[berkeley223]

I think we all understand that you did not know about this, and many of us do not even blame you for this incident. What I see, unfortunately, is two people who violated the trust and personal safety of a customer. The two people in the interrogation room are the ones I am talking about. One played good cop (the manager, who can say he was not mean or threatening to the customer), and the other person (unknown at this time, who was up in the face, threatening character, etc.). Mr. Flow, what I am trying to tell you is that one other employee, other than your manager put the customer in a very threatening situation, they took him to a separate room, sat him down, confronted him, etc.

I have patients w/ PTSD, if they were put in this situation, they might have cracked and harmed your employees. I know that the OP, Coontie, would not have, but YOUR other employee, NOT YOUR MANAGER, put him in a very serious, psychologically dangerous situation. You need to get to the bottom of this, or someone on this forum, not me, but someone will keep digging until we hear from you about this. Again, thank you for your response, I am sure you have more digging to do.

wow, you weren't even there and based on his description of what happened you view it as a "very serious, pshychologically dangerous situation"? that's taking it a little far, no? :tsk:

 

[330ximd]

wow, you weren't even there and based on his description of what happened you view it as a "very serious, pshychologically dangerous situation"? that's taking it a little far, no? :tsk:

Not at all, being taken to another room, interrogated the way he was, and flanked by two people, instead of a comfortable one on one, is 'psychologically dangerous'. I know of two patients of mine who would have lunged at them halfway through this foolish setup, and even w/ his injuries from Iraq, he would have extensively physically harmed the two managers who were just being overzealous, according to Don Flow, which also sounds like an understatement from the managers. This is moot though, b/c it is a he said, she said type of deal, no?

Edit: And to Don Flow, I hope you have reprimanded those 'overenthusiastic' managers of yours, and explained to them how the human psyche analyzes certain situations that are 'good' and 'bad'. This was a piss poor representation of your dealership, and had you not come online, it would have been downright absurd, it is now just idiotic, having a customer confronted in a illogical, juvenile, aggressive, and foolish manner.

 

[johnc_22]

Not at all, being taken to another room, interrogated the way he was, and flanked by two people, instead of a comfortable one on one, is 'psychologically dangerous'. I know of two patients of mine who would have lunged at them halfway through this foolish setup, and even w/ his injuries from Iraq, he would have extensively physically harmed the two managers who were just being overzealous, according to Don Flow, which also sounds like an understatement from the managers. This is moot though, b/c it is a he said, she said type of deal, no?

Edit: And to Don Flow, I hope you have reprimanded those 'overenthusiastic' managers of yours, and explained to them how the human psyche analyzes certain situations that are 'good' and 'bad'. This was a piss poor representation of your dealership, and had you not come online, it would have been downright absurd, it is now just idiotic, having a customer confronted in a illogical, juvenile, aggressive, and foolish manner.

There are ALWAYS two sides to every story. I am not doubting what happened to coontie, and certainly in the same situation I would have been extremely uncomfortable, but not having been there, I am allowing a bit of skepticism that it was not exactly a dark room with a single lightbulb and some rubber hoses and cigarette smoke.

I think Mr. Flow has responded in a forthright and appropriate manner at this point, and the rest is up to coontie to either pursue meeting with Mr. Flow or just letting the matter drop.

 

[BMWFM1]

Thank you for the thoughtful comments to my responses. Let me try to make several other clarifications:
Although I would prefer to say it face to face to the customer, I will use this forum to say that I am sorry that we did not live up to our own beliefs, that we did not serve you, and that we did not extend a hand of friendhship to demonstrate that the burden falls on us to demonstrate that we are worthy of your trust.

Again, if you would like to speak to me personally, I would be glad to say these same things to you. Don Flow

Dear Mr Flow,

First of all, as mentioned by others, thank you very much for having the courage to respond in this forum to this unhappy customer.

As previously posted, most people do not dispute your pricing, carwash policies, etc. You are entitled to run your business as you wish.

I think the main issue was the perceived inquisition-style treatment by a customer and fellow fester. From what I am reading above, it looks like you are sorry about it. However, this is burried with many other topics and may not be clear to all. To avoid any further misunderstanding, may I suggest something like.

"Zach, on behalf of my organization, please accept my apologies for any miscommunication with my team members. It is not our policy to confront customers and we will make sure it does not happen in the future" .

Zach responds "apology accepted. Thanks a lot for taking care of this, Don"

You become a customer service hero, Zach feels better... And we all go home to enjoy our long week-end and our BMWs.

Best

FM

PS: note that this customer actually praised your service in his original posts (the old broomstick one). In addition it is likely a one time glitch given your CSi track record.

 

[Michael Schott]

Not at all, being taken to another room, interrogated the way he was, and flanked by two people, instead of a comfortable one on one, is 'psychologically dangerous'. I know of two patients of mine who would have lunged at them halfway through this foolish setup, and even w/ his injuries from Iraq, he would have extensively physically harmed the two managers who were just being overzealous, according to Don Flow, which also sounds like an understatement from the managers. This is moot though, b/c it is a he said, she said type of deal, no?

Edit: And to Don Flow, I hope you have reprimanded those 'overenthusiastic' managers of yours, and explained to them how the human psyche analyzes certain situations that are 'good' and 'bad'. This was a piss poor representation of your dealership, and had you not come online, it would have been downright absurd, it is now just idiotic, having a customer confronted in a illogical, juvenile, aggressive, and foolish manner.

Mr. Flow has been good enough to admit his employees errors and apologized for them. What more do you want him to do?

Thanks, Mike.

 

[330ximd]

There are ALWAYS two sides to every story. I am not doubting what happened to coontie, and certainly in the same situation I would have been extremely uncomfortable, but not having been there, I am allowing a bit of skepticism that it was not exactly a dark room with a single lightbulb and some rubber hoses and cigarette smoke.

I think Mr. Flow has responded in a forthright and appropriate manner at this point, and the rest is up to coontie to either pursue meeting with Mr. Flow or just letting the matter drop.

I fully agree w/ you, and that is why I said it is a he said/she said deal, but, there is no doubt Coontie was taken into an office and flanked by two people one, overly aggressive, and treated disrespectfully, w/ belief from the OP of bad intention. This is a very disconcerting event for any customer not to expect when going into a dealership just to get a tire fixed. There is no doubt the other manager was a 'threatening' character compared to the GSM. I knew from the beginning it was not a 'dark room w/ lightbulb', that was aliteration that hopefully everyone took into account, nothing more than a comparison to that type of 'gestapo' scenario.

 

[johnc_22]

Seriously. This thread has jumped the shark.

 

[330ximd]

Mr. Flow has been good enough to admit his employees errors and apologized for them. What more do you want him to do?

Thanks, Mike.

He should give everyone on this forum a free car. :dunno: What do you think we've been telling/asking him this whole time? Read the thread, there are other issues about this interrogation that he had previous not covered.

 

[White05X3]

I think Mr. Flow has, to a certain extent, missed the point here...He comments that his people should not have asked about Coontie's internet name. While that is true enough, that is less concerning than the fact that a file was started and maintained with Coontie's posts. Why go through that exercise if the intent is not to confront the customer?

If the dealership was concerned about their s reputation, or worried about learning from experiences gone awry, then direct contact with Coontie should have been made earlier. That contact should have been via PM or e-mail and should have been polite and professional. Confronting Coontie with stacks of posts live and in person, months later, appears to be vindictive.

 

[jwac]

FYI, received a message from Coontie that he's traveling and will be able to respond in about 4 hours from now.

 

[330ximd]

He answered my concerns....thanks Mr. Flow.

Follow up

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The "other manager" was not trying to interrogate him. They were trying to go to a private setting so that they could speak without interruption. They now understand that their actions communicated something completely opposite of their intent. Going to a private office was seen as threatening. Two on one was seen as threatening. Asking a person to reveal their internet identity was threatening. I am confident that they will not do any of these actions again. This communication has helped all of us in our organization understand that it is breaking trust to ask a person about their internet identity and their communication. I would be interested in your feedback about the best way that you think for us to respond to a posting that we might see about our company.

Being new at this, I will say that I was surprised at the kind of language captured on this thread and particuarly surprised to find a picture of myself and a picture of my personal home on this thread. I have never blogged or responded on the internet so perhaps this kind of invasion of privacy is considered acceptable but it does seem to have a striking parallel to the very issue that started this entire thread.

Don Flow

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=295828

 

[rmichae9]

Seriously. This thread has jumped the shark.

Ahh, the "jump the shark" phrase that is so prevalent on bulletin boards all over the internet I am sure. They certainly are on the automobile, wine, soccer, and other bulletin boards I enjoy reading.

What I do not enjoy is why someone feels so clever to post this. Since the last "jump the shark" comment, "Don Flow" has responded in a very interesting manner. This thread is as interesting as it has ever been.

Johnc, and others, if the thread has passed it's prime in your opinion, please just stop reading it, and stop posting useless comments about the thread.

Thank you, Mr. Flow, for your response.

 

[mrvuml]

3. We don't keep files on people. However, from what I can tell this thread has been going on for some time and a number of our employees were aware of it. In fact, in reviewing the thread, I see that one of them tried to respond. Perhaps it was overly defensive but they were trying to communicate their perspective.
Don Flow

One of your employees tried to respond? IIRC, a couple of people took your dealership's side but said they were happy customers, not employees. Or did I miss something? Its been a long thread and difficult to follow at times. Please clarify, thanks.

 

[KAP8]

Mr. Flow, I respect you very much for getting involved with this thread. Thanks for clearing a few things up.

As previously mentioned, the big issue still remains with the "other person" interrogating Coontie in that room..........not your GSM.

Coontie, I think you should call Mr. Flow and discuss this.

While I don't doubt that these posts are from Mr. Flow, as Ronald Reagan said, "Trust but Verify."

 

[KAP8]

One of your employees tried to respond? IIRC, a couple of people took your dealership's side but said they were happy customers, not employees. Or did I miss something? Its been a long thread and difficult to follow at times. Please clarify, thanks.

Me too............Mr. Flow, who was the employee that posted? :dunno:

 

[superstock]

I can't believe the ridiculous levels this thread has reached. The internet is definitely the dumping ground of humanity where you check your morals at the door.

Countie was obviously defaming the dealership by posting such negative and inflammatory things when they didn't agree to his price. I have been in several dealerships from all brands that priced their cars higher than I would have liked. I offered what I believed to be a fair price and if they didn't accept then no harm/no foul and I went somewhere else. It is called business.

No BMW dealership is forced to meet another dealership's price. If you can sell all of your cars at MSRP then why should you have to haggle with some cheap customer who wants it at the absolute bottom dollar? If the customer wants the car below the price you are comfortable selling for then you just let them walk away. I am not a dealer but i definitely sympathesize with them sometimes.

If Coontie wants to post such remarks about the sales force (ex:"sodomized by brooms") then he should not be surprised when they find out who posted such things. The whole confrontation is a little he said/she said though I am sure the dealership was not pleased with him.

All of the big talking and harsh language since then from forum members truly paints this forum and BMW owners in an unfavorable light. Digging up personal information and posting of such information accomplishes nothing.

I take it as a lesson that if you are going to start bashing real businesses under a pseudonym on the internet you have to be prepared for the potential backlash in the real world. If I was running that dealership and people were bashing me behind my back (especially since they didn't buy the car from me) I would just make sure that my schedule book was always filled and that the person would never ever get a loaner.

 

[Don Flow]

Hopeful Conclusion

The posting regarding how we should have engaged the customer addresses my earlier question about what is the appropriate way for us to engage with a customer on an anonymous blog or network. The members of my organization who were aware of the thread did not know the best way to engage in the conversation. Ultimately, that is clearly my fault.

They did keep the conversations because they were trying to figure out who the customer was so that they could address the issues. While this might sound idealistic, we are dedicated to every customer trusting us and to creating the benchmark for a positive customer experience. When we don't do that, we try to immediately respond. When we have broken trust, we believe that we have to be willing to disadvantage ourselves to prove that we are trustworthy (Isn't that what friends do?).

So, in that spirit, let me say once again.

I apologize for the variety of interactions that have not demonstrated that we respect you or that we value you as a person. You do not have a history with us so that I recognize that we have no equity to demonstrate our sincerity and our commitment to be a place that customers can trust that will always strive to do what is right for the customer.

If you would like to email me, please contact me directly at dflow@flowauto.com and I will be glad to meet with you personally. I am also confident that the other members of our BMW dealership would be pleased to reach out to you as well.

Don Flow

 

[Saintor]

Come on... that's WEAK. The OP was an abuser and you spanked him... no apology needed.

I guess that you had to do this under pressure.

 

[philippek]

An Extremely Significant Moment in Bimmerfest History

I hope all of you grasp the importance of this thread and this moment.

I don't know Mr. Flow personally, but I do know that he is the dealer principal of a BMW store, as well as several other dealerships. I can assure you that he has many very important responsibilities that go well beyond the need to respond to strangers on an internet forum regarding the conduct of 2 of his employees and a specific customer.

Contrast this to the Savage BMW incident, just 4 short years ago. That was arguably a much more eggregious transgression which resulted in the destruction of a customer's M3. Contrast Peter Savage's (the dealer principal in that case) silence in that thread to the forthright and frank apologies and explanations coming from Don Flow.

I for one would like to recognize Mr. Flow for his willingness to enter this forum and lay it all out. He has boldy gone into a hostile and unfamiliar environment and engaged all of us on our turf. Lesser men would ignore the problem. Lesser men would employ surrogates to do the dirty work and the heavy lifting. Lesser men would hide behind lawyers and sycophants.

Instead, he has taken it upon himself to repair the damage done to his reputation and his dealership, and his responses have gone a long way towards restoring the image of Flow BMW and its employees. 5 days and 33,301 page views later this thread has most certainly not jumped the shark. It has entered the final stage, maturity and permanence.

Don Flow, I'd like to officially welcome you to the 'Fest :thumbup:

 

[KAP8]

I can't believe the ridiculous levels this thread has reached. The internet is definitely the dumping ground of humanity where you check your morals at the door.

Countie was obviously defaming the dealership by posting such negative and inflammatory things when they didn't agree to his price. I have been in several dealerships from all brands that priced their cars higher than I would have liked. I offered what I believed to be a fair price and if they didn't accept then no harm/no foul and I went somewhere else. It is called business.

No BMW dealership is forced to meet another dealership's price. If you can sell all of your cars at MSRP then why should you have to haggle with some cheap customer who wants it at the absolute bottom dollar? If the customer wants the car below the price you are comfortable selling for then you just let them walk away. I am not a dealer but i definitely sympathesize with them sometimes.

If Coontie wants to post such remarks about the sales force (ex:"sodomized by brooms") then he should not be surprised when they find out who posted such things. The whole confrontation is a little he said/she said though I am sure the dealership was not pleased with him.

All of the big talking and harsh language since then from forum members truly paints this forum and BMW owners in an unfavorable light. Digging up personal information and posting of such information accomplishes nothing.

I take it as a lesson that if you are going to start bashing real businesses under a pseudonym on the internet you have to be prepared for the potential backlash in the real world. If I was running that dealership and people were bashing me behind my back (especially since they didn't buy the car from me) I would just make sure that my schedule book was always filled and that the person would never ever get a loaner.

I think you are missing the Gestapo interrogation tactics. That is the issue.

No matter what Coontie said on the internet, he should not expect or accept those tactics from any business.

I admitted early on that I would have gone ballistic in that room. Anyway, the interrogation method used is the issue.