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Discussion Starter #1
From what I gather, the 40e has a big bank of Samsung SDI 26 ah batteries located under the floor of the trunk, from which I get something like 18 miles of all-electric range (AER).

Here's a description in French (Chrome: Google Translate this), with pictures.

http://news.hybridlife.org/nouvelle-batterie-li-ion-pour-bmw-x5-xdrive-40e-30-de-capacite-supplementaire

Now here's the new Samsung SDI improvements from China's auto show and the NAIAS:

http://www.samsungsdi.com/sdi-news/1502.html

The press release is from two weeks ago.

Note what the screen over her shoulder says: "standard prismatic cell for easy upgrade to next generations." "Easy," in this case, is for the OEM and SCs, possibly, not for the end-users.

Still, look at the battery cells. If these are 26'es and the newer ones are 40's or 60's in the same form factor, is it likely that the bank of cells can be upgraded to maybe 35 miles of all-electric range (AER) in approximately 2019? Or maybe BMW will just introduce a 45e?

BMW is allowing an $8000 upgrade of existing i3 battery banks, but apparently not in North America. I wonder if it's going to be possible to upgrade a 40e?
 

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With a whole new X5 model due in 2018/2019 it seems doubtful that they would keep the same physical dimensions of the battery??.... One of the reasons I leased.
 

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Discussion Starter #3 (Edited)
With a whole new X5 model due in 2018/2019 it seems doubtful that they would keep the same physical dimensions of the battery??.... One of the reasons I leased.
Oh, I dunno. It's a standard-size battery module, only getting better. That's Samsung's thing. According to the French article, we have 96 of 'em under the floor. I don't know if that's true.

Think about the humble 9 volt (rectangle PP3) battery. Today's 9 volts are better durability, at a lower price, or are less toxic than your grandfather's 9 volt. But they're the same size as they were back in the day. They're not bigger.

For our 96 big, expensive EV modules, Samsung is trying to create a standard size, though each one is getting heavier. So you might take a 350lb BMW battery pack and make it weigh 425lbs, hypothetically. But it'll go twice as far. Maybe 18 kWh? It happens that another 75 lbs of battery isn't much for an X5, especially centered over the rear axle. Hell, my dogs weigh more than that.

A lot of people in the EV space regard BMWs as being for crackpots who haven't realized how good "real" EVs are. A lot of people in the BMW space regard EVs as being for crackpots who haven't realized how good BMWs are. :dunno: I get a kick out of being in the middle, not quite embraced by either side. Like that weird cousin from out-of-town you only see at weddings. Oh, sure, he's family, but...

Anyway, our EV "cousins" think upgrading battery packs is kinda normal, the way camera buffs upgrade their expensive lenses and sailors upgrade their GPS systems. It's just something you can do.

I don't have an opinion about whether it's a good idea, or whether it will be a good idea in 2019. I'm merely wondering if folks know it'll be possible. It might be.

If, say, BMW NA came along with a SKU in late '18 that offered a 35mi AER upgrade, plus an 8y/120,000 complete powertrain and electronics warranty for $7000 as a bundle, I'd probably give that a serious think.
 

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My local VW dealer says the e-Golfs coming off lease with the smaller batteries will be upgraded to the newer, longer range 2017 batteries. Will be interesting to see how they market them (CPO ?) if that is really true
 

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Discussion Starter #5 (Edited)
My local VW dealer says the e-Golfs coming off lease with the smaller batteries will be upgraded to the newer, longer range 2017 batteries. Will be interesting to see how they market them (CPO ?) if that is really true
Wow, upgrading the battery pack and warranty in tandem, via BMW's CPO mechanism is a really interesting idea. I hadn't thought of that. Clever approach.

For the BMW i3 upgrade in Germany, my understanding is that it's cash-on-the-barrelhead, like Dinan parts. You just walk in with a handful of deutsche marks (appox. USD$7,000) and your BMW CS upgrades your i3 battery pack to go 50% farther AER than the day it rolled off the assembly line. That 50% is AER bump #1. A lot of i3 owners are holding out for AER bump #2 in 2019, which will be like 100% farther than the original vehicle could go, and it'll be an upgrade option when the original battery will be a lot older. It may possibly get cheaper as well, a few years hence, as more battery manufacturing plants (e.g., the Tesla Gigafactory in Nevada) start to come online.

AER doesn't matter as much for us with PHEVs, because we effectively have infinite range and acceleration already. But ~35 mi of AER is definitely nice-to-have, and wrapping it with shiny new batteries (with maybe another ~4000 cycles before fading to 80%) and a shiny new warranty sounds like a good plan.

BMW NA? :hi: Hello?
 

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You just walk in with a handful of deutsche marks (appox. USD$7,000)
Sounds like you haven't been to Deutschland in a while... :)
 

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Well, yes. I wasn't being literal. Euros on a chip+pin card. LOL. :dunno:
I know you weren't. Or I figured you were just forward-thinking to later this year when Germany returns to using DMs again as soon as they approve Deutschexit...

;)
 

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Discussion Starter #11 (Edited)
The new x5 45E comes with 50 miles .I wonder if F15 would allow upgrade to this battery pack?
Tora & Alex, I'm not sure we'll see it, unfortunately. But it's nice of you to call my opinion visionary. That was 23 months ago, when I wrote that.

Honestly, as the months tick past, I've come to feel that maybe this is one place where BMW NA just simply doesn't get EV consumers. BMW marketing thinks they're selling performance/crafted volume vehicles, like 80's Audi Quattros, or like 90's VW GTIs, or like the many postwar Italian or British cars sold in North America. Meanwhile, all of BMW's modern competition has either become bulletproof and breathtaking (e.g., Honda Civic Type R, Tesla Model 3, one or two Acura variants); better, far cheaper, and faster (a few modern FIATs, the Kia Stinger, NISMO GT-R, WRX STI, etc.); or backed with an 8-10 year powertrain warranty (Tesla Model 3, Genesis, etc.). Volvo USA has famously introduced the "Volvo Parts and Labor Warranty" which means, as I understand it, when you pay to fix any non-consumable part at a Volvo dealer once, then you'll never pay to fix it again. For a car that most people keep for decade, that's a pretty attractive service warranty. That's before we get to the domestics. Ford, for example, just introduced a new Lincoln Aviator that's pretty much the next evolution of the BMW X5 45e, as near as I could tell from the NY Auto Show coverage.

In short: there are very few (high volume) vehicles with a price as high, and a warranty as short, as BMW. BMW had a four year head-start here. But now the pack has caught up.

A lot of people think my question was simply about upgrading the battery in a 40e or 530e. It was... but only kind of.

It was really about my willingness to plop the equivalent of 8-12 months of full "sticker price" car payments on the table, once, and then have both ~35 miles of AER and a decent warranty that takes this vehicle close to a decade of trouble-free driving... like, y'know, pretty much all of BMW's competitors.

I'm starting to seriously doubt I'll see BMW stand behind their PHEVs in such a fashion before I move to another brand.

Just one guy's opinion. Hope I'm wrong.
 

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The new x5 45E comes with 50 miles .I wonder if F15 would allow upgrade to this battery pack?
I am 99% certain this would not be remotely possible without some major changes to the F15. While these batteries get smaller and better each year, you are not going to get 2.5x the capacity in the same space. Which means there is no chance you could drop the new G05 battery "pack" into an F15 without significant changes in the bay that holds the batteries. It is most likely a different shape and at least somewhat larger in the G05 than the F15. Even if you could figure out how to fit the batteries in, the management system in the F15 may not even allow the new batteries to work.

BMW has virtually nothing to gain by making the old F15 compatible with the new batteries, so they aren't going to take any efforts to enable this. I am personally in the boat of wanting to refresh my SUV/SAV every couple of years anyway, and the improvements in the G05 PHEV model address the exact two issues I had with the F15 40e - AER and performance. They nearly tripled the AEV and the performance (0-60 in low 5 sec range) is pretty significantly improved, if the press reports match reality.

Combined with the other improvements (interior and exterior), I am very much looking forward to moving to the G05 in about a year. Hopefully that will be enough time for them to work out any initial model introduction kinks.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
I am 99% certain... you are not going to get 2.5x the capacity in the same space.
Yes you would. You would get exactly that. Did you even read the thread? That is exactly what Samsung SDI (the OEM) says they did. They put 2.3x the capacity into the very same size battery form-factor, the battery modules that seem to be in use here.

BMW has virtually nothing to gain by making the old F15 compatible with the new batteries, so they aren't going to take any efforts to enable this.
Now with this I concur, unfortunately. The widespread channel perception seems to be that affluent EV drivers will upgrade to a new BMW PHEV every few years. And this, IMHO, is where BMW has a massive blind spot.

The first 40e units are coming off lease en masse just now. So the scale of what I believe to be a mistake may become clear shortly. It might be better to keep us all happy in our cars for eight years, than to get most of ***8216;em back.

Time will tell.
 

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Yes you would. You would get exactly that. Did you even read the thread? That is exactly what Samsung SDI (the OEM) says they did. They put 2.3x the capacity into the very same size battery form-factor, the battery modules that seem to be in use here.

2.3x the current F15's 18 mile AER gets you to less than 42, almost 20% shy of the new G05's supposed 50 mile range. So I'm not sure how you equate this to "exactly" the increase in range with the same cell size/space. The G05 has about 2.78x the AER of the F15.

And yes, I read the thread (for the most part). There is prognostication from you about two years ago that if BMW goes with these new batteries the F15 could go up to 35 miles of AER. I didn't read anything in this thread that said Samsung increased capacity by 2.3x. Which post states that? My eyes are getting old, I must have missed that (even with re-skimming all of the posts just now).

On second thought, never mind. Since I'm apparently not reading the details here closely enough to voice my 2cents, I will just opt out of this discussion altogether. I didn't mean to ruffle feathers...
 

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I totally agree. It doesn’t make much sense to have an expensive car such us the 40e completely outdated (in relation to its comparables) in such a short period of time (three years at most).

I assume that once the financing expires (Select), nobody will want to exercise the option, unless you can upgrade the batteries and get more mileage. Would BMW want massive returns of this car? Did they sell lots of units of this model?

I bought this car last month with a significant discount, but I deliberately financed it with BMW Financial Services and decided to leave a very high last payment (optional). I assumed that I will not exercise the option and return the car because technology will have evolved so much that the car will not be very valuable...

... unless you can replace the batteries at a reasonable price.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
And yes, I read the thread (for the most part)... I didn't read anything in this thread that said Samsung increased capacity by 2.3x...
Yeah, you're right. I'm wrong. Sorry.

It's indeed suggested in the thread, but pretty obscure. You'd have to be eagle-eyed to see it, and I'd forgotten the details over the past two years. You're right to not care.

Follow the Samsung link, look at the pic of the woman, and then read the graphics on the wall behind her. It's actually pretty obvious there. Samsung SDI's innovations and claims from the auto shows were ubiquitous in the EV forums at the time, and can still be found on the internet. The ~2.3x more dense battery modules are also believed to be the backbone of the BMW i3 upgrade path in Europe, never offered here.

Anyways, from that French publication, it seems our 40e batteries are the 26 Ah variant. The ones that should be OEMed by now are no doubt approaching the 60 Ah variant they'd promised two years ago, and in very nearly the same form-factor. That alone explains much of the 45e specs, which are pretty much what I'd predicted.

Anyways: Mea culpa. Not obvious in this thread, though quite a bit discussed at the time. Apologies.
 

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My X5 40e comes off lease the end of July. It'll be added to the heap of 40e's coming off lease. Actually hate to see it go but with the new policy on lessee's buying their car there's no sense in keeping it.

The aftermarket will figure out a way to replace the battery packs at some point. Count on it. Heck, once the battery packs lose their efficiency, it'd be better to yank them out and save weight.
 

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I think when 40e will come of from the lease.BMW will have a problem to resell it with the same battery pack.I think they will come up with some options to replace battery with new and bigger one other wise it will be a big loose for BMW.
It will also includes future models as well.
Want to know what do you guys think about that?
 

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They are coming off lease right now and selling for a pretty penny from what I've seen. I don't know why, but they are commanding premium prices for CPO versions.
 
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