M3 boys: your "clunk" is pretty famous.

Here's what I don't get.

BMW has been selling cars here for years. It knows that American consumers prize refinement-- and in a 50k+ car a clunk sound would just be unacceptable (i bet there's many in europe who feel the same way too). BMW also has promoted its "sound engineering" lab recently-- if they have such a great facility-- why do they let things like clunks and rattles escape? Despite this- it always seems like BMW is shocked and bewildered that customers would find something like a clunk unacceptable on a 50k car. Sometimes, it makes you just want to slap some sense into their senior officers. Fortunately, BMW eventually will get a lot of bad press about this-- and that's when they'll listen and find a way to improve the design so it doesn't clunk. It just seems like it would be so much easier to just listen to and even anticipate customers needs just a little better.

And yeah, yeah-- BMW's arent' Lexuses, they're all about performance especially the M3-- blah, blah, blah. The point is, on a car that is not being sold specifically as a race car, unrefined sounds are unacceptable to consumers in any car at any price range these days. And, BMW's have never been about all out performace -- they've always been about striking a good balance beteen luxury and peformance. Luxury= no clunks. Enough said.

I do not post this type of messages, but I just could not help myself this time:

Robg -- I think you need to learn a little more about BMW's history. I have couple of good books I can recommend, if you are interested, PM me and I will send you the titles.

I of course not trying to defend BMW for that particular clunk, but M cars are not for luxury at all, they are race cars adapted for road use and not vice versa.

glaws said:

I have listened to the clunk for some time now. To me it sounds like a normal 6spd Getrag sound. By normal I mean: no grinding, metal to metal contact or anything that sounds like it is about to break. I just ignore it and drive.

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Well, be careful here. There are 2 clunk sounds. One is the Getrag sound. The other is a clunk from the diff. This is the clunk that worries people. Especially with reports of blown diffs here and there...

Clunk

I have only had my M3 for two weeks now. Just had the 1200 mile service. The service manager said that everlything looked fine. Talked to hom at length about the clunk. He said he had never seen a diff failure in his shop. Two possible explanations for the clunk: drivetain slop ( a little) and a little more clearance than usual built into to the gears in the box for "aggresive driving" so that the gears don't heat up and lock.

atyclb said:

anyone with an M3: make sure you get the right (SAF-XJ) diff. fluid at your 1200 mile service!

There was quite a bit of discussion on .org about this and many speculate that this was the source of diff failures. There were MANY dealerships putting in non-LSD diff fluid in our LSD diffs.

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Actually, I'd like to take the opportunity to thank you for bringing that up in an attempt to clarify what fuild needs to be used and Jon for letting us know the part #, etc. :thumb:

I scheduled my 1,200mile service for next Tuesday (I'll certainly hit 1,200 miles over the weekend), and "searched the archives" for the exact part number you and Jon posted. I'll make sure they use that fluid in my car...

Thanks guys! :thumb:

Flying Toaster--

I know quite a bit about BMWs and BMW's history. I've read several books on it--I could probably regurgitate most models and BMWs origins, factories, etc, subrscribe to the Roundel, lived in Munich (and knew people who worked for BMW AG), have gone on the factory tour several times, etc.

While BMW has always been involved in various forms of racing, and they do make sporty and sports cars--their main focus is on building cars that provide a balance of performance and comfort. While the M3 is much more of a sports car than other BMW models, it is still a luxury vehicle-- witness the leather 14 way power seats, 50k list price, 3500 lb curb weight, available nav system, availability as a convertible, automatic air conditioning, premium stereo system, etc. Most buyers, especially in the US, expect no compromises in terms of refinement in this type of car. If BMW built a stripped down racing version of the M3-- with minimal padding, no power windows or A/C, etc... I think people would expect it to be a pure race car with little refinement and buyers would expect things like clunks or gear whine, etc. But the M3 in its current form is really more of a GT car. And, customers rightfully expect such a car to be refined-- without jarring noises like clunks or whines.

ANyway, this is the type of debate that may turn into an ugly flame war and that certainly is not my intention. I love BMWs -- and I think the M3 is a great piece of work- it out performs and out-coddles most everything else on the road-- including cars costing twice the price. I just think that BMW needs to be more realistic when it comes to consumer expectations of its cars. And I also believe that with all of the engineering talent that I KNOW BMW has- they can engineer an M differential that doesn't clunk-- with the same performance. I also happen to think that the best way of improving BMW and BMWs is not by defending and agreeing with everything they do and make- but by pushing them on their weaknesses so that they improve.

Hey guys,

I understand where both of you are coming from and respect very much both opinions. It would be ideal if we had the best of both Worlds - performance + luxury + no clunks, etc. However, the World is not perfect...

So, no matter how expensive or luxurious a car is, there'll always be flaws (maybe I'm being too pessimistic, realistic?)... Personally, I really don't mind the clunk (again it would be great if it wasn't there)... I think it's a small thing E46 M3 owners can live with despite of how expensive the car is... Now, diffs. blowing is a different story and I really hope that doesn't happen. If it happens, I hope BMW fixes it "for good". If it recurs, then that's a flaw you can't overlook in $50K+ car, and BMW may never see my business again (heck, you guys know how much I love these cars, I'm one of the few who actually like the E65! )...

Anyway, trust me, when you get behind the wheel of an M3, the last thing you think of is the clunk...

Just my .02...

ALEX325i said:

Anyway, trust me, when you get behind the wheel of an M3, the last thing you think of is the clunk...

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Definitely not hard to believe.

BTW, I dig the E65 as well. =)

I agree with most of the previous comments. In addition both this board and roadfly are what statisticians call a "self interested group" We all have just one focus when we post on this board and are, therefore, useless for sampling purposes. Human nature plays a part, also. Nobody is going to post "I drove my car again today and nothing went wrong". For me, this is the near perfect car. My motto is "it clunks - live with it"

webguy330i said:

Definitely not hard to believe.

BTW, I dig the E65 as well. =)

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Hey Mr. B.,

How's it going? Hope all is well! I heard the winter in NY has not been too bad this year... :thumb:

ALEX325i said:

Hey Mr. B.,

How's it going? Hope all is well! I heard the winter in NY has not been too bad this year... :thumb:

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You're not joking; it's been spring all winter here. =) My snow tires haven't been of much use, although the few days when there was snow would have been hell on the pilot sports!

All is well in the land called Crotchester. How's everything with you besides this clunk? Had a chance to toast anyone on the open road? =)

webguy330i said:

You're not joking; it's been spring all winter here. =) My snow tires haven't been of much use, although the few days when there was snow would have been hell on the pilot sports!

All is well in the land called Crotchester. How's everything with you besides this clunk? Had a chance to toast anyone on the open road? =)

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No, still taking it easy... Hopefully I will (pretty sure I will) hit 1,200 miles over the weekend. I'm taking it for the 1,200mile service next Tuesday. From that point on, I'll start "driving" my baby whenever I get a chance... :thumb:

An E39 M perspective...(lengthy)

You want flames? THIS will draw flames, but hey, it's MY experience and MY preferences. If you do read, I don't ask you to agree:

I reluctantly drove an M5 in December while shopping for our E46 (3 WEEKS 'till delivery! WoooHoo!) I was reluctant 'cause I didn't want to hop into my 540 afterwards and absolutely hate it from that day on. What did I find?

The M5 was fast - don't get me wrong. Chirping 3rd at speed was great. The LSD was also fun- willing to alllow me to steer with the rear wheels any time I chose. The salesman was fun, too. He let me do everything I wanted to this CPO '01 as he hoped I would have to go home with it, too. By the time I exited the car, my heart rate was soaring and I knew I'd just driven in a race car. My wife was in the back seat and she summed it up, "Wow! THAT'S a race car!" I felt the same way the first time I drove a 540i6.

And then, I got back into our 2000 540i6. I was anxious to drive it and compare. First thing I noticed? quiet. I can HEAR my engine and SuperSprint exhaust, but not like you can in that M5. My wife and I can hear each other talk in the 540. (She's a quiet one, and I'm pretty deaf.)

Next thing? Not as fast. Duh- but if I don't mention it, someone else will. No chirpping 3rd, but still plenty fast. I was surprised to find my car just as fast as I remembered it.

Last: Just as firm with aftermarket suspension. Same feeling over the same speed bumps, same feel on the turns, but w/o rear wheel steering. I DID say this was my experience, didn't I?

We went to dinner that night with my brother and his wife, and it was confirmed again: With four people, the 540 will go where you put it and everyone gets to talk like they're at a dinner table.

So, I agree with AutoWeek when they gave the nod to the 540 as the 'best overall car tested' (This was in ONE test between 4 or 5 cars, not for the whole time AutoWeek has been in existance. Now, get yer panties out of a wad). over the 'Vette which they said was the best if speed is your game. They tested two or three other cars- I forget which ones, and the M5 wasn't one of them. Maybe the cap was $60K or something.

The E39 M was awesome, but for the ~$30K difference, I am willing to trade the things I find important- specifically, the ~$30K. When I have a ton of money to spend on a racer, I'll pick me up an M- and it'll probably be an M3 just 'cause it's readily tossed around. Why else would you buy a race car?

This is actually a good discussion and constructive actually.

Robg - I was not attacking your post at all, I am sorry it came across that way; I was expressing my opinion.

Let me continue to do so...

M stands for motorsports, and the engines and technologies in M cars directly come from racing R&D. M1 in 1978 was the first expression and it is still regarded the best sports cars of its era, only 454 manufactured. I don't know if you ever drove one, but you would hate to have it as a daily driver today; even though, many regarded it as the best balance as a daily driver. When M1 was compared to Porches and Ferraris of that era (and still the same issue actually) it was extremely refined given its performance.

The M1 engine and drive terain technologies were carried over to the first M535i. It was a huge success with 4000+ sold in 3 years. It combined race-like performance with 4 doors, leather, sunroof, electric windows, and power seats. For its day, you could only find those luxuries in may be in the top 10% of vechicles with high price tags. The reason 4000 sales was considered a success was because BMW Motorsports GmbH could not handle more to build. Engines and many other mechanical parts were hand-built. Thus the car was really a de-tuned M1 with a different chassis, and enthusiasts loved it; just like PropellerHead loves his 540 for the right reasons.

Any ways to cut it a little shorter: I agree with you also that we should not settle from absolute satisfaction from our purchases. However, one thing I strongly disagree is that you cannot classify a car a "luxry" car just because of its price tag, or leather, nav, etc. Ferrari is a luxury car then, which it is NOT! Once one agrees that M-cars are sports/racing cars, then expectations and impressions change significantly.

M5 and M3 are sports car with M3 qualifying for the GT class with the Porsches and the like. I am extremely happy that finally BMW NA has sung with high enough tone that BMW AG gave us the same version of M3 as the Europeans get. A clunck hear and there is inevitable in such complex packages; as long as BMW NA monitors the situation and can assure M3 owners that it is not a mechanical problem; it is not a problem for my taste.

My choice of a 330Ci; however, is pretty similar to PropellerHead's conclusion. M3 was $20K more expensive (still affordable), but not the type of car I really wanted for every day use. Once I start my regular track times in couple years though, an M3 will be the perfect choice to start.

I certainly take your point to heart and respect it, but let me just disagree that M-class cars are not "luxury" cars.

:thumb:

Have a good weekend everyone.