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Discussion Starter #1
Good evening.

Set up this account solely for the purpose of this post.

Short version of a longer story: I was ticketed for no front licence plate. I'm inclined to take a swing at having the law struck down on constitutional grounds. The upshot of my pitch is that the law requiring a front licence plate is arbitrary and divorced of any valid interest underlying the regulation of Ontario's highways. Being stopped/detained/charged on the basis of an arbitrary law is in violation of s. 7 and 9 rights to liberty, security of the person and the right not to be arbitrarily detained (i.e. unconstitutional). I've brought a number these applications successfully for non-disclosure and unreasonable delay.

Re arbitrariness: I intend to argue that the law as it stands, among other things, incentivizes and manifests in unsafe front mounting and display practices (thinking of all the guys rolling around with their plates on their dash - essentially a flying knife in event of crash); compounds damage and danger from double the amount of plates/screws/nuts/bushings/brackets/plastic/etc. falling off and littering Ontario highways, doubling the deluge of rusty screws and other hazards, body/windshield/tire damage, etc.; impedes air flow and intake, increasing drag and emissions; and otherwise damaging, depreciating and degrading vehicles aesthetically, technically and literally, without any countervailing benefit, interest or purpose. Among other things.

I'm reaching out on the forums in the interest of putting my best foot forward. To that end, if anyone can point me to one or more authoritative sources or persons who can speak to some or all of these things, arbitrariness (even counter-productivity) of the law, safety, performance, even aesthetics, that would be helpful. Real artists put real effort into automotive design. It's a product of thought, expression and beauty. Requiring tens of millions of motorists to drill an ugly, rusty duplicate plate on top of it serves no valid purpose, and in fact undermines other valid purposes like value, performance, safety, environment, etc. It deprives us all of a little beauty in the world, for no good reason. Note that 9 of 14 provinces/territories don't require a front plate.

Anyway that's my aim here. I don't care about the $85 if I'm convicted. I'm making a Hail Mary attempt at changing the law. And it really is a Hail Mary. Courts are loathe to interfere with legislative intent expressed through statutory language. But I'm willing to go down swinging, and there's a smidgen of a chance I win - in which case we ALL win with a precedent-setting decision applicable throughout the province. Worst case scenario we'll have a bad decision we can send to Doug Ford with a cap-in-hand plea to change the law.

I'm no good at forums. If anyone has any expertise, other ideas or reasons why this law is arbitrary, or other bases of attack, I've set up an email address you can reach me at: NoFrontLicencePlate [at] gmail [dot] com.

Cheers guys, wish me/us luck. :thumbup:
 

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Discussion Starter #3 (Edited)
So does the make, model, year, colour, VIN and rear plate. The majority of Canadian jurisdictions are solving crime without the need for a front plate.

Do you have any sources or statistics speaking to the necessity of the front plate in solving crime? Not being sarcastic, it's a fair point and certainly relevant.

Gluing our names to our foreheads, prohibiting sunglasses and making all clothes see-through would also help in crime solving. Thing is, most of us are not criminals.
 

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02/2012 X5 35d M57Y CPO 99K miles NOKIAN WR G3 12K miles
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I-ANAL. There is no right to hazard the public by driving without regulation that includes ALL of the vehicle code requirements to which one commits in exchange for licensing.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
I-ANAL. There is no right to hazard the public by driving without regulation that includes ALL of the vehicle code requirements to which one commits in exchange for licensing.
You are correct that drivers have no right to hazard the public. Query what hazard I create for you by mounting one plate to my car instead of two.
 

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Nuclear engineer
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You are correct that drivers have no right to hazard the public. Query what hazard I create for you by mounting one plate to my car instead of two.
Well, I-ANAL, cannot cite chapter and verse of your Vehicle Code, but one does not get to pick and chose with which section you comply and at which section you scofflaw. Either you comply or you are a scofflaw.

My most recent traffic citation, indeed, most recent line-of-duty interaction with a cop was in 1977.
 

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If they don't let you have a machine gun in Canukistan, don't expect them to let you have a damage free and attractive front bumper. Your only hope is to go to a legal U.S. port of entry, request political asylum (you'd qualify if you get a hearing before an immigration judge with a cool car), and move to one of the United States of America's 19 more civilized states.

Hawaii requires a state safety inspection sticker, on the rear bumper where the adhesive will eat the paint off. If you put it in the bottom corner of your rear window, you will get ticketed. It's not that they want to make sure your car is safe. They want to damage your car. You're not allowed to have a machine gun in Hawaii, either.

My job brought me from Virginia to Floriduh. Now that I'm retired, we want a change of scenery. No state income or estate taxes was also a major requirement. So, we're moving to no-front-tag and machine gun-friendly Tennessee! :thumbup:

People were fed up with damaged bumpers in Texas. A bill to no longer require front tags was narrowly defeated in the legislature a few years ago. I came up on a police roadblock and checkpoint in Texas a few years ago. The cops were licking their chops as they looked at my virgin front bumper. When one of them walked around to the back of my car and saw my Floridud tag, their fun was over. His parting words to me were "Watch out for hurricanes."
 

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If they don't let you have a machine gun in Canukistan, don't expect them to let you have a damage free and attractive front bumper. Your only hope is to go to a legal U.S. port of entry, request political asylum (you'd qualify if you get a hearing before an immigration judge with a cool car), and move to one of the United States of America's 19 more civilized states.

Hawaii requires a state safety inspection sticker, on the rear bumper where the adhesive will eat the paint off. If you put it in the bottom corner of your rear window, you will get ticketed. It's not that they want to make sure your car is safe. They want to damage your car. You're not allowed to have a machine gun in Hawaii, either.

My job brought me from Virginia to Floriduh. Now that I'm retired, we want a change of scenery. No state income or estate taxes was also a major requirement. So, we're moving to no-front-tag and machine gun-friendly Tennessee! :thumbup:

People were fed up with damaged bumpers in Texas. A bill to no longer require front tags was narrowly defeated in the legislature a few years ago. I came up on a police roadblock and checkpoint in Texas a few years ago. The cops were licking their chops as they looked at my virgin front bumper. When one of them walked around to the back of my car and saw my Floridud tag, their fun was over. His parting words to me were "Watch out for hurricanes."


Or he could simply stay in Canada but move to one of the other jurisdictions which only requires 1 plate. Canadian provinces and territories of:
Alberta
Newfoundland and Labrador
Northwest Territories
Nova Scotia
Nunavut
Prince Edward Island
Quebec
Saskatchewan
Yukon

Bonus - he’d get to keep universal healthcare!

:)



Sent from my iPad using Bimmerfest mobile app
 

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They're going to produce a Canadian version of Breaking Bad, but it's only one episode: Teacher gets cancer. The government pays all the medical bills. The End.
 

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where da clutch at ?
BMW 128i Convertible E88 N52B Executive Package
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https://www.ontariohighwaytrafficact.com/

is your friend...... I guess you'll have the same results as you have had here, except there are people who are on both sides of the LEO/Justice/etc fence.

I think if your only main worry with your BMW is a front license pate, then your really having a good life,

have a beer, go drive the thing and comply with all regs and laws

Your not one of them freeman of the land things ?

Good evening.

Set up this account solely for the purpose of this post.

Short version of a longer story: I was ticketed for no front licence plate. I'm inclined to take a swing at having the law struck down on constitutional grounds. The upshot of my pitch is that the law requiring a front licence plate is arbitrary and divorced of any valid interest underlying the regulation of Ontario's highways. Being stopped/detained/charged on the basis of an arbitrary law is in violation of s. 7 and 9 rights to liberty, security of the person and the right not to be arbitrarily detained (i.e. unconstitutional). I've brought a number these applications successfully for non-disclosure and unreasonable delay.

Re arbitrariness: I intend to argue that the law as it stands, among other things, incentivizes and manifests in unsafe front mounting and display practices (thinking of all the guys rolling around with their plates on their dash - essentially a flying knife in event of crash); compounds damage and danger from double the amount of plates/screws/nuts/bushings/brackets/plastic/etc. falling off and littering Ontario highways, doubling the deluge of rusty screws and other hazards, body/windshield/tire damage, etc.; impedes air flow and intake, increasing drag and emissions; and otherwise damaging, depreciating and degrading vehicles aesthetically, technically and literally, without any countervailing benefit, interest or purpose. Among other things.

I'm reaching out on the forums in the interest of putting my best foot forward. To that end, if anyone can point me to one or more authoritative sources or persons who can speak to some or all of these things, arbitrariness (even counter-productivity) of the law, safety, performance, even aesthetics, that would be helpful. Real artists put real effort into automotive design. It's a product of thought, expression and beauty. Requiring tens of millions of motorists to drill an ugly, rusty duplicate plate on top of it serves no valid purpose, and in fact undermines other valid purposes like value, performance, safety, environment, etc. It deprives us all of a little beauty in the world, for no good reason. Note that 9 of 14 provinces/territories don't require a front plate.

Anyway that's my aim here. I don't care about the $85 if I'm convicted. I'm making a Hail Mary attempt at changing the law. And it really is a Hail Mary. Courts are loathe to interfere with legislative intent expressed through statutory language. But I'm willing to go down swinging, and there's a smidgen of a chance I win - in which case we ALL win with a precedent-setting decision applicable throughout the province. Worst case scenario we'll have a bad decision we can send to Doug Ford with a cap-in-hand plea to change the law.

I'm no good at forums. If anyone has any expertise, other ideas or reasons why this law is arbitrary, or other bases of attack, I've set up an email address you can reach me at: NoFrontLicencePlate [at] gmail [dot] com.

Cheers guys, wish me/us luck. :thumbup:
 

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Nuclear engineer
02/2012 X5 35d M57Y CPO 99K miles NOKIAN WR G3 12K miles
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Also, i cant name a single country outside of North America that do not require a front plate, designers design the front of the car to have it, just like they do on the rear. Including Germany, you know, of all people will make thier car look the best!
The only exception, really, is super/hypercars, of which your BMW is not. they do look silly with a front plate, so most dont wear them, a fine is cheaper than replacing a carbon fiber front bumper etc.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
Update: Filed a Notice of Constitutional Question. Charge withdrawn in exchange for withdrawing the application. Done.

May Doug Ford scrap the front plate forever.
 

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where da clutch at ?
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Having two plates makes it easier to locate stolen cars. Especially for police departments that use license plate readers
LPR has expanded rapidly into law enforcement and having 2 plates to target definitely makes a difference.
They photograph passing cars and identifies the license plate number, which is a checked against a of violators and stolen cars.

A big advantage to having front and rear plates is that witnesses and victims have a better chance of seeing the license plate of suspicious vehicles involved in crimes regardless of which way they're driving

I would rather somone be able to ID my car if stolen or be able to ID a hit and run or drunk driver.

But hey, let's not damage our cars, or spoil the looks of them or worry about additional taxation
or what ever beef we have. Number plates have been around since 1925 I believe, they are worth more having them than not.
 

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Having two plates makes it easier to locate stolen cars. Especially for police departments that use license plate readers.
I am no expert in stolen car recovery methods or statistics and this post is only partially sarcastic (ie I am happy to learn something I didn’t previously know or understand), but ... are you saying that the number of stolen cars that then keep THE SAME license plates on while being driven around willy nilly for more than a few hours after the theft is sufficiently high that license plate identification is a useful recovery technique?

I am clear that the only reason society hasn’t collapsed under criminal element onslaught is that vast majority of criminals are even more stupid than the rest of us (no offence intended to either group), but I still naively think that would be so stupid as to be statistically useless as a technique.
 

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where da clutch at ?
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No system is perfect, people can hack NASA or the FBI, or steal a Buggatti without making a noise.

You have your high end experts, who will swap out plates in a second, you also have your run of the mill smash and grab merchants and of course the kids who just wanna thrill ride your car, then you also have your "law biding" upstanding pillars of society who drive while under the influence, or simply will just hit and run you.

There are more people in the latter who don't carry plates or are not gonna swap them out.
Unless of course your happy for your own insurance to cover your costs of a H&R or DUI that can't be traced.

Thought that would be a non-brainer but I'm never surprised to be proved wrong.

.... a true story, many many years ago, late night, I forgot something in my car, I was in my PJ's and didn't wanna change, so just put a long coat on, and wandered to my car parked on the side of the road, it was cold, and I was looking for my key's , hunched over and fumbling with the keys in the lock (around 2am), out of nowhere a plain clothes car pulled up, window down, "hey, whats the number plate for your car" (this was in the UK) so I replied "yz123" or whatever it was, replied "oh ok mate" and was about to start to drive away, I yelled over to the 2 cops, "thanks a lot fellas, appreciate you checking, stay safe !" they smiled and drove off. NOW, I could have been up to no good, and maybe anyone else, might have played the race card, or "why are you stopping me", "got nothing better to do" kinda comments.. ME for one, was grateful, the cops where out there doing there jobs.


Freedom and our rights are all relative, you have to give a little and take a little, FOR the greater good


I am no expert in stolen car recovery methods or statistics and this post is only partially sarcastic (ie I am happy to learn something I didn***8217;t previously know or understand), but ... are you saying that the number of stolen cars that then keep THE SAME license plates on while being driven around willy nilly for more than a few hours after the theft is sufficiently high that license plate identification is a useful recovery technique?

I am clear that the only reason society hasn***8217;t collapsed under criminal element onslaught is that vast majority of criminals are even more stupid than the rest of us (no offence intended to either group), but I still naively think that would be so stupid as to be statistically useless as a technique.
 

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No system is perfect, people can hack NASA or the FBI, or steal a Buggatti without making a noise.

You have your high end experts, who will swap out plates in a second, you also have your run of the mill smash and grab merchants and of course the kids who just wanna thrill ride your car, then you also have your "law biding" upstanding pillars of society who drive while under the influence, or simply will just hit and run you.

There are more people in the latter who don't carry plates or are not gonna swap them out.
Unless of course your happy for your own insurance to cover your costs of a H&R or DUI that can't be traced.

Thought that would be a non-brainer but I'm never surprised to be proved wrong.

.... a true story, many many years ago, late night, I forgot something in my car, I was in my PJ's and didn't wanna change, so just put a long coat on, and wandered to my car parked on the side of the road, it was cold, and I was looking for my key's , hunched over and fumbling with the keys in the lock (around 2am), out of nowhere a plain clothes car pulled up, window down, "hey, whats the number plate for your car" (this was in the UK) so I replied "yz123" or whatever it was, replied "oh ok mate" and was about to start to drive away, I yelled over to the 2 cops, "thanks a lot fellas, appreciate you checking, stay safe !" they smiled and drove off. NOW, I could have been up to no good, and maybe anyone else, might have played the race card, or "why are you stopping me", "got nothing better to do" kinda comments.. ME for one, was grateful, the cops where out there doing there jobs.


Freedom and our rights are all relative, you have to give a little and take a little, FOR the greater good

Well, get ready to be unsurprised. You’ve gotten pretty far off the core topic logic. I’ll grant that neither of us know anything about statistics of stolen cars having their plates replaced soon after theft, but the rest of your points are completely unrelated to the core context of no front plate:

a) H&R/DUI cannot be traced to you if the car is not identified, so lack of front plate doesn’t apply (ie you assert that lack of front plate prevents car identification, therefore an unidentified car cannot be traced to owner).

b) H&R/DUI traced back to you on a stolen car BECAUSE you had a front plate generally is very poor evidence when you’ve reported the car stolen, which of course would be the only reason anyone in law enforcement would be looking at your front plate according to your original theory — cars not reported stolen or otherwise suspect are not triggered by front plate detection, no reason to.

c) your UK story is not applicable since we’re not discussing no license plates, we’re discussing no front license plates. Regardless of whether that was harassment or good policing, lack of front plate didn’t and wouldn’t have changed the outcome of your anecdote.

So we’re back relying on the behaviour of dumbest of all criminals as the only reason for the front plates then?
 
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