[Alex Baumann]

What other vehicles (vehicle that we are familiar with in the US) can you get in Germany for the same price as a 330ci?

Audi A4, A6, Mercedes C-, CLK, SLK, E-Class, Jaguar X- and S-Type, Lexus IS, Cadillac CTS.

 

[beewang]

I know that German companies don't have to pay income tax on revenues that come from sales outside of German. This probably helps BMW sell the cars cheaper here in the US.

Does anyone know if this still holds true for sales outside of German but still in the EU?

OTOH, German Companies w/ subs in US MUST pay income tax to US and to the state they are based at (of course, unless the state does not collect income tax).
This pretty much wipes out your argument on tax savings.

The real reason behind the pricing dicotomy is primarily due to "what economist refer to as "Market segmentation". You know the same term used by media and politicians as "DUMPING".

Now, I don't want to get into a discussion of "how is BMW dumping cars into US?". They are not, and neither are memory chip makers in SE Asia, nor are the Shirimp Fishermens in Chile. It is a market segmentation that occurs under normal competitive market. And it benefits all consumers like you and I.

beewang :bigpimp:

 

[gene2598]

Yeah, but the exchange rate is so crappy now (from our point of view) that that isn't really a fair comparison.

even if the exchange rate was 1:1, the price of 37,000 US Dollars for a stock, no option 330ci is higher than what we pay in the US.

 

[gene2598]

Interesting, but not really fair to use US dollars due to the exchange rate. That is unless the average income went down in the EU at the same rate the value of the US dollar declined. :dunno:

--SONET

Actually, Germans on average make FAR LESS than Americans. So, even if you don't take into account the exchange rate they pay outrageous prices for a new BMW. Also take into account that it cost about 1000.00 euros to get your liscense and their gas prices are through the roof (1.09 euros per litre. 3.6 litres per gallon)

Sometimes I am surprised that they can afford to drive at all. Then again, as my father in law says, many cars are actually company cars.

 

[andy_thomas]

I don't know why it shouldn't be fair to use the exchange rates.

The best bet is to use a time-based average. The problem is, how do you agree on the time elapsed? Even over one year (which is plenty enough for BMW USA to have adjusted its pricing) the rate would be quite a bit more than 1 dollar per euro. So even on this basis, it is quite fair to highlight the US pricing as considerably lower than the German pricing.

Some economists argue that this "big mac test" should not apply, even if the product is mostly identical, and that the cost of the car as a proportion of disposable income should be used as a test of affordability. On this basis, the generally higher incomes and low taxes paid by US residents gives them a further advantage, over every other nation in fact, not just Germany. So, from now on, no whinging about the price of BMWs in the US please .

 

[Jim H]

Actually, Germans on average make FAR LESS than Americans. So, even if you don't take into account the exchange rate they pay outrageous prices for a new BMW. Also take into account that it cost about 1000.00 euros to get your liscense and their gas prices are through the roof (1.09 euros per litre. 3.6 litres per gallon)

Sometimes I am surprised that they can afford to drive at all. Then again, as my father in law says, many cars are actually company cars.

Another thing to remember is that lots of European families only have ONE car, not two or three or more. If my family only had one car, I'd be able to have a damn nice car. Of course, there's no public transportation to speak of to take up the slack here.

 

[solsurfr]

When I did ED last January, I did see quite a few bimmers but I saw a ton of Audi's. I think I see more bimmers here in the US than I did in Germany. I also saw a ton of benz/bimmer wagons too. BMW still seemed luxury to me over there.

 

[LDV330i]

I don't know why it shouldn't be fair to use the exchange rates.

I've just tried to demonstrate how much money I would have to pay to buy this particular 330Ci in Germany as of February 13, 2005.

If a US citizen were to move to Germany today and buy the above spec'd 330Ci (no military sales), this would be the amount of USD he/she would have to bring along. Of course there's still a 6-12% sales allowance, if you are good at bargaining.

I think people were asking how people view BMW within their own market. In Germany, is a 318i in the same price range as an Audi 4 2.0? Or is x% higher just because it is a BMW?:dunno:

 

[Blax]

I have lived on a few different continents, and the US is definitely the cheapest place to buy a BMW. And gas btw.

In answer to the initial question, my dad was buying a car while living in the Netherlands, and his choices were a 5 series or an E class. He was convinced by the locals to get the 5, since as an important businessman he did not want to be 'mistaken for a taxi driver'.

Both in Europe and in other countries like Australia, these cars are company cars, and the car a person can get is based on the position the person has. The position often will specify a specific model of car (which ties the value of the perc to the inflation rate accurately) and an employee can get that specific car or another one which does not cost more. I believe I read recently that 60% of 3 series sold in the UK are company cars.

 

[Roadhawk]

Remember - 330 is upper end of the 3 series line...most 3's you see in Europe are not 330s (and in part because the tax on hp)...also - most folks drive smaller cars in Europe - little hatchbacks are the most common. Sur eyou see a lot of BMWs. Mercedes and Audis (especially Audis)...but compared to what I see in/around DC and in other urban areas in the States - the % or really nice new high end cars in Europe is much less (excepting perhaps beach/gambling resorts - that sort of thing). Obviously BMW is a premium make...but (frm talking to many folks in various trips over there) I got the feeling that Audi may be considered more premium in a sense - and at least equal performance wise. And I have to say - I rarely was passed on the Autobahn last summer - but when I was it was more often then not by an Audi wagon! Yeah...(and often some diesel to boot!) (I even saw an Audi diesel badged as an S4 - and with all the right trim etc...I took some pics so I have proof!)

Another observation - I couldn't believe the number of new Mazda 6 wagons. When I was last in Europe I saw very few Mazdas - but they are everywhere now. Well I got to thinking - the 6 is a very nice car - it really is...and in Europe they love wagons (Avants/Touring - what have you) - and the 6 is likely priced much lower then an Audi A4 or BMW 3 series wagon (or een a SAAB or Volvo most likely)...with as much or more interior/cargo room...so I could see the attraction...

 

[andy_thomas]

I think people were asking how people view BMW within their own market. In Germany, is a 318i in the same price range as an Audi 4 2.0? Or is x% higher just because it is a BMW?:dunno:

The base prices are about the same. BMW's options pricing is pretty uncompetitive, though, so after you've loaded it up with a few options it comes out more expensive, more often than not.

 

[andy_thomas]

Obviously BMW is a premium make...but (frm talking to many folks in various trips over there) I got the feeling that Audi may be considered more premium in a sense - and at least equal performance wise. And I have to say - I rarely was passed on the Autobahn last summer - but when I was it was more often then not by an Audi wagon!

Some might say that is because they have a lot more to prove . On the continent I am rarely passed by a high-speed BMW; Golfs, Audis and the occasional Merc seem to be the most aggressively driven cars.

Yeah...(and often some diesel to boot!) (I even saw an Audi diesel badged as an S4 - and with all the right trim etc...I took some pics so I have proof!)

Well, there you go. If you can't have the S4, you can have the badge (although note that unlike ///M, some Audis are factory-supplied with 'S' trim and suspension, and a liberal application of 'S' badging to the rear).

 

[Da5Id]

I lived and worked in Germany for about a year back in 1996/97. Interviewed for a job where one of the perks was a 5 series company car. Didn't take that job though. The company I ended up working for rented an Opel for me. I drove about 85 miles one-way to work every day. Most cars on the road are VW's, Opels, Volvos, lower end Audi's etc. You do see a pretty large amount of BMW's and MB's as well. I used to get my little Opel up to 110 - 120 mph pretty often, although it felt a bit light at those speeds to say the least.

 

[Roadhawk]

Yeah Andy - I hear ya.

Its funny though - I find that I am driving the 330 more agressivly then the S4...on average...I just get lazy in the S4 - its so easy...though folks may think I'm hammering on - as it doesn't take much...when in the 330 I love redlining and pushing it...part of it is its high revving nature where I don't need to push the Audi much for it to get out. I also find that I tend to cruise at higher speeds in the Bimmer...its just so very smooth and you don't feel it at all - not that the Audi is bad there - but the BMW is definatly smoother (less sensation of high speed) into the trips. Still I wail on the S4 as well...out on the highway and around town...just can't help myself sometimes...

 

[norihaga]

The base prices are about the same. BMW's options pricing is pretty uncompetitive, though, so after you've loaded it up with a few options it comes out more expensive, more often than not.

What happens if you compare the prices without VAT, though? Or for a two year old car?

 

[KingLemmiwinks]

BMW NA a sub?

OTOH, German Companies w/ subs in US MUST pay income tax to US and to the state they are based at (of course, unless the state does not collect income tax).
This pretty much wipes out your argument on tax savings.

The real reason behind the pricing dicotomy is primarily due to "what economist refer to as "Market segmentation". You know the same term used by media and politicians as "DUMPING".

Now, I don't want to get into a discussion of "how is BMW dumping cars into US?". They are not, and neither are memory chip makers in SE Asia, nor are the Shirimp Fishermens in Chile. It is a market segmentation that occurs under normal competitive market. And it benefits all consumers like you and I.

beewang :bigpimp:

Is BMW North America a subsidary? I though that BMW NA is complete indepent of BMW AG.

 

[gene2598]

Remember - 330 is upper end of the 3 series line...most 3's you see in Europe are not 330s (and in part because the tax on hp)...also - most folks drive smaller cars in Europe - little hatchbacks are the most common. Sur eyou see a lot of BMWs. Mercedes and Audis (especially Audis)...but compared to what I see in/around DC and in other urban areas in the States - the % or really nice new high end cars in Europe is much less (excepting perhaps beach/gambling resorts - that sort of thing). Obviously BMW is a premium make...but (frm talking to many folks in various trips over there) I got the feeling that Audi may be considered more premium in a sense - and at least equal performance wise. And I have to say - I rarely was passed on the Autobahn last summer - but when I was it was more often then not by an Audi wagon! Yeah...(and often some diesel to boot!) (I even saw an Audi diesel badged as an S4 - and with all the right trim etc...I took some pics so I have proof!)

Another observation - I couldn't believe the number of new Mazda 6 wagons. When I was last in Europe I saw very few Mazdas - but they are everywhere now. Well I got to thinking - the 6 is a very nice car - it really is...and in Europe they love wagons (Avants/Touring - what have you) - and the 6 is likely priced much lower then an Audi A4 or BMW 3 series wagon (or een a SAAB or Volvo most likely)...with as much or more interior/cargo room...so I could see the attraction...

I know, as Americans, we give diesels a bad rap, but the technology and performance of Diesels have come a long way. I seriously thought about getting my 330 as a diesel, but then I found out that BMW doesn't offer the 330cd for the US market. Sound, smell, black-clouds, and performance aren't issues anymore. Only ones that I've seen here that do have that problem are those that the owners have not taken care of.

 

[FenPhen]

Sound, smell, black-clouds, and performance aren't issues anymore.

Emissions, though, still pose a problem. Europe has less strict emissions regulations. (Diesels still emit a lot of a particular kind of pollution, nitrogen-something?)

 

[Roadhawk]

I know, as Americans, we give diesels a bad rap, but the technology and performance of Diesels have come a long way. I seriously thought about getting my 330 as a diesel, but then I found out that BMW doesn't offer the 330cd for the US market. Sound, smell, black-clouds, and performance aren't issues anymore. Only ones that I've seen here that do have that problem are those that the owners have not taken care of.

Yeah understand completely. 330cd is a kick butt car and would be very tempting if offered in the states. Still I prefer the responsiveness (rev wise...) of a normal petrol engine. (but if it came to it I think I could live with & enjoy the car - very much so...after all - its still a BMW! :thumbup: ) And yeah - I am still not used to diesels chugging by me at triple digit speeds...something about it still doesn't compute even though I know what you say to be true...

 

[MG67]

When I worked for Cisco Systems in Germany I had a BMW 320i which was a leased company car. Many higher end luxury cars in Germany and the Netherlands are leased. Taxi's are Mercedes because they won't wear out that fast
I configured my 2003 Touring in Germany and came out around 39,000 euro same options about $48,000. In the Netherlands, it was almost 63,000 euros or $78,000 because of the 42% BPM (VAT) :tsk:

Also calculate that people in Europe lost almost 50% of their savings because of the conversion from German Marks or Guilders to the Euro so a BMW is a really expensive high end car for most people...