Bimmerfest BMW banner

3941 - 3960 of 4287 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
136 Posts
Absurd. Virtually everyone who came from a BMW and went to a Tesla is a "car guy". Sure, it's not as refined interior wise as a BMW but driver experience? Way better. Handles better. Faster. What more does a "car guy" want?
I don't think half of the BMW owners I know are car guys (My accountant sure isn't)and I don't even think everyone on this forum who owns a BMW is a car guy based on some of the questions we see for help, further I don't think Elon Musk is a car guy. I think he is a visionary guy, I think he is a Marketer and a Salesman, but not much of a car guy. I do think he has "car guys" working at Tesla.

I also truly doubt that even half of the buyers of Telsa products are car guys either (I know my friend with a model S isn't, although if you ask him he might think he is) and moving from a BMW to a Tesla does not help or change that.

As far as what car guys want it's hard to speak for everyone and I'll certainly get it wrong, but for me fast and handles well are high on the list, but it must have style, fit and finish, quality of materials, feel and sound or maybe no sound?

I remember back(early eighties) when I worked on my first Japanese car a first generation Honda Accord. after messing with loads of North American cars I was not looking forward to pulling apart the drive train of a rusty FWD car. But I was pleasantly surprised how simple and accessible it all was to work on, like the engineers had considered how the machine would go together and come apart for repairs. Now I think I value good engineering and good quality as much as anything.

Tesla has come along way in a short time, but for me I think Tesla still has some maturing to do.
 

·
Driver
Joined
·
2,763 Posts
I drove one and don't share your opinion. My stick shift with proper suspension is much more fun.

Consumer Reports results don't support it either. Despite the immediate torque it scores lower in driving experience. People enjoy driving the less powerful and mostly automatic BMWs more.

https://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13279497&postcount=3893
Different people value different aspects of the driving experience as more or less fun. For me, a car's responsiveness is the primary determinant of how much I enjoy the driving experience. That responsiveness is a combination of steering, suspension, throttle, braking on any car. In the case of an ICE car, the responsiveness of the transmission, and if equipped with a manual, the shifter and clutch figure in as well.

When it comes to the overall steering, suspension, and throttle response, I like the Model 3 better than any BMW I've driven, including M3s of any generation. I also find the brakes to be more responsive on the Model 3 than most BMWs, although some are comparable. The Model 3 has no transmission, but that's a positive since transmissions only serve to make a car less responsive to driver input. Doing away with a transmission like the Teslas have done, provides better throttle response than any ICE car can even hope to achieve.

You say that Consumer Reports scores the Model 3 lower than the BMW in "driving experience", but Consumer Reports doesn't do a driver experience score. Consumer Reports does a "road test" score that also has factors such as ride smoothness, quietness, and comfort given a high priority. Those aren't factors that I generally consider important to the driving experience, but perhaps they are to you.
 

·
Swedish Murder Machine
Joined
·
4,387 Posts
I don't think half of the BMW owners I know are car guys (My accountant sure isn't)and I don't even think everyone on this forum who owns a BMW is a car guy based on some of the questions we see for help, further I don't think Elon Musk is a car guy. I think he is a visionary guy, I think he is a Marketer and a Salesman, but not much of a car guy. I do think he has "car guys" working at Tesla.

I also truly doubt that even half of the buyers of Telsa products are car guys either (I know my friend with a model S isn't, although if you ask him he might think he is) and moving from a BMW to a Tesla does not help or change that.

As far as what car guys want it's hard to speak for everyone and I'll certainly get it wrong, but for me fast and handles well are high on the list, but it must have style, fit and finish, quality of materials, feel and sound or maybe no sound?

I remember back(early eighties) when I worked on my first Japanese car a first generation Honda Accord. after messing with loads of North American cars I was not looking forward to pulling apart the drive train of a rusty FWD car. But I was pleasantly surprised how simple and accessible it all was to work on, like the engineers had considered how the machine would go together and come apart for repairs. Now I think I value good engineering and good quality as much as anything.

Tesla has come along way in a short time, but for me I think Tesla still has some maturing to do.
https://www.businessinsider.com/elon-musk-mclaren-f1-supercar-before-wreck-2017-6

Elon bought a McLaren F1 as his first "big" purchase after he sold his first company and got millions. He bought the F1 before he even bought a real house.

Yeah, sure he's not a car guy. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

It can be pointed out that he eventually wrecked the F1. You don't wreck it by driving it like grandma. Even more proof he's a car guy.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
136 Posts
https://www.businessinsider.com/elon-musk-mclaren-f1-supercar-before-wreck-2017-6

Elon bought a McLaren F1 as his first "big" purchase after he sold his first company and got millions. He bought the F1 before he even bought a real house.

Yeah, sure he's not a car guy. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

It can be pointed out that he eventually wrecked the F1. You don't wreck it by driving it like grandma. Even more proof he's a car guy.
Nope he's not, that was bought for ego and status and wrecked for the same reason(stunting). Show me he spent time repairing or better yet modifying any of his cars or took performance driving lessons or truly raced any of his cars at the track and I'll agree with you.

Lots of people with money buy really nice cars, but they aren't car guys, the cars are status symbols. I still think Musk is one of those.
 

·
Swedish Murder Machine
Joined
·
4,387 Posts
Nope he's not, that was bought for ego and status and wrecked for the same reason(stunting). Show me he spent time repairing or better yet modifying any of his cars or took performance driving lessons or truly raced any of his cars at the track and I'll agree with you.

Lots of people with money buy really nice cars, but they aren't car guys, the cars are status symbols. I still think Musk is one of those.
The very first car Musk owned and liked was a gas car too — a 1978 BMW 320i, for which he paid $1,400 in 1994 and fixed it up himself, according to Forbes.
You were saying?

Just take the L because you don't know what the hell you are talking about.
 

·
Novice driver
Joined
·
3,897 Posts
Nope he's not, that was bought for ego and status and wrecked for the same reason(stunting).
Exactly. The sooner Elon Musk heads up to his Mars colony and stays there, the better. Hopefully, he'll be joined by Cher, Elton John, and a legion of Tesla driving Musk acolytes.

 

·
Registered
Joined
·
12,329 Posts
Discussion Starter #3,947
You were saying?

Just take the L because you don't know what the hell you are talking about.
The full text says this. A car guy would not have let a wheel fell off.

And the McLaren account fit what karzrus mentioned as rich guy buying status symbol.

"The very first car Musk owned and liked was a gas car too ***8212; a 1978 BMW 320i, for which he paid $1,400 in 1994 and fixed it up himself, according to Forbes. He had the car for two years and then a wheel fell off when he lent the car to an intern. ***8220;I scrapped the car at that point,***8221; Musk says.

He***8217;s also had a McLaren F1, a sports car he wrecked in 2000 when driving with PayPal co-founder Peter Thiel.

***8220;Peter said, ***8216;So what can this do?***8217; and like probably No. 1 on the list of famous last words, I said, ***8216;Watch this.***8217; So I floored it and did a lane change on Sand Hill,***8221; says Musk, referring to the famous Silicon Valley road, during an interview with PandoDaily. ***8220;We hit an embankment, like a 45-degree embankment on Sand Hill, which tossed the car into the air like a discus and it kept rotating with about three foot of air clearance.***8221;"
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,722 Posts
Funny how the discussion turned out about whether Elon is a car guy. To me that matters exactly zero. His company makes amazing cars nobody can match - is all I care about.

To the guy that says he likes his BMW better than the Tesla - you are clearly the minority. Sure - the Tesla is not nearly as polished as a BMW, but overall it's a much better car. The acceleration is insane, and complaining about Model 3 handling is just hilarious. BMWs may be "planted" but Tesla Model 3 is like glued on the road. You can complain about not having heated steering wheel - I'm with you there but that's like way down compared to the important stuff. I can add to that list - cabin noise sucks (though apparently they improved in 2020), no HUD sucks and so on and so forth. Still blows BMW out of the water, despite that I miss those other things.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
136 Posts
Good point and might as well get back on track.

I think this comparison is kind of like comparing the top Corvette in any given year past from the mid eighties onward to last year, to the V8 Ferraris of that same year. The Vette out performed the Ferrari but the quality just wasn't there.

Tesla's going to catch up on those other fronts eventually, if or as they focus on some of those things. But some of the other car manufacturers may catch Tesla on its strength first. Porsche might have done it already regarding the S model.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
71 Posts
I'm impressed with the Taycan. What I like most is that it is a real Porsche. Efficiency (EPA wise) is low but, in true good engineering fashion, it is optimized for what it is. The two speed transmission means it does well at high speeds. EPA ratings are great for ICE cars. However, even a Leaf has plenty of range for most daily uses. Where range matters in an EV is cruising at 80 on an Interstate. I am a Tesla fan but I was happy to see Porsche's effort be a good one. I don't think the Taycan competes directly with the S. There is a large price difference but it is the best comparison one can make. There aren't a lot of similar vehicles out there. Heck, people were comparing the iPace to the X. The iPace is much closer to the Y.
 

·
Swedish Murder Machine
Joined
·
4,387 Posts
I'm impressed with the Taycan. What I like most is that it is a real Porsche. Efficiency (EPA wise) is low but, in true good engineering fashion, it is optimized for what it is. The two speed transmission means it does well at high speeds. EPA ratings are great for ICE cars. However, even a Leaf has plenty of range for most daily uses. Where range matters in an EV is cruising at 80 on an Interstate. I am a Tesla fan but I was happy to see Porsche's effort be a good one. I don't think the Taycan competes directly with the S. There is a large price difference but it is the best comparison one can make. There aren't a lot of similar vehicles out there. Heck, people were comparing the iPace to the X. The iPace is much closer to the Y.
Tesla doesn't build anything that's really made to compete with the Taycan today. I haven't driven it but it looks amazing and it seems to be selling really well.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
7,958 Posts
Here for example: constant 75mph test, https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/comparison-test/a30799498/2020-porsche-taycan-turbo-s-vs-2020-tesla-model-s-performance/
Taycan Turbo S; 209mi
Model S Perf; 222mi
After compensating for the difference in batteries for the Taycan: 92/84*209 = 229mi

Taycan is more efficient at 75mi even though it has wider tires.
A little late to this subtopic but you do realize that the model Taycan they tested is $85,000.00 more than the top of the line Model S they tested? A price comparable 4S has 390 kW vs 560kW for the Turbo S model CD tested. There's a reason the Tesla received 20 points for price vs 4 for the Porsche.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
136 Posts
a
A little late to this subtopic but you do realize that the model Taycan they tested is $85,000.00 more than the top of the line Model S they tested? A price comparable 4S has 390 kW vs 560kW for the Turbo S model CD tested. There's a reason the Tesla received 20 points for price vs 4 for the Porsche.
Sure, but how much more would the Tesla cost if it was built to the Porches quality level.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
12,329 Posts
Discussion Starter #3,954
Sure, but how much more would the Tesla cost if it was built to the Porches quality level.
That is a fair question, although most Tesla owners are OK to accept the quality level in exchange for perceived tech advantage at the asking prices.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
12,329 Posts
Discussion Starter #3,955
So Model Y started delivery in mid March around the time CA started shelter in place, there is hardly any car on the road let alone Model Y, so has anyone test driven Model Y from family/friends that took delivery?

Musk also is wrestling with county health to reopen Fremont factory.

And Musk announced plant will be moved to Nevada. That probably will be a very expensive move esp. the biggest metal stamping robot is buried several stories into the ground.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
538 Posts
Funny how the discussion turned out about whether Elon is a car guy. To me that matters exactly zero. His company makes amazing cars nobody can match - is all I care about.

To the guy that says he likes his BMW better than the Tesla - you are clearly the minority. Sure - the Tesla is not nearly as polished as a BMW, but overall it's a much better car. The acceleration is insane, and complaining about Model 3 handling is just hilarious. BMWs may be "planted" but Tesla Model 3 is like glued on the road. You can complain about not having heated steering wheel - I'm with you there but that's like way down compared to the important stuff. I can add to that list - cabin noise sucks (though apparently they improved in 2020), no HUD sucks and so on and so forth. Still blows BMW out of the water, despite that I miss those other things.

I agree there are a few things like HUD that I wish Tesla offered but other than that there is no comparison in the driving experience. Tesla blows every other vehicle away as far as pure fun driving. My wife and I have been driving bimmers for a long time and have really enjoyed them.

But since my wife has been driving a Tesla for the last year she never wants to go back to an ice vehicle. I still drive a 535I and really like it but my next vehicle will be a model S. I have not met anyone that has owned a Tesla that does not love their car and never wants to drive another gas vehicle.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
12,329 Posts
Discussion Starter #3,957
I agree there are a few things like HUD that I wish Tesla offered but other than that there is no comparison in the driving experience. Tesla blows every other vehicle away as far as pure fun driving. My wife and I have been driving bimmers for a long time and have really enjoyed them.

But since my wife has been driving a Tesla for the last year she never wants to go back to an ice vehicle. I still drive a 535I and really like it but my next vehicle will be a model S. I have not met anyone that has owned a Tesla that does not love their car and never wants to drive another gas vehicle.
Some market analysts praised Tesla's abilities to rebound after COVID-19, citing strong market positions and innovations and loyal customer base and relatively small market share(not as much inventory headache?) and $8B+ cash on hand that can sustain 6-8 months of shutdown.

My thinking though is the relatively high US price points can be a disadvantage for Tesla amidst the new norm, and it is non-trivial to drop price without surging volume.
 
3941 - 3960 of 4287 Posts
Top