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Is the Z3 unfairly classed by SCCA? Please read

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Almost certainly yes.

Just like almost all other BMWs.

Don't hold your breath (and no I haven't bothered to open that link.)
Basically, any modded 6 cylinder Z3 (M and non-M) gets put into ASP. They should have some allowance for the non-Ms (BSP?), but they haven't changed the classification in years. It's why I stopped going go SCCA events and sticking with the BMW CCA events.
Nick325xiT 5spd said:
Almost certainly yes.

Just like almost all other BMWs.

Don't hold your breath (and no I haven't bothered to open that link.)
rum, think about it - in the CCA autocrosses, are 2.3 Z3s in the same class as M Roadsters? Nope. They are in the SCCA events.
rumratt said:
Is the problem that the Z3 (and BMW's in general) are truely placed in the wrong SCCA classes, or is it just that there will always be over and underdogs and the BMW's happen to get the short end of the stick.
where do you think they should be classed and why? :dunno:
I think the non M's should be split out of ASP and be placed in BSP where can can be competitive. In addition to the reasons stated in the following thread,

http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=320701

it should be noted that while the update/backdate provision is a key feature of the street prepared class, there are many "single model" cars in SP since that can't make use of the feature, but they are placed there because that is where they can compete.
Speak for your own CCA chapter...each one is different. Even so, a marque specific club usually has the flexability to have much finer granularity since the vast majority of participation would be expected to be cars of that marque.

The SCCA doesn't have that luxury.
WileECoyote said:
rum, think about it - in the CCA autocrosses, are 2.3 Z3s in the same class as M Roadsters? Nope. They are in the SCCA events.
I don't think that car would be all that competitive in BSP either.....
ronsz3 said:
I think the non M's should be split out of ASP and be placed in BSP where can can be competitive.
True, they don't, but the should actually readjust based on scoring. The real problem is that the SP classes are too broad in what's allowed, so basically, if you go to an SP class, you really have to do everything to your car that's allowed, and that's a lotta bucks. Most BMWs also don't fit into the Street Touring classes, unless you autocross in an M BMW, it's not worth it.

Hell, a few years ago I autocrossed an e46 328i and I was classed in BS with Miatas. WTF is up with that???

NJ CCA Chapter uses the Boston Chapter's classifications. They set up a points system for all Beemers (I know, that's what I prefer to use), and then there are additions for each mod. From there, the score is tallied and it determines your class. Non Beemers use SCCA ratings, and all of 'em are Paxed for the winner.

Of course, it requires people to be honest about their mods, but our chapter is friendly enough that it's never really a problem (except for that e30 with the M motor last year :) )
·clyde· said:
Speak for your own CCA chapter...each one is different. Even so, a marque specific club usually has the flexability to have much finer granularity since the vast majority of participation would be expected to be cars of that marque.

The SCCA doesn't have that luxury.
Sounds like this might better meet your wants. I'm debating whether to do the two that are going to be near me. With my RX-8 set up to limits (or near them) of the SCCA SII Stock rules, I'll have just enough points to bump myslef into a class where I'd be competing with rally cars (STi/Evo) that can legally adjust their boost. What's the point? :dunno:

Like pretty much all sorts of motorsports, not every eligble car out there can be competitve. There can only be a limited number of classes and some cars just aren't going to be a good fit in any of them. Point level systems border on silly, IMO, for any serious level of competition. If the SCCA went to such a system, people would still b:tch and moan about how their cars and their competitiors cars are classed at the basic level AND they'd start bitching about point levels. Some cars will respond to certain mods a hell of a lot better than others. The serious competitors will use the new rules to their advantage. In the end, everyone will still have the same things to b:tch about that they have today plus a whole lot more. Most classes will still have a dominating car or two along with a bunch of unhappy people in also rans.

The Z3 1.9 can be run in STS2 (thanks, TeamM3 :D). Most (all?) 3ers can be run in STX. The E30 M3 can run in STX. The E36 M3 can run in STU.

After three years of doing this and making the jump to a semi-serious National effort this year, I've figured out a few things.

1) If you want to be serious, be serious. That means choosing a car for its competitive potential and being prepared to sell and replace with something different if the class makeup shifts.

2) If you don't want to be serious, don't sweat the small sh:t. If you're not serious about making an effort to do well against the best drivers that are driving the best cars in class, why worry about classing at all? Driver skill is going to be the determining factor 99% of the time.

3) Once you make your decision about being serious, stick with it. You will only upset yourself if you change mid course.
WileECoyote said:
True, they don't, but the should actually readjust based on scoring. The real problem is that the SP classes are too broad in what's allowed, so basically, if you go to an SP class, you really have to do everything to your car that's allowed, and that's a lotta bucks. Most BMWs also don't fit into the Street Touring classes, unless you autocross in an M BMW, it's not worth it.

Hell, a few years ago I autocrossed an e46 328i and I was classed in BS with Miatas. WTF is up with that???

NJ CCA Chapter uses the Boston Chapter's classifications. They set up a points system for all Beemers (I know, that's what I prefer to use), and then there are additions for each mod. From there, the score is tallied and it determines your class. Non Beemers use SCCA ratings, and all of 'em are Paxed for the winner.

Of course, it requires people to be honest about their mods, but our chapter is friendly enough that it's never really a problem (except for that e30 with the M motor last year :) )
That's just it. We've sorta come full circle here - I chose the cars I own because I like them and afterward I chose to autocross. I gave up on the SCCA system because it unfairly classifies Z3s, and up until recently, the 3 series cars. Even then, all the ST classes aren't universal to all SCCA chapters - in the past, some have not chosen to run them all. I gave up on the SCCA because of what I believe is a classification system. I sthere are a lot of people who gave up for the same reasons, rather than fight the system.

I have to disagree with you about that 99% number. I'd say it's more 70/30. In cars equipped similarly, I'd agree, but not when the classifications are so out of whack as to make it impossible unless you're totally committed to it mentally and, more importantly, finalcially. A somewhat modded 2.8 Z3 just won't cut it against a modded Rx-7 or kit-car Cobra. They're not in the same league. An M roadster or Coupe might be, but not a regular Z3.

Hell, I won ASP one year, but that was only because I attended almost twice as many events as anyone else in the field. I ran a bunch of events by myself in ASP, but as soon as others attended, I got whupped heavily.
·clyde· said:
Most (all?) 3ers can be run in STX. The E30 M3 can run in STX. The E36 M3 can run in STU.

2) If you don't want to be serious, don't sweat the small sh:t. If you're not serious about making an effort to do well against the best drivers that are driving the best cars in class, why worry about classing at all? Driver skill is going to be the determining factor 99% of the time.
When were the 3ers unfairly classed? The non-M E46 has been in D Stock since the Stock reorganization for 2002 and started to do quite well once someone made a serious effort at campagning one. Non-M E36s took 5 of 6 trophy positions and 8 of the top 10 slots in DSP at Topeka this past September. As the E46s age and people start putting in the money to run them in DSP (assuming no other class changes), it's not unreasonable to expect them to do well there once they're devleoped.

FWIW, I agree that most of the Z3 line (the Z4 now too, for that matter) is semi screwed, but they are far from the only cars in that position. There is a way to work on getting that fixed, but it takes an effort. If you aren't prepaed to make that effort, you shouldn't hold it against the club/SEB. There's the cliche of "you can't fight city hall," and in some cases it may be true, but you certainly can't win if you don't try. Some SEB and xAC members have been very vocal on various forums and mail lists about this... sounding off on board and lists doesn't do anything. If you want to be heard, write a letter/email to the SEB and explain your reasoning.

As you say it comes back full circle...if you want to be serious, be serious. If you don't, there's nothing stopping you from going out and having a good time challenging yourself and your car. Locally, I still think that the driver is worth well more than 70%, but there's no way to change our subjective opinions into objective facts. :eek:

Regarding ST classes, what the regions do isn't mandated by the Naitonal office. There is plenty that the SEB and National office have to answer for, but what the regions do isn't one of them. The regions are free to do what they please when it comes to both rules and classing. WHile some regions may not run ST classes at all, some have developed ST classes that are parallel to the other R comp allowed classes and they have seen some popular success.
WileECoyote said:
That's just it. We've sorta come full circle here - I chose the cars I own because I like them and afterward I chose to autocross. I gave up on the SCCA system because it unfairly classifies Z3s, and up until recently, the 3 series cars. Even then, all the ST classes aren't universal to all SCCA chapters - in the past, some have not chosen to run them all. I gave up on the SCCA because of what I believe is a classification system. I sthere are a lot of people who gave up for the same reasons, rather than fight the system.

I have to disagree with you about that 99% number. I'd say it's more 70/30. In cars equipped similarly, I'd agree, but not when the classifications are so out of whack as to make it impossible unless you're totally committed to it mentally and, more importantly, finalcially. A somewhat modded 2.8 Z3 just won't cut it against a modded Rx-7 or kit-car Cobra. They're not in the same league. An M roadster or Coupe might be, but not a regular Z3.

Hell, I won ASP one year, but that was only because I attended almost twice as many events as anyone else in the field. I ran a bunch of events by myself in ASP, but as soon as others attended, I got whupped heavily.
I was talking e30s, which couldn't join any of the ST classes until last year. To claify, the ones with a viscous limited slip were SOL.
·clyde· said:
When were the 3ers unfairly classed? The non-M E46 has been in D Stock since the Stock reorganization for 2002 and started to do quite well once someone made a serious effort at campagning one.
Again. Write the SEB.

I've asked them to move the E46 M3 to BSP, myself. (Given that BSP legal E36es are much lighter with over 300hp, I still don't think it'd be an overdog.)
What pisses me off more is that I can't seem to get any track time in my local area because of the requirement for a true roll bar on my M Roadster. Unfortunately, my understanding is that I have to forego using my convertible top if I install a true roll bar. :mad:

Maybe my information is wrong, but the last time I looked into it, that's what I was told. :dunno:

Does anyone know a good way around these issues? :(
Yeah.

Buy a car that isn't incredibly dangerous to use on the track.

For some reason some of the clubs around here allow unprepared 'verts on the track. I feel really bad for instructors who have to deal with yahoos in those cars.
Razorbak said:
What pisses me off more is that I can't seem to get any track time in my local area because of the requirement for a true roll bar on my M Roadster. Unfortunately, my understanding is that I have to forego using my convertible top if I install a true roll bar. :mad:

Maybe my information is wrong, but the last time I looked into it, that's what I was told. :dunno:

Does anyone know a good way around these issues? :(
I have a hardtop already, and I'd love to put a rollbar in my roadster, but I'd like to maintain the functionality of the top. Do you know of any available rollbar kits that will allow that option?
Nick325xiT 5spd said:
Yeah.

Buy a car that isn't incredibly dangerous to use on the track.

For some reason some of the clubs around here allow unprepared 'verts on the track. I feel really bad for instructors who have to deal with yahoos in those cars.
Have you called Kirk Racing, and Autopower?

After that, try contacting the various race shops. TC Kline, Road Race Tech, Bimmerworld, etc.

A removable hard top is not particularly safe. If you rollover, it can still come off relatively easily.
Razorbak said:
I have a hardtop already, and I'd love to put a rollbar in my roadster, but I'd like to maintain the functionality of the top. Do you know of any available rollbar kits that will allow that option?
No, I haven't tried those options yet. Thanks for the suggestions.

I only mentioned the removable hard top because it is one of the requirements, in addition to the rollbar, that the local club stipulates before allowing convertibles in track events.
Nick325xiT 5spd said:
Have you called Kirk Racing, and Autopower?

After that, try contacting the various race shops. TC Kline, Road Race Tech, Bimmerworld, etc.

A removable hard top is not particularly safe. If you rollover, it can still come off relatively easily.
OR, join a competition that's a little more balanced (aka my local CCA chapter).
Nick325xiT 5spd said:
Again. Write the SEB.
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