[deemer]

Actually, I'm even more undecided than that! Most likely, it will come down to choosing between two options below (comparable price):

1) 1999/2000 BMW 323/325
2) 1998/1999/2000 Audi A4 2.8

Any wise words--either within the BMW range or as comparison to Audi--would be extremely helpful.

Also sort-of considering:

3) New A4 1.8T?
4) New 325 (ED?)
5) 1999/2000 328?

Some data to provide background: test drove 330, loved it, but a) honestly, its borderline scary; b) I had just as much fun in the 325. Test drive just couldnt test limits in any meaningful way (even at Weaterhford, where they let me on highway alone). Never driven a 328. Or a 323 for that matter. I havent driven stick in a while, so that may be a factor as well. The Audi design and interior is whats driving me to consider it. eg, like the instrument cluster/lighting better. 1.8T 5SP was definitely not torquey enough (but can I mod it?). 3.0 was, but way beyond price range. New A4 is really sweet, but that almost makes the previous body style less attractive. Perhaps b/c of weight and transmission, same H/P felt like a lot more on 330 vs 3.0. Open questions:

i) how different is a 323 from a new 325?
ii) how different is a 328 from a 330?
iii) what is the "best" year for both, in range above?
iv) b/w A4 and 3-series, is it apples and oranges?

Thanks for listening.

 

[PropellerHead]

Easy for a bimmer group- hehe

i) how different is a 323 from a new 325?

A 1999/2000 323 and a 2001 325 are essentially the same. Same motor, ergos, etc. While there may be enhancements from year to year, they each share the E46 body and underpinings. Even though it has the 2.5L motor, the 323 was badged as such to differentiate it more clearly between the 328 which was offered at the time. Please note, I did not say they were the same. so don't you fellas come outa the gates crying with steering retros and new swtiches and all the other BS

ii) how different is a 328 from a 330?

~26hp. Many people pay big money for 10% HP gains and still dont get what they hoped for. We drove a 328 and I was happy with it. It was also quite a savings compared to new. The wife wanted more power, so we ordered the 330. (I am a pushover) :dunno:

iii) what is the "best" year for both, in range above?

Just my opinions, love 'em or hate 'em: I'd do the 2000 328: The last year the 2.8 was available and the second for the E46. I'd also look for a 2000 323. They can be found cheap. A buddy picked one up with 46K miles for $22K with sport and premium. Never wrecked, either.

Lastly, dont look to me for Audi advice. I'm not sure you can get objective advice here, anyway. Sorta like asking about a new cat or a pure bred doberman on a AKC site.

Which is the cat and which is the dobie in this story? Well, you get to decide that.

 

[steve]

Audi or BMW

I've got an '01 BMW 325i (ED), and have/had a Volkswagen Passat, which save for the quattro has similar underpinnings to the A4 (I said similar:angel: ).

If you're looking for a true driver's experience, the BMW can't be beat. It's RWD, so you can learn about steering with the throttle, and all the other good stuff that RWD offers. It also has the overall goodness of driving a car that's tied to the road (get the Sport Package :thumb: ), a stickshift that is almost perfection, and an engine that just loves to hit the redline and sounds is as close to music that any piece of machinery can be. It's a car that you can use to improve the limits of your driving skills, because it is a driver's car.

On the other hand, the Audi platform is fabulous. Great ride, gorgeous interior, and if you live in a snowy area, the benefit of quattro for the inclement weather. The 1.8t is an easily modified engine, good for easily 225hp, particularly if it's out of warranty. Handling is predictable, safe, and sitting in the backseat doesn't terrify my children in the same way the Bimmer does as you're just not encouraged to plumb the depths of the Audi platform like the BMW.

If you're thinking ED, there's no alternative but BMW as Audi has no ED. It's a great experience. (I've been on European Delivery for the past twelve months, and I've got to return the car back to Canada next month ). Driving the car in the environment where it was engineered is an amazing experience, and cruising regularly 150km/h just shows off the cars abilities. The twisty back roads of Europe, coupled with the generally higher level of European drivers also just engages you to improve your driving skills. For more information on the ED experience, Gary Ray (Nat Brown) has got a great web site (www.bariaur.com/e39/) on how you save a few dollars.

As for the 325i/330i debate, I chose the 325i largely because of the price differential -- and I've rarely ever wanted more power (I just like looking at the difference I would have paid for the 330i in my bank account). I'd also rather put the money into suspension and tire mods. It's also great as (IMO) it's a balanced car, where you can run up to redline and full throttle coming out of corners regularly.

However, and this is going to be confusing....Audi or BMW -- they're both great cars. Just different.

Good luck.

 

[geomax]

Making a decision between your two first choices is tough. All are terrific cars. I've driven the Audi A4 2.8, and there is plenty of power and torque. Personally, I like the pre 2002 design better. The ride on the 2.8 is definitely on the comfort side - it's much softer the a BMW's, and there is pronounced roll. However, you have the excellent Quattro system to help keep things in line. I've also owned a 2001 Audi A4 1.8T - and came to hate the engine. Its gutless. Yes, you can mod it up to 225hp, but you will still have turbo lag that becomes even more annoying it hot weather. Also modding will void any warranty, and stress the engine. A 4 banger is always more buzzy than a 6. The 1.8T had a Sports Package suspension - but Audi's SP is nothing compared to BMW's.

1999/2000 BMW 323/325 would be a very nice car. With 170hp, it'll still have plenty of zip, and I believe these models have more torque than the 2002 325 (but less HP). But if you can get a 328 for about the same price, then this would be the way to go. Same power as the A4, but handling wise, it would be much, much better.

I think the key line you said was "test drove 330, loved it, but a) honestly, its borderline scary; b) I had just as much fun in the 325." So, I think a 323/325 is your car.

 

[10chi]

Making a decision between your two first choices is tough. All are terrific cars. I've driven the Audi A4 2.8, and there is plenty of power and torque. Personally, I like the pre 2002 design better. The ride on the 2.8 is definitely on the comfort side - it's much softer the a BMW's, and there is pronounced roll. However, you have the excellent Quattro system to help keep things in line. I've also owned a 2001 Audi A4 1.8T - and came to hate the engine. Its gutless. Yes, you can mod it up to 225hp, but you will still have turbo lag that becomes even more annoying it hot weather. Also modding will void any warranty, and stress the engine. A 4 banger is always more buzzy than a 6. The 1.8T had a Sports Package suspension - but Audi's SP is nothing compared to BMW's.

1999/2000 BMW 323/325 would be a very nice car. With 170hp, it'll still have plenty of zip, and I believe these models have more torque than the 2002 325 (but less HP). But if you can get a 328 for about the same price, then this would be the way to go. Same power as the A4, but handling wise, it would be much, much better.

I think the key line you said was "test drove 330, loved it, but a) honestly, its borderline scary; b) I had just as much fun in the 325." So, I think a 323/325 is your car.

same power as BMW 328??

 

[hts]

I think most of us have been in the same position as you (more or less) at one time or another. Personally, I thought I was going to end up with a new '00/'01 1.8TQ and mod the crap out of it (chip, exhaust, bigger turbo, etc.). But invariably, I got pissed that I couldn't get 'things' on the 1.8 that I could on the 2.8 (leather, power seats, etc.), and of course, the 2.8 really can't be modded.

In the end, I decided that I didn't want to spend 30k for a brand new car and then tear out/replace perfectly good parts. I also found the quattro to be more of a detriment than a benefit (I live in Nova, and we don't get much snow here). The guys at audiworld may argue that Quattro is a benefit over RWD in the rain, but I'm unconvinced. In the end, it came down to which car did I really enjoy driving more. Although I really didn't want to spend the bucks, I drove a demo (4k miles) S4 before I made my final decision, as I was able to get it for $1k over invoice. Believe it or not, despite the gobs of torque, I actually enjoyed driving the BMW more. There's a pretty good road (lots of twisties) out here by Great Falls near Adam's mill, and I put the S4 (as well as the 1.8 and 2.8 before it) through its paces, and it just didn't 'do it' for me, so I got the Bimmer. Nevertheless, I think the A4 series is an excellent car and you can't go wrong either way. Best of luck.

 

[ALEX325i]

Actually, I'm even more undecided than that! Most likely, it will come down to choosing between two options below (comparable price):

1) 1999/2000 BMW 323/325
2) 1998/1999/2000 Audi A4 2.8

Any wise words--either within the BMW range or as comparison to Audi--would be extremely helpful.

Well, you won't find any 2000 325's... I'm pretty sure you'll find 325's made in late 2000, but I'm pretty sure the MY is 2001. Anyway, that's not THAT important... The A4 2.8 is more powerful than both 323 (20HP more) and 325 (only 6HP more). However, it's not as fun to drive or well balanced as the 323/325. The FWD A4's are nose heavy... The Quattro's are better balanced IMO, but still, not as fun as 3er's...

i) how different is a 323 from a new 325?
ii) how different is a 328 from a 330?
iii) what is the "best" year for both, in range above?
iv) b/w A4 and 3-series, is it apples and oranges?

Thanks for listening.

i) The 325 has 14HP more. Although I don't have the numbers off the top of my head, it looks like the 323 had more torque. Anyway, the difference can't be huge, and that's nothing a Cold Air Intake (CAI) can't solve (~$325.00 mod)... I just installed the ECIS one on my 325i and the engine breaths MUCH better now. It's noticeable how much stronger the car pulls all the way up to the redline now... Specially past 4K RPM's... Other than that, the cars are virtually the same (325 may have bigger brakes, etc)

ii) There's a more noticeable difference here... The 330 has 32HP more than the 328 (225HP vs 193HP?). I bet it's got bigger brakes too. Also, the 330 has more standard equipment and some cosmetic mods.

iii) Hmmm... That's a tricky question... BMW messed with steering in the '01's (too light - road feedback is not the same). That's been fixed in '02. So, if you're considering ED (or '02), you don't have to worry about it... The other thing that's been introduced in '01 MY is drive by wire throttle. Some hate it (i.e. DBW throttle is not linear/responsive). I don't really care... Compared to my previous 00 323Ci, I don't see that much of a difference... In other words, depending on what you're looking for in a car, 99/00 (i.e. 323/328) may be better MY's for you...

iv) Well, RWD (BMW) vs FWD (A4) alone is apples and oranges kind of thing IMO... If you're considering Quattro, then xi models is a better comparison. However, both cars definitely compete in the same market segment and they're often compared.

This is how I look at it (I also have a 98 A4 Quattro w/Tip - well, at least until 2/13)... If you're into mods, the A4 1.8T is more tunable then the 3 series. It's also more bang for the buck.

Now, if what you want is a daily driver with the best driving dynamics in its market segment, go for the 3 series... You won't regret it... :thumb:

 

[Guest84]

No Audi for me, owned a new one, undrivable by 65,000 miles. Nope nope nope, never again.

 

[ayn]

Actually, I'm even more undecided than that! Most likely, it will come down to choosing between two options below (comparable price):

1) 1999/2000 BMW 323/325
2) 1998/1999/2000 Audi A4 2.8

I would go for a 2000 323 if I were to choose between the 2. Just please please stay away from the MY2001 and later BMWs, unless you're looking into getting an auto, then it doesn't matter much.

--Andrew

 

[ALEX325i]

Re: Re: Please help new member--trying to decide b/w '99 323 and A4 2.8

I would go for a 2000 323 if I were to choose between the 2. Just please please stay away from the MY2001 and later BMWs, unless you're looking into getting an auto, then it doesn't matter much.

--Andrew

As far as I know, the 01+ manual tranny is not any different than that in earlier E46's...

 

[Guest84]

Incidently, for the years you published, Audi had 2 recalls, and the BMW323 had 1 minor recall:

http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/problems/recalls/

 

[dduk]

I had a Passat (A4 clone), and had nothing but problems. Ended up having VW buy it back from me under the lemon law. Everyone seems to agree that the BMW handles better and has similar power. The only thing that the A4 may have on the BMW is Quatro. And if you do the ED thing, the xi becomes price competitive. I think the most important thing that you must consider between the two is reliablity and resale value. The BMW is put together much better than the Audi, and will hold its value more than the Audi. Why then would anyone pick the Audi, except for a slighly lower sticker?

 

[ad]

i) how different is a 323 from a new 325?

I used to have a 2000 323i and now have a '02 325i. There are very minor differences between the two. The steering on the '00 seemed a bit tighter than the new. Also the 323i seems quicker off the line (more torque)but it's very minor. However if your looking at the Sports package, the 325 looks much nicer with the 17" wheels.

Also another note, if your looking at the Audi's you'll probably lose some on the resale value with the redesign in MY02's. As with the BMW's the next change won't be for a couple more years so the resale value will somewhat hold.

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[DaveN323i]

When I was thinking of a new car in 1999, I test drove both the 323 and the A4. The A4 has a softer suspension even with the sports package. The 2.8 engine of the A4 is a bit weak if you get the Quattro model. In the end, the 323i was a better car at a lower price then.

Do note that there were some changes between model year 1999 and 2000. I believe 2000 came with DSC while the 1999 with ATC (spell?). Also, if you decide on an automatic (no flames please ), the 1999 has no step while 2000 has step (I may be incorrect on this).

In any event, Bimmer all the way.:thumb:

 

[Plaz]

Re: Re: Re: Please help new member--trying to decide b/w '99 323 and A4 2.8

As far as I know, the 01+ manual tranny is not any different than that in earlier E46's...

I think the point being that those who are irked by the DBW throttle, are irked due to its interplay (or lack thereof) with the clutch in a manual tranny car.

 

[Plaz]

I test drove a 2001 A4 1.8T... nice car, nice interior, crappy balance (waaay front-heavy), FWD (torque steer didn't seem that bad by FWD standards, though).

What really pushed me away in the final analysis was the rubbery, sloppy shifter.

 

[ayn]

Re: Re: Re: Please help new member--trying to decide b/w '99 323 and A4 2.8

As far as I know, the 01+ manual tranny is not any different than that in earlier E46's...

not that the trannies are different, it was that the 2001+ E46's have drive-by-wire throttle, with a manual, it's very noticeable. with the steptronic, it's not as bad, coz the torque converter is MUCH worse... anyhoo... I've driven the 328 and the 330 manual extensively and the 328 is way easier to control. I actually stalled the 330 twice the first time I drove it, but that might be because I suck... =)

--Andrew

 

[The HACK]

My take on things is that Audi is a cheap man's alternative to BMW. Every model Audi has ever come up with has always fall just slightly short of what BMW offers and much cheaper, making them competitive.

When we bought my wife's 323Ci we test drove the Audi A4 2.8 Quattro first. It was a capable car but it felt slower than the 323Ci STEP. In fact the numbers show that the 2.8 Quattro auto was indeed slower than the 323Ci step. Everything about the Audi was just a hair worse than the 323Ci, eventhough the 2.8 Quattro priced out to be a few hundred bucks cheaper than the 323Ci, we ultimately got a second 323Ci in the family.

Here's the logical progression of things:

Ferrari = Poorman's Lamborghini
Porsche = Poorman's Ferrari
BMW = Poorman's Porsche
Audi = Poorman's BMW
VW = Poorman's Audi.

If you have the money to pony up to the next level, do it...There are all the intangibles that comes with each model that makes it just that much better, that you can not see on paper.

 

[ayn]

Re: i) how different is a 323 from a new 325?

That's a good point, depreciation of Audi's is generally MUCH MUCH worse than BMWs, and with the new A4s now it gotta be even worse.

--Andrew

Also another note, if your looking at the Audi's you'll probably lose some on the resale value with the redesign in MY02's. As with the BMW's the next change won't be for a couple more years so the resale value will somewhat hold.

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[Guest84]

LOL Hack, your analysis looks about right!