Bimmerfest BMW banner

4141 - 4160 of 4289 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
12,352 Posts
Discussion Starter #4,141 (Edited)
In what way does a m3 handle better? Because the model 3 can really handle aggressive cornering, with the battery weight being so low it really makes the car stable.
Top gears showed Model 3 beat M3 in straight line and lap time, but gave M3 a point on drift and driving fun, the tester's assertion was that Model 3 drifts by algorithm.:)

Maybe Tesla owners should try out K1 racing and experience pure form of EV driving fun. :D

Carlos did enjoy driving model 3 RWD more than G20 330i on track.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DSRWKxytW40

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xpFe8k1vjcg
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
12,352 Posts
Discussion Starter #4,142 (Edited)
I have active sway bars on the 550i. Has no tilt in the curves. Even this car feels better than the Model 3.

I don't know how to describe the difference. I feel more in control.
My guess is that this is analogous to nanny controls that BMW purists complain about on the latest cars.

Tesla/Model 3 takes nanny controls to the next level when, as the Top Gear test says, ".... the car does not want to go sideways, but the computer/algorithm tells it to do so".

It may be true that drivers can adapt to tools in hand, and adjust accordingly to the algorithms and interference, and make the best use of the tools. :D
 

·
Driver
Joined
·
2,763 Posts
My guess is that this is analogous to nanny controls that BMW purists complain about on the latest cars.

Tesla/Model 3 takes nanny controls to the next level when, as the Top Gear test says, ".... the car does not want to go sideways, but the computer/algorithm tells it to do so".

It may be true that drivers can adapt to tools in hand, and adjust accordingly to the algorithms and interference, and make the best use of the tools. :D
One of the things about Teslas that is a game changer when it comes to cars is their over the air updates that can change the cars quite dramatically. One of those changes is what has been done to track mode on the Model 3 Performance. The Track Mode V2 update came out about 4 months ago, and allows configuration of the vehicle's responses at the limit.

You want to drift? No problem. You like a car that oversteers at the limit? No problem. You like a car that understeers at the limit? No problem. And you can do this with just a few adjustments on the touch screen, even while you're moving. Try that with your M3. :p

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqDcZO7ZiVw&t=209s
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
538 Posts
Top gears showed Model 3 beat M3 in straight line and lap time, but gave M3 a point on drift and driving fun, the tester's assertion was that Model 3 drifts by algorithm.:)

Maybe Tesla owners should try out K1 racing and experience pure form of EV driving fun. :D

Carlos did enjoy driving model 3 RWD more than G20 330i on track.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DSRWKxytW40

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xpFe8k1vjcg

So the Tesla beat the bmw but the guy felt sorry for them so he gave bmw a bonus point.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,550 Posts
One of the things about Teslas that is a game changer when it comes to cars is their over the air updates that can change the cars quite dramatically. One of those changes is what has been done to track mode on the Model 3 Performance. The Track Mode V2 update came out about 4 months ago, and allows configuration of the vehicle's responses at the limit.

You want to drift? No problem. You like a car that oversteers at the limit? No problem. You like a car that understeers at the limit? No problem. And you can do this with just a few adjustments on the touch screen, even while you're moving. Try that with your M3. :p
It already behaves the way I like from the factory. So can't care less about OTA. Tesla needed OTA because they want to ship beta versions years before the design is completed.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
12,352 Posts
Discussion Starter #4,149
So the Tesla beat the bmw but the guy felt sorry for them so he gave bmw a bonus point.
It does look that way. :)

From another perspective, the algorithms and such can gradually eliminate human input from the process, so the driving fun is becoming more simulated/synthesized than tactile.

That was the big debate among festers of MT versus ZF 8AT, auto rev match, and even e-diff(and extra rear brake wears!), Tesla just takes it to the next level of making the human drivers optional/obsolete.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,550 Posts
It does look that way. :)

From another perspective, the algorithms and such can gradually eliminate human input from the process, so the driving fun is becoming more simulated/synthesized than tactile.

That was the big debate among festers of MT versus ZF 8AT, auto rev match, and even e-diff(and extra rear brake wears!), Tesla just takes it to the next level of making the human drivers optional/obsolete.
Everyone who sits in the Taycan says it handles incredibly well. Not in the same category as its weight would suggest. One guy said it is in the league of the 911 GT2 RS. It just handles great and that's mostly achieved by electronics (of course it needs the excellent hardware as well). This is a knowhow BMW, Porsche and other experienced groups have.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
12,352 Posts
Discussion Starter #4,151
Everyone who sits in the Taycan says it handles incredibly well. Not in the same category as its weight would suggest. One guy said it is in the league of the 911 GT2 RS. It just handles great and that's mostly achieved by electronics (of course it needs the excellent hardware as well). This is a knowhow BMW, Porsche and other experienced groups have.
Taycan does have rear door manual levers! :)

There is no personal experience driving a Taycan to contrast with Tesla/Model 3, but Porsche's build quality should be better than Telsa, e.g. Porsche(like BMW) does not skip on paint under the hood! :thumbup:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
12,352 Posts
Discussion Starter #4,152 (Edited)
One of the things about Teslas that is a game changer when it comes to cars is their over the air updates that can change the cars quite dramatically. One of those changes is what has been done to track mode on the Model 3 Performance. The Track Mode V2 update came out about 4 months ago, and allows configuration of the vehicle's responses at the limit.

You want to drift? No problem. You like a car that oversteers at the limit? No problem. You like a car that understeers at the limit? No problem. And you can do this with just a few adjustments on the touch screen, even while you're moving. Try that with your M3. :p
OTA can be double-edged swords, e.g. things can be improved, or worsened ....

Also note that OTA's basically are real-time debug/trial runs for engineers without loaners. :p

And OTA cannot fix everything, e.g. panel gaps, missing clips/connectors, paint quality, design choices(e.g. door mechanical lever), use(or lack of) corrugated tubes, etc, etc.

Those are hardware issues/choices that OTA cannot touch.
 

·
Driver
Joined
·
2,763 Posts
OTA can be double-edged swords, e.g. things can be improved, or worsened ....

Also note that OTA's basically are real-time debug/trial runs for engineers without loaners. :p

And OTA cannot fix everything, e.g. panel gaps, missing clips/connectors, paint quality, design choices(e.g. door mechanical lever), use(or lack of) corrugated tubes, etc, etc.

Those are hardware issues/choices that OTA cannot touch.
OTA is a paradigm changer for cars. With other manufacturers' cars, you get the cars as delivered and that's it. You have to wait until the next model year to see if they make any improvements, and then if you want those improvements, you have to buy a new car. Tesla has turned that notion on its head to the benefit of the consumer.

Here's just a partial list of the improvements that my car has received via OTA updates since I bought it 19 months ago, all at no cost.
- 2 power improvements of about 5% each
- improved charging rates at Superchargers, first from 120kWh to 150kWh, and then from 150kWh to 250kWh
- Voice control of almost all car functions, initially it was only for navigation and media control
- Sentry mode to make video recordings of those who get too close to the car
- Built-in dashcam with viewer
- Pet mode to allow climate control to run with pets in the car
- Substantially improved auto-pilot operation
- One pedal driving mode

Actually, here's a link to someone who compiled a list of OTA updates.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1vdCt-toHxtSxGqNgOu9Fngl1-01DfnZn-RklDj_IdHc/edit#gid=0

As for actual physical parts, Tesla is the same as any other car.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,550 Posts
OTA is a paradigm changer for cars. With other manufacturers' cars, you get the cars as delivered and that's it. You have to wait until the next model year to see if they make any improvements, and then if you want those improvements, you have to buy a new car. Tesla has turned that notion on its head to the benefit of the consumer.

Here's just a partial list of the improvements that my car has received via OTA updates since I bought it 19 months ago, all at no cost.
- 2 power improvements of about 5% each
- improved charging rates at Superchargers, first from 120kWh to 150kWh, and then from 150kWh to 250kWh
- Voice control of almost all car functions, initially it was only for navigation and media control
- Sentry mode to make video recordings of those who get too close to the car
- Built-in dashcam with viewer
- Pet mode to allow climate control to run with pets in the car
- Substantially improved auto-pilot operation
- One pedal driving mode

Actually, here's a link to someone who compiled a list of OTA updates.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1vdCt-toHxtSxGqNgOu9Fngl1-01DfnZn-RklDj_IdHc/edit#gid=0

As for actual physical parts, Tesla is the same as any other car.

As mentioned it wasn't ready when it was released to production. What held them back implementing the features above before they started selling them?

I hope others won't follow on starting production with half baked cars. Problem is when one cheats others fall behind by playing it fair.
 

·
Driver
Joined
·
2,763 Posts
As mentioned it wasn't ready when it was released to production. What held them back implementing the features above before they started selling them?

I hope others won't follow on starting production with half baked cars. Problem is when one cheats others fall behind by playing it fair.
By that definition, all cars are half baked as delivered, from any manufacturer, since all cars can be improved. In fact, all products of any kind by anybody are "half baked". What makes Teslas different from most cars is that a lot more of their operation is controlled by computer. As a result, the possibilities for improvement via software updates are much more extensive than most cars.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
12,352 Posts
Discussion Starter #4,156
As for actual physical parts, Tesla is the same as any other car.
Munro picked on Model 3's physical parts(unfortunately no detailed teardown series like Model Y), and specifically pointed out why they(rear unibody(?), wheel well, bolts, etc, etc) are subpar.

These physical parts stay with the car. Specifically, the chassis related parts cannot be easily fixed without teardown.

Model Y appears to be improving.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
12,352 Posts
Discussion Starter #4,157
Here's just a partial list of the improvements that my car has received via OTA updates since I bought it 19 months ago, all at no cost.
- 2 power improvements of about 5% each
- improved charging rates at Superchargers, first from 120kWh to 150kWh, and then from 150kWh to 250kWh
- Voice control of almost all car functions, initially it was only for navigation and media control
- Sentry mode to make video recordings of those who get too close to the car
- Built-in dashcam with viewer
- Pet mode to allow climate control to run with pets in the car
- Substantially improved auto-pilot operation
- One pedal driving mode
OTA, or software updates, are bread and butter of tech companies. Some automakers picked up that practice long before Tesla, but allegedly bricked the cars(Cadillac CUE?) in the process. :)

In general the above Model 3 OTA lists look like feature lists that couldn't be delivered at initial rollout, so engineers gradually caught up and pushed out the features(similar to iPhone/Android/Windows).

This tactic also nicely masks software-based SIB/recall/bug fixes while customers are dazzled by extra goodies.
 

·
Driver
Joined
·
2,763 Posts
Munro picked on Model 3's physical parts(unfortunately no detailed teardown series like Model Y), and specifically pointed out why they(rear unibody(?), wheel well, bolts, etc, etc) are subpar.

These physical parts stay with the car. Specifically, the chassis related parts cannot be easily fixed without teardown.

Model Y appears to be improving.
And Munro found other physical parts of the Model 3 to be superior. All cars have some better parts and some worse parts. That is why there is so much competition. If someone ever built the perfect car, no one else would be able to compete. ;)

Also, regarding the rear unibody on the Model 3, Munro didn't have any complaint about it functioning properly or being strong enough. His complaints were that it was overly expensive to produce and heavier than it needed to be. It's not like say e36 and e46 rear unibodies that have a tendency to crack. I consider a tendency for the unibody to crack, as being far more subpar than being difficult to manufacture and a little heavy.
 

·
Driver
Joined
·
2,763 Posts
OTA, or software updates, are bread and butter of tech companies. Some automakers picked up that practice long before Tesla, but allegedly bricked the cars(Cadillac CUE?) in the process. :)

In general the above Model 3 OTA lists look like feature lists that couldn't be delivered at initial rollout, so engineers gradually caught up and pushed out the features(similar to iPhone/Android/Windows).
Feature lists not being able to be delivered at initial rollout is the case with every car ever produced. Car manufacturers, other than Tesla, rarely, if ever, make any of the new features available on their previously produced cars. Part of it is undoubtedly intended to create additional incentive for customers to buy a new car every couple of years due to planned obsolescence. They do this even if the hardware itself wouldn't need to be changed to implement the new feature(s).

Tesla is taking a tech company type approach, as you noted, and making it work. Since Tesla made the decision to not build planned obsolescence into their cars, they were able to design them to allow much more future upgradeability than other car manufacturers. No other car manufacturer to date has made a significant effort to really make OTA work, and I think it's unlikely that they will until they don't have a choice. Whether they have a choice or not will depend on Tesla's future success, since they are the only competition out there really using OTA updates in a significant fashion.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,550 Posts
And Munro found other physical parts of the Model 3 to be superior. All cars have some better parts and some worse parts. That is why there is so much competition. If someone ever built the perfect car, no one else would be able to compete. ;)

Also, regarding the rear unibody on the Model 3, Munro didn't have any complaint about it functioning properly or being strong enough. His complaints were that it was overly expensive to produce and heavier than it needed to be. It's not like say e36 and e46 rear unibodies that have a tendency to crack. I consider a tendency for the unibody to crack, as being far more subpar than being difficult to manufacture and a little heavy.
Yeah, that subframe cracking is horrible. Usually seen on cars of 10+ years old, rather 15.

Meanwhile Tesla doesn't have issues with delivering cracked new cars

https://www.thedrive.com/tech/9093/brand-new-tesla-model-s-delivered-with-cracked-a-pillar

But weldings don't hold for long either

https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/model-x-weld-seam-cracking.100798/

#safestcar
 
4141 - 4160 of 4289 Posts
Top