Any chance that bearing failure caused impeller failure? ECP bearings are fragile.
M54 Water Pump Failure
This is from my E53, but posting here for the benefit of pre-LCI E83 owners. Based on my online research, this is not a widespread problem, so I don't think one needs to draw negative conclusions about Saleri WP's or composite impellers. However, it's just something to consider as a possibility if you have a strange overheating problem. A sheared WP impeller just doesn't jump to to the top of the troubleshooting list and I've read reports of multiple professionals failing to figure this out. With that said,... for your viewing pleasure:
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This WP only had 45K miles on it. The first symptom was inconsistent cabin heating, which I assumed to be a failing thermostat, so no urgency to fix. The second symptom was an upper radiator hose failure resulting in loss of coolant and brief overheating, so still no reason to suspect I had any other issues. Since I had to replace the upper hose, I decided it was a good time to replace that suspect thermostat and I put in a new ET for good measure. No more apparent cooling system issues for all the short trips I used it for (it's a backup vehicle, so doesn't see any long distance driving), except... the cabin heater still didn't work quite right which puzzled me.
I should have used Torque or similar to check actual coolant temps rather than relying on the heavily damped dash temp gauge, but again... I didn't suspect I had anything wrong. Out of nowhere, I got the ominous "ding" notifying me of high coolant temps. I had to abandon the vehicle a few miles from home to let it cool overnight. I was able to get it home the next morning just before overheating again. Thinking through all the symptoms, I suspected I had perhaps a blockage of some sort in the cooling system preventing flow. Turned out I was ALMOST right!
AM.
This WP only had 45K miles on it. The first symptom was inconsistent cabin heating, which I assumed to be a failing thermostat, so no urgency to fix. The second symptom was an upper radiator hose failure resulting in loss of coolant and brief overheating, so still no reason to suspect I had any other issues. Since I had to replace the upper hose, I decided it was a good time to replace that suspect thermostat and I put in a new ET for good measure. No more apparent cooling system issues for all the short trips I used it for (it's a backup vehicle, so doesn't see any long distance driving), except... the cabin heater still didn't work quite right which puzzled me.
I should have used Torque or similar to check actual coolant temps rather than relying on the heavily damped dash temp gauge, but again... I didn't suspect I had anything wrong. Out of nowhere, I got the ominous "ding" notifying me of high coolant temps. I had to abandon the vehicle a few miles from home to let it cool overnight. I was able to get it home the next morning just before overheating again. Thinking through all the symptoms, I suspected I had perhaps a blockage of some sort in the cooling system preventing flow. Turned out I was ALMOST right!
AM.
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This is very interesting to see! I honestly have no idea how there is any debate about composite vs. metal impellers. I've read anecdotal stories about metal impellers exploding like this, but I strongly suspect that is related to manufacturing issues, potentially from low-quality Amazon/eBay specials. Composite/plastic was used in the manufacturing process because they are easier to balance than metal impellers. Easier balance = less cost. It's purely a cost cutting measure and they simply cannot be trusted to hold up long-term, in my opinion.
Did you have issues flushing the plastic shards out of the cooling system? I would be concerned that some of the smaller ones could get stuck in tiny coolant channels in the block or head, potentially causing coolant starvation issues.
Did you have issues flushing the plastic shards out of the cooling system? I would be concerned that some of the smaller ones could get stuck in tiny coolant channels in the block or head, potentially causing coolant starvation issues.
Wow. Chunks now throughout your block, head, hoses, heater core, and thermostat. Lots of work ahead.
Document everything, then submit a claim to the manufacturer. And report to appropriate government agencies and private organizatons.
Document everything, then submit a claim to the manufacturer. And report to appropriate government agencies and private organizatons.
Bearing feels perfect. 95% of the material was retrieved in 3 large pieces as pictured. That leaves some smaller fragments that are either lingering inside somewhere or were drained out before I realized the need to be looking for such debris. As best I could, I backflushed the engine with my garden hose. I also backflushed the heater core. I plan to remove the radiator so I can back flush it also. So far, I have not observed any debris being flushed out.
As far as the composite vs. metal impeller issue, I don't think there's a problem with a properly made composite impeller. There's something fishy about the impeller on this particular pump. It does not appear to be made of the same material as other genuine BMW pumps or even other OE Saleri pumps. This pump was bought in January, 2019 from FCP Euro. Today I ordered an identical replacement and plan to send this one back under their lifetime warranty plan. If the new Saleri pump resembles the one I have, then I won't install it, but will seek out a pump with the correct impeller material. The impeller that failed is marked PA66-GF 30. Searching online reveals other Saleri and BMW pumps with impellers marked PPS-GF 40. I'm not a materials expert, but clearly these are not the same composite materials. There are other visual differences in the pumps I've viewed online vs. the failed one I have. I'll be curious to see what I receive from FCP. It's almost as if I received a counterfeit pump, but that's hard to imagine coming from FCP. I'm in CO, so it will be next week before the new pump arrives.
AM.
As far as the composite vs. metal impeller issue, I don't think there's a problem with a properly made composite impeller. There's something fishy about the impeller on this particular pump. It does not appear to be made of the same material as other genuine BMW pumps or even other OE Saleri pumps. This pump was bought in January, 2019 from FCP Euro. Today I ordered an identical replacement and plan to send this one back under their lifetime warranty plan. If the new Saleri pump resembles the one I have, then I won't install it, but will seek out a pump with the correct impeller material. The impeller that failed is marked PA66-GF 30. Searching online reveals other Saleri and BMW pumps with impellers marked PPS-GF 40. I'm not a materials expert, but clearly these are not the same composite materials. There are other visual differences in the pumps I've viewed online vs. the failed one I have. I'll be curious to see what I receive from FCP. It's almost as if I received a counterfeit pump, but that's hard to imagine coming from FCP. I'm in CO, so it will be next week before the new pump arrives.
AM.
FCP Euro has no control over of manufacturers if they switch production facilities and/or methods/materials. That may be what happened - I've read several threads about receiving Lemfoder parts that are made in China and clearly poorer quality than the German-made ones.
Any change you'd consider one with a metal impeller? FCP does sell a Graf unit that I used in my E46 which seemed to be very high quality. I personally wouldn't feel comfortable putting one with a composite impeller in any of my cars, and I'm surprised you're considering it after your recent experience.
I suspect you got lucky if most of the impeller came out in large chunks. I would have done the same thing - backflush everything. It's amazing how much stuff comes out of poorly maintained cooling systems - just did that on my E83.
Any change you'd consider one with a metal impeller? FCP does sell a Graf unit that I used in my E46 which seemed to be very high quality. I personally wouldn't feel comfortable putting one with a composite impeller in any of my cars, and I'm surprised you're considering it after your recent experience.
I suspect you got lucky if most of the impeller came out in large chunks. I would have done the same thing - backflush everything. It's amazing how much stuff comes out of poorly maintained cooling systems - just did that on my E83.
PA 66 is PolyAmide 66, AKA ‘nylon’, PA66 GF30 is a 30 % glass fiber reinforced PA 66. It demonstrates outstanding mechanical properties such as higher strength, rigidity, creep strength and dimensional stability. Compared to unreinforced PA 66, the properties of this glass filled modification GF30 make this material suitable for use in parts that are exposed to high static loads over long periods in high temperature conditions. As glass fibers tend in some cases to have a marked abrasive effect on mating surfaces, Nylon 66 GF30 is less suitable for sliding applications. Due to its black color additives, black Nylon 66 GF30 shows improved UV protection for outdoor weather resistance applications. Ensinger manufactures PA66 GF30 under the trade name TECAMID 66 GF 30 black.Bearing feels perfect. 95% of the material was retrieved in 3 large pieces as pictured. That leaves some smaller fragments that are either lingering inside somewhere or were drained out before I realized the need to be looking for such debris. As best I could, I backflushed the engine with my garden hose. I also backflushed the heater core. I plan to remove the radiator so I can back flush it also. So far, I have not observed any debris being flushed out.
As far as the composite vs. metal impeller issue, I don't think there's a problem with a properly made composite impeller. There's something fishy about the impeller on this particular pump. It does not appear to be made of the same material as other genuine BMW pumps or even other OE Saleri pumps. This pump was bought in January, 2019 from FCP Euro. Today I ordered an identical replacement and plan to send this one back under their lifetime warranty plan. If the new Saleri pump resembles the one I have, then I won't install it, but will seek out a pump with the correct impeller material. The impeller that failed is marked PA66-GF 30. Searching online reveals other Saleri and BMW pumps with impellers marked PPS-GF 40. I'm not a materials expert, but clearly these are not the same composite materials. There are other visual differences in the pumps I've viewed online vs. the failed one I have. I'll be curious to see what I receive from FCP. It's almost as if I received a counterfeit pump, but that's hard to imagine coming from FCP. I'm in CO, so it will be next week before the new pump arrives.
AM.
Yeah, my cooling system was pristine inside. This E53 was a one-owner, dealer-maintained vehicle, so it has been well taken care of.
As far as the composite impellers go - if you search on BMW forums you'll find very few reports of failures like mine. There was one guy on the most popular E53 forum (X-Outpost) that had the exact same issue as me, AND, he seemed to have the same inferior impeller on a Saleri pump from FCP probably purchased about the same time as mine. Another possibility is that someone did a switcharoo on a return to FCP by sending back a knockoff pump and keeping the genuine Saleri pump. It would be easy for someone handling returns at FCP to not notice and simply put it back in inventory. Again, I'll be curious to see what arrives next week.
Doug, I did a little reading on the differences in the two composites, but about all I could determine is that the PPS-GF 40 is definitely a more costly composite to produce.
AM.
As far as the composite impellers go - if you search on BMW forums you'll find very few reports of failures like mine. There was one guy on the most popular E53 forum (X-Outpost) that had the exact same issue as me, AND, he seemed to have the same inferior impeller on a Saleri pump from FCP probably purchased about the same time as mine. Another possibility is that someone did a switcharoo on a return to FCP by sending back a knockoff pump and keeping the genuine Saleri pump. It would be easy for someone handling returns at FCP to not notice and simply put it back in inventory. Again, I'll be curious to see what arrives next week.
Doug, I did a little reading on the differences in the two composites, but about all I could determine is that the PPS-GF 40 is definitely a more costly composite to produce.
AM.
PPS is PolyPhenylene Sulfide, AKA Forton and Ryton, and more commonly used as a plastic film in the electronics industry - film capacitors.
I never had full failure in my waterpump in my M54, but bearings didn't sound good, when I changed.
Ppl have reported same issues with Saleri WP for yrs.
I installed HEPU WP (about $55) in all my BMWs.
The longest service is 1998 528i, installed at 90K miles in May 2006. It is now March 2023 (17 yrs later) and 193K.
Zero issues.
But I plan to replace it after it has 100K-110K or so.
HEPU is a good brand...
I installed HEPU WP (about $55) in all my BMWs.
The longest service is 1998 528i, installed at 90K miles in May 2006. It is now March 2023 (17 yrs later) and 193K.
Zero issues.
But I plan to replace it after it has 100K-110K or so.
HEPU is a good brand...
Hmmmm.... I've not found that in my forums browsing. Sure there are reports of failed Saleri WP's, but there are probably millions of them in service, so naturally there are failures. I have NOT come across reports of impellers disintegrating, however. And, as I said, I suspect I may not have received a genuine Saleri WP. Mine has no markings whatsoever on the pump housing and the impeller is an inferior material.
I'm not against using a different brand, I'm just not convinced there's anything wrong with the OE Saleri pumps. I may change my mind if the one I get from FCP looks like the one that just failed!
AM.
I'm not against using a different brand, I'm just not convinced there's anything wrong with the OE Saleri pumps. I may change my mind if the one I get from FCP looks like the one that just failed!
AM.
Thanks for sharing! Wow, reminds me of the early E36 M3 days (that used the same designed waterpumps). The early composite waterpumps were prone to grenading just like yours. The composites got better but the E36 m3 guys were already swapping over to aftermarket metal impellar waterpumps, aluminum thermostat housings and all aluminum radiators.
When I replaced my waterpump in the 06 X3 a couple of years ago it had done over 180k miles on the original composite waterpump. ( I checked the time stamp) The bearing failed, not the impeller. I went with a Saleri jus because the original had lasted so long and I'm now at 225K miles. No issues. I recently picked up a Hepu (metal impeller) waterpump just for back up (it was on sale for $25 and too good of a deal to pass up) but honestly I don't know if I'll ever need to use it.
When I replaced my waterpump in the 06 X3 a couple of years ago it had done over 180k miles on the original composite waterpump. ( I checked the time stamp) The bearing failed, not the impeller. I went with a Saleri jus because the original had lasted so long and I'm now at 225K miles. No issues. I recently picked up a Hepu (metal impeller) waterpump just for back up (it was on sale for $25 and too good of a deal to pass up) but honestly I don't know if I'll ever need to use it.
I carefully examined the coolant in my drain pan today and there ARE small flakes of plastic in there. They are all very small - grain of sand size. I also figured out a way to back flush the radiator insitu, and I pulled the block drain and flushed back from there. I'm pretty confident I'm not going to have an issue with any debris left inside. I'm really curious to see what the Saleri pump looks like when it arrives from FCP.
This site lists the properties of the two composites in question: PPS/GF40 Black｜Glass fiber reinforced grade｜PRODUCTS｜Kureha Extron Co., Ltd . The PPS-GF 40 has a tensile strength of 196 MPa vs. 116 for PA66-GF 30. The former seems to be up to the task, but the latter... not so much!
AM.
This site lists the properties of the two composites in question: PPS/GF40 Black｜Glass fiber reinforced grade｜PRODUCTS｜Kureha Extron Co., Ltd . The PPS-GF 40 has a tensile strength of 196 MPa vs. 116 for PA66-GF 30. The former seems to be up to the task, but the latter... not so much!
AM.
Did you pull the t-stat? I would, close back up (without the t-stat), flush/backflush, then put in a new t-stat. (IDK what the M54's t-stat if separate from its housing. If one unit, remove its guts for the flushes?)
A similar discussion on Saleri WP in Xoutpost E53 (X5) forum...
Water Pump Carnage - Xoutpost.com
I'm starting another thread here to go along with my Head Gasket thread but this topic deserves its own space. Last night after removing the Jesus
xoutpost.com
Yes, I removed the t-stat and backflushed through its passage to the engine. I had just replaced the t-stat prior to discovering this WP problem. No need to replace it again.Did you pull the t-stat? I would, close back up (without the t-stat), flush/backflush, then put in a new t-stat. (IDK what the M54's t-stat if separate from its housing. If one unit, remove its guts for the flushes?)
AM.
Yep, I posted there as you know. This was the ONE guy I could find who reported the same problem I have. The fact I couldn't find more reports is what makes me suspect I (and probably he) somehow received a counterfeit. As many pumps as Saleri sells, if they were all going out with those inferior impellers, you would think the interwebs would be full of reports of disintegrating impellers. The OP in the Xoutpost thread only got 18K miles before failure. Mine went 45K. Anectdotally, one would expect these things to be crashing/burning all over the place.A similar discussion on Saleri WP in Xoutpost E53 (X5) forum...
Water Pump Carnage - Xoutpost.com
I'm starting another thread here to go along with my Head Gasket thread but this topic deserves its own space. Last night after removing the Jesusxoutpost.com
The pump I have is visually different from virtually all the photos I can find online. The Saleri/BMW pumps all show casting marks and a larger/different freeze plug weep hole area. My pump has no marks of any kind and the freeze plug weep hole area is visually smaller. Most importantly though is the material difference in the impellers as discussed above. Quite simply, the pump I have is NOT the same as the Saleri/BMW pumps that have proven quite reliable.
I'll update when I get the replacement from FCP.
AM.
I'd recommend a HEPU WP.
The Saleri...you can resell it...
Cooling system is sth I want to get it done right and enjoy it, rather than constantly worry when the WP will blow up next...
The Saleri...you can resell it...
Cooling system is sth I want to get it done right and enjoy it, rather than constantly worry when the WP will blow up next...
I am actually quite curious to see what you receive from FCP Euro. This thread has made me wonder whether my mistrust of composite impellers made from the proper material is based more on myth than fact. However, I still maintain that a metal impeller is a better solution overall as you don't have to worry about one of those being made out of the wrong material.
I do know that some (all? early?) E36s came with plastic impellers that were properly unreliable, so BMW at some point switched to a composite material. It is hard to tell the difference between plastic/composite at a glance.
I do know that some (all? early?) E36s came with plastic impellers that were properly unreliable, so BMW at some point switched to a composite material. It is hard to tell the difference between plastic/composite at a glance.
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