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2020 Z4 M40i
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The Camaro leans slightly before it takes a set, and this initial roll compliance, combined with sluggish steering, is immediately noticeable on turn-in. It was especially apparent through the uphill esses, which require subtle, quick transitions from left to right. It all adds up to a momentary hesitation before the Camaro takes the desired course, and this minor delay made the car feel massive as it sluiced through the esses, exhibiting the gracelessness of a freighter.
It really sucks for the BMW's to be losing to a car like that.:rofl:
 

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It also has 24 turns, been there, done them, got the tee shirt with the Tar Heel chapter of the BMWCCA. Yes the fastest cars are going to turn in the best times, why is that a shocker? Thing is all the cars in Lightning Laps are driven back to back each year by a multiple group of pro & semi-pro drivers. Its about the fairest test you can run of overall performance. I can understand some BMW fan boys not liking the results, but the results are the results.
I've always wanted to drive VIR but it was like a 12 hr drive for me when I used to do track days. Up here we do have Lime Rock, Mosport and my favorite, Mont Tremblant. I never did Watkins Glen cause that's for crazy people.

The reason BMWs make nice track cars is they're balanced, so you'll experience all the things you should experience, understeer, oversteer etc, and they don't have huge V8s that make up for lousy driving. I remember guys driving Z06s complain that once you got used to the amazing performance, you realize the car's too easy to drive to be ideal track cars. Mitsubishi EVOs are the same way, probably moreso.
 

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Well I guess it is a POS that embarasses track focused BMW M cars at the track...and it does it for nearly half the price.
I'd be more embarrassed to be wallowing all over the track with the wet noodle suspension. And I doubt most SS drivers have the skill to beat an M3 on track.

SS is for poseurs, track junkies will buy the ZL1 or Z28, if they can afford it.
 

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It really sucks for the BMW's to be losing to a car like that.:rofl:
You sure you did a lot of track days? The guys I knew would never get upset by getting passed, cause there's always a faster car, and it's often an old heavily modified POS. The people who are bothered by that stop going to the track.
 

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2020 Z4 M40i
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To each his own, when it comes down to handling I will trust the purpose built testing track over C&D editors on a weekend trip to the local track.
That "local track" is consistently ranked as one of the best road courses in America. Back in the bad old days ran B, C & E, production cars. Corvette, Morgan SS & Triumph TR-3A/B. My comment was not about track days just a general comment of how badly some fan boys deal with the fact that the 3/4 & M variants are not the hot tickets they think they are. Was interesting reading the excuses for their showing or lack there of year after year in the Lightning Laps series.

They are pretty nice premium performance cars that, if properly optioned do most things well but there are pure performance cars that cost less than half as much will kick their butts. I have no problems with BMW being slower than a Camaro or Mustang if I did I would buy a faster DD. I put my money on the BMW's because I like the balance & looks. I did modify the 335is & 135is a bit but the 435 is staying stock.
 

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To each his own, when it comes down to handling I will trust the purpose built testing track over C&D editors on a weekend trip to the local track.
The best comparisons are when a magazine takes a pro driver to drive each car on the same track on the same day. That's not feasible in many cases.

Top Gear's times are sketchy cause it's raining half the time in England. :D
 

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I'd be more embarrassed to be wallowing all over the track with the wet noodle suspension. And I doubt most SS drivers have the skill to beat an M3 on track.

SS is for poseurs, track junkies will buy the ZL1 or Z28, if they can afford it.
Whatever makes you feel better but just don't try to race that POS in your track tuned M3 at the track because you will most certainly lose.
 

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Since some members have been complaining about the VIR results. This is a 1.55 mile track:

Here is a 2011 BMW M3 Coupe at the Streets of Willow vs Mustang GT. The M3 best pro driven time was 87.67 seconds.

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/coupes/1010_2011_2011_ford_mustang_gt_vs_2011_bmw_m3_comparison/curtain_graphs.html

Here is a 2013 Chevy SS 1LE optioned to 43,105 dollars vs Mustang GT track pack. The SS best pro driven time was 82.70 seconds.

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/coupes/1303_2013_chevrolet_camaro_ss_1le_ford_mustang_gt_track_pack/winner.html

If this car is a POS then I don't know what the M3 is...
 

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That "local track" is consistently ranked as one of the best road courses in America. Back in the bad old days ran B, C & E, production cars. Corvette, Morgan SS & Triumph TR-3A/B. My comment was not about track days just a general comment of how badly some fan boys deal with the fact that the 3/4 & M variants are not the hot tickets they think they are. Was interesting reading the excuses for their showing or lack there of year after year in the Lightning Laps series.

They are pretty nice premium performance cars that, if properly optioned do most things well but there are pure performance cars that cost less than half as much will kick their butts. I have no problems with BMW being slower than a Camaro or Mustang if I did I would buy a faster DD. I put my money on the BMW's because I like the balance & looks. I did modify the 335is & 135is a bit but the 435 is staying stock.
And Laguna Seca is one of the most challenging in the world. My point is C&D probably chose VIR more for accessibility than any concerns (probably much cheaper and easier for them to use vs other more popular tracks). But you are correct in regard to fanboys. The Corvette has long been hated by the Europeans as brutish and uncivilized, but it is has repeatedly beat many of the cars costing 2 or 3 times it's price. I owned a 4th Gen SS Camaro and love how far the new Gens have come, particularly in breaking and handling. But these cars have very different personalities. I believe a lot of the "feel" the OP is talking about is this kind of difference. He might not feel as confident of it's handling as someone more use to the Camaro style of handling.
 

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Whatever makes you feel better but just don't try to race that POS in your track tuned M3 at the track because you will most certainly lose.
Not a problem. In 10 track events I never saw a Camaro. I think they're all at the mall.
 

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Worlds Foremost Authority
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I was at Watkins Glen two weeks ago for the IMSA races. One of the BMW drivers from Fall Line Racing (I can't recall his name but he was young and from all indications fast) was invited to speak to our group (the Genesee Valley Chapter of the BMWCCA). Someone asked him what his personal car was and he said it was a Camaro and that he loved it.

Also FWIW RLL Racing BMW driver John Edwards also drives a Camaro in the Trans Am Series. Comparing any track prepared car to a street car is pointless because they generally have very little in common.

CA
 

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:rolleyes: You drive a 328.
My M Sport blows the Camaro away in ride, quality, stability, build, and road feel. Nor was it built by a criminal enterprise that places profit$ before lives.
 

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^^^^^

I am sure we are all very happy for you. Just look the other way & ignore the POS in question at traffic lights. So on one hand you have a car built by in your opinion a criminal enterprise & on the other one built by an enterprise that built aircraft engines for the Nazi Luftwaffe & vehicle engines for the Wehrmacht, your point is?

I see you like the debadged look, seems pretty popular on some models.
 

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Well I guess it is a POS that embarasses track focused BMW M cars at the track...and it does it for nearly half the price.
I did a lot of track days. My last car, an STI, smoked everything I came up against at the local track. However, I hated the interior and overall build quality. I looked into the Camero Ss with the 1LE package and the ZL1, but they seemed like my STI in the quality/interior aspects. I gave up a fair amount of performance with the 228, but got a ton of gas mileage. And, I think it is a beautiful car inside and out. I am not going to pay new M3 money, given a desire to retire early.
 

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I did a lot of track days. My last car, an STI, smoked everything I came up against at the local track. However, I hated the interior and overall build quality. I looked into the Camero Ss with the 1LE package and the ZL1, but they seemed like my STI in the quality/interior aspects. I gave up a fair amount of performance with the 228, but got a ton of gas mileage. And, I think it is a beautiful car inside and out. I am not going to pay new M3 money, given a desire to retire early.
That's the problem with buying a car for four 20min track sessions, you have to drive it home afterwards.

228 would be fun on track too, I just drove them at the BMW autoX event, was very impressed.
 

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That's the problem with buying a car for four 20min track sessions, you have to drive it home afterwards.

228 would be fun on track too, I just drove them at the BMW autoX event, was very impressed.
I think that I could have fun at a track day, be it with different tires. However, the suspension is a bit soft to really hold up to intense lapping while actually holding its own. However, last year, I saw a guy with a Mazdaspeed 3 smoking his group of Porsches, Vettes and BMWs.
 

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Discussion Starter #79
This:

"Well, whatever, it's a fast POS. Read C&D's comments. Sounds kind of like what the OP said.

Quote:
The Camaro leans slightly before it takes a set, and this initial roll compliance, combined with sluggish steering, is immediately noticeable on turn-in. It was especially apparent through the uphill esses, which require subtle, quick transitions from left to right. It all adds up to a momentary hesitation before the Camaro takes the desired course, and this minor delay made the car feel massive as it sluiced through the esses, exhibiting the gracelessness of a freighter."

And this:

"And Laguna Seca is one of the most challenging in the world. My point is C&D probably chose VIR more for accessibility than any concerns (probably much cheaper and easier for them to use vs other more popular tracks). But you are correct in regard to fanboys. The Corvette has long been hated by the Europeans as brutish and uncivilized, but it is has repeatedly beat many of the cars costing 2 or 3 times it's price. I owned a 4th Gen SS Camaro and love how far the new Gens have come, particularly in breaking and handling. But these cars have very different personalities. I believe a lot of the "feel" the OP is talking about is this kind of difference. He might not feel as confident of it's handling as someone more use to the Camaro style of handling."


These two quotes are exactly what my point was
 

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Discussion Starter #80
Oh and I just remembered a couple of things about the SS that I liked better than my F31, other than engine/exhaust note and tire shredding.

The HUD was great. You could magnify the display as well as having multiple info choices. Just MPH, MPH plus RPM, and another couple of settings I can't remember. Nice to have choices. Why couldn't BMW do that?

Also the center console was a good amount deeper than the F31. I wonder why if a car as low as a camaro can have a center console like that, does my f31 have such a tiny shallow console that can barely fit a phone? Is it the undercarriage workings, Xdrive, or some other mechanical interference down the center of car that takes up this space?

And that's about it...
 
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