsewhere in the deal.

As your candor reminds us all, don't sign until you understand what you're signing. And, when the slick Finance person 'splains everything, tell him/her to put it in writing. If they won't, time to call in the Sales Manager for a little chat. We have alllll the time in the world to get the docs done right. Always.
Maybe you didn't notice, but I did mention (twice now) that I got the $600 back. But not easily.

The first time, I had a phone convo with the Finance guy, where he proceeded to repeat what he had said to me in the office, which was a bunch of double-talk. I hung up, feeling confused and defeated. I started wondering whether it was just a line item where they had to put the value of the free maintenance. I then texted my sales guy to ask if the maintenance should cost $600. He said no. I then called BMW Financial Services, where they explained that the $600 was for some extra program where I'd get brake rotors and such. He said I signed for it and there wasn't anything he could do, I'd have to talk to the Finance guy. Again, feeling defeated, thinking well OK maybe it'll be worth it. Then I thought, wait, I've been leasing for 30 years and have never had to put on brake rotors! I then emailed the Finance guy and said I was still not happy about the $600 and that BMW FS told me I'd have to talk to him about it. Suddenly he was sorry for the confusion and would certainly refund my $600. Got the check and then started grumbling to myself that there was $72 interest I should've gotten. Was feeling defeated but then I thought, NO, he owes me 72 bucks!! I e-mailed him again and he sent me another check. So "getting it unwound for a refund" after you've signed is certainly no piece of cake.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,801 Posts
Maybe you didn't notice, but I did mention (twice now) that I got the $600 back. But not easily.

The first time, I had a phone convo with the Finance guy, where he proceeded to repeat what he had said to me in the office, which was a bunch of double-talk. I hung up, feeling confused and defeated. I started wondering whether it was just a line item where they had to put the value of the free maintenance. I then texted my sales guy to ask if the maintenance should cost $600. He said no. I then called BMW Financial Services, where they explained that the $600 was for some extra program where I'd get brake rotors and such. He said I signed for it and there wasn't anything he could do, I'd have to talk to the Finance guy. Again, feeling defeated, thinking well OK maybe it'll be worth it. Then I thought, wait, I've been leasing for 30 years and have never had to put on brake rotors! I then emailed the Finance guy and said I was still not happy about the $600 and that BMW FS told me I'd have to talk to him about it. Suddenly he was sorry for the confusion and would certainly refund my $600. Got the check and then started grumbling to myself that there was $72 interest I should've gotten. Was feeling defeated but then I thought, NO, he owes me 72 bucks!! I e-mailed him again and he sent me another check. So "getting it unwound for a refund" after you've signed is certainly no piece of cake.
Right. Well done. Sorry if I was unclear -- I meant to reinforce that it can be unwound after your last mention of it.

The point you make is that, with tenacity, mistakes can be corrected. It shouldn't be difficult, and BMW has put tremendous effort into customer satisfaction as a stated priority. Reality of the marketplace remains, as ever, buyer beware. And when they slip something past even the most aware buyer, it is important to do whatever is required to get it fixed. For the sake of others who will, hopefully, have an easier time in the future.
 
21 - 40 of 56 Posts
Top