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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
The May issue has a section on new car previews. One of the cars they "preview" is the forthcoming 1 series. Here's the good parts just to get all your anger flowing:

The subtitle of the article is "The CS1 concept car offers a preview of BMW's upcoming 1-series and the contours of BMW's design philosophy."

In the interview, Bangle essentially says that the concepts are SO out-there simply to make the actual models look good. For example, he says "The X coupe was a comparatively wild statement that went so far to one end of the spectrum that we could cover a whole new territory in its wake. . . These cars [the X coupe & Z9] were important to us, because they defined how wide the landscape is out there."

He calls this the "bookend strategy."

The article continues to say:

. . . Bangle has quite obviously convinced BMW's R&D chied Burkhard Goeschel and, in turn, the entire board of directors that the company needs a more courageous approach to design. "We are going to spread out more; the bookends will be pushed farther apart."

One final quote for you all:

Despite the criticism, Bangle acts very much the man in charge. Now that the 1-series designs have been approved and the next 3-series is almost complete, it is clear that all future BWMs will bear the signature of his team.

All I can say is NOOOOOO!!!!!! :bawling:
It's a shame that my first experience with a BMW (E46) will also likely be my last. :thumbdwn: :bawling:
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
nate328Ci said:
The 1 series will be 15K, RWD, 1.8L I-4 with Valvetronic, and a real driver's car...

118Ci or Civic...hmm...seems obvious to me :dunno:
Yep, that civic is looking really good! :D Actually, I do tend to agree with you, performance is an important consideration when buying. And in most cases I won't rule out a car on looks alone. That said, however, it is only a PART of the decision. For example, I liked the way the IS 300 performed, but I didn't buy one because there are options (the 325) out there for a similar price that perform just as well (or even a bit better IMHO) and that look a lot better!

Looks ARE important! Look at the Aztek. It was a great, funtional idea (I like the tent)! But, it looks liked hell so it doesn't sell. And with more auto makers looking to knock BMW off its throne, looks become very important. Consider the 3 series. If the new 3 series is butt-ugly, and there are other options that are similar in performance, BMW WILL LOSE SALES!
 

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BS' Bimmer said:

BMW WILL LOSE SALES!
Hmmm... That doesn't seem to be the case with the E65...

What you guys don't see is that while "enthusiasts" may not like the future models, if such models do reach more and more people (i.e. those who currently drive cars we consider hideous), BMW has succeeded as a company: increased revenue = profit = happy shareholders. They're in the game of making money, NOT please purists...

Anyway, is that bad news for some of us? Maybe. I think I'm lucky. I like the E65 (not a car I'd buy anytime soon - I don't need a big sedan and am not ready to give up on my third pedal). I like the upcoming 5 based on computer generated pix I've seen. I see NOTHING wrong with the CS1 (especially considering its estimated price tag). Granted, I don't like the upcoming 6 and Z4 based on spy pix I've seen, but if they prove to be a blast to drive, I may even consider an M6 in the future (provided that SMGII is not the ONLY tranny available).
 
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nate328Ci said:
The 1 series will be 15K, RWD, 1.8L I-4 with Valvetronic, and a real driver's car...

118Ci or Civic...hmm...seems obvious to me :dunno:
You don't get it. If the actual car is even half as ugly as the CS1, WE WILL buy the Civic instead. Or a nice used E30.

Performance matters. But as I've said many times, if ugly didn't matter at all, we'd all be driving WRXs. The new BMW designs are, IMO, MUCH uglier than the WRX. And the WRX is growing on me. The E65 is not.
 

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TD said:


You don't get it. If the actual car is even half as ugly as the CS1, WE WILL buy the Civic instead. Or a nice used E30.

Performance matters. But as I've said many times, if ugly didn't matter at all, we'd all be driving WRXs. The new BMW designs are, IMO, MUCH uglier than the WRX. And the WRX is growing on me. The E65 is not.
The drawing in Automobile wasn't bad at all. The CS1 could look good, it has potential. The 1 series may well have many resemblences to the 2002. Fine, drive your damn FWD Civic, I'll enjoy my 118i much more.

If the WRX was out in 1999, I may have bought one. The STI verison is very nice as well.
 

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TD said:


You don't get it. If the actual car is even half as ugly as the CS1, WE WILL buy the Civic instead. Or a nice used E30.
We???

Performance matters. But as I've said many times, if ugly didn't matter at all, we'd all be driving WRXs. The new BMW designs are, IMO, MUCH uglier than the WRX. And the WRX is growing on me. The E65 is not.
Speak for yourself. No matter how fugly current/future BMW designs are, the WRX would still beat them hands down, and I'd still not buy one. Why would I? Just to make a "statement"? Sorry, not a teenager anymore... If I were to make a statement, I'd buy a 6er and be done with it. Besides, to me it's all about engineering, heritage. German engineering IS superior.

Anyway, it's not like I'll have that problem. I see nothing wrong with current/future models. Like I said above, I really don't see anything wrong with the CS1. Especially considering its estimated price tag... Nate's right. Honda vs BMW @ same price range? BMW, hands down.

PS: If you start getting smoked by every other 1er on the road, keep these "functional" mods in mind... I'm sure you'll have NO problems getting them. Every 16-year old out there can hook you up.

 

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BS' Bimmer said:

And with more auto makers looking to knock BMW off its throne, looks become very important. Consider the 3 series. If the new 3 series is butt-ugly, and there are other options that are similar in performance, BMW WILL LOSE SALES!
Never underestimate the American public's appetite for generic cars. That public has kept the Big 3 pumping out crap for decades and they are still the largest automakers on the planet.

IMO, The uglification (or more precisely, the blandification) of the 3-series will be met well by the general public who aren't really that up on small details that distinguish vehicles. If it says BMW on the hood, then by gosh, they will buy them.

I bet that BMW will continue to gain market share as it's products go very mainstream with generic looking, sloppy steering&suspensions & auto tranny's galore. That may not work well for the enthusiast, driving them to M-cars, Porsche's or someone else.

Oh well, I'm sticking with my 2000 323i for quite awhile, and have scrapped the idea of replacing it in the next year or 2. Although I really should replace it as I have passed 61000 miles already---61k reliable, fun filled miles! :) :) .

There is nothing compelling on the market place currently. The G35 coupe looks interesting, but I am enclined to save up my northern peso's and waiting for a V8 powered M3 or S4 or perhaps even bypass the entire mainstream lineup and get a couple year old 996 as the next car.

- JP
 

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JPinTO said:


Never underestimate the American public's appetite for generic cars. That public has kept the Big 3 pumping out crap for decades and they are still the largest automakers on the planet.
To me that has nothing to do with the "American public's appetite for generic cars". That has to do with price tag. People will always buy GM, Ford, and Chrysler's "crap" as long as it is cheap... But maybe that's exactly what you meant...

IMO, The uglification (or more precisely, the blandification) of the 3-series will be met well by the general public who aren't really that up on small details that distinguish vehicles. If it says BMW on the hood, then by gosh, they will buy them.
A bit early to speak, don't you think? Rumor has it the next 3 will be a back to basics driver's car. In theory, the same applies to the upcoming Z5...

I bet that BMW will continue to gain market share as it's products go very mainstream with generic looking, sloppy steering&suspensions & auto tranny's galore. That may not work well for the enthusiast, driving them to M-cars, Porsche's or someone else.
You bet??? It's called business... Personally, I've never thought of BMWs as exclusive cars anyway (OK, I consider the Z8 an "exotic"). To me they've always been mainstream. Want a bit (and that's a little tiny bit) of exclusivity? You're right - go M. That's what Motorsport divisions are usually all about (i.e. M, AMG, SVT, etc)...

Oh well, I'm sticking with my 2000 323i for quite awhile, and have scrapped the idea of replacing it in the next year or 2. Although I really should replace it as I have passed 61000 miles already---61k reliable, fun filled miles! :) :) .

There is nothing compelling on the market place currently. The G35 coupe looks interesting, but I am enclined to save up my northern peso's and waiting for a V8 powered M3 or S4 or perhaps even bypass the entire mainstream lineup and get a couple year old 996 as the next car.

- JP
I agree. The upcoming S4 looks very promising...
 

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TD said:


You don't get it. If the actual car is even half as ugly as the CS1, WE WILL buy the Civic instead. Or a nice used E30.

Performance matters. But as I've said many times, if ugly didn't matter at all, we'd all be driving WRXs. The new BMW designs are, IMO, MUCH uglier than the WRX. And the WRX is growing on me. The E65 is not.
Screw the Civic. Give me an SVT Focus.

I've posted before that I don't find the CS1 as objectionable, overall, as I did when I first saw it. The details are horrific, but at least the proportions are right. I sort of like the renderings of the 318ti-esque coupe that I've seen, too. The 1er thus at least has the potential to meet my minimum thresholds of attractiveness, especially since I think a dark color will tend to hide the awful crease and shut lines that make the CS1 look like its melting. If it drives well enough, maybe I can take my glasses off prior to entry and exit to blur the details. OTOH, if the car has iDrive and/or SMG (and no stick), it's off my list.

As for "German" engineering being superior to "Japanese" engineering, this is such a misplaced sentiment that I'm not sure it bears refuting. Indeed, it's usually impossible to disabuse people of such irrational, nationalistic, unfounded notions. I guess it's thus not worth pointing out that:
a) the ever-more global auto industry tends to be populated by engineers who study in more than just their home country, work for more than just their own nation's automakers, and study and improve on the work of other engineers throughout the world, and
b) even if you accept the corrupt notion that there is something called "Japanese" engineering that can be distinguished from "German" engineering, it is laugable to say that the latter is "superior" to the former. I can think of many instances where products from Japanese companies have more advanced, more elegant, or more durable designs than those from German companies. Case in point: How many B18C engines have you heard of spinning a bearing? Contrast this to the S54, and cogitate...
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
ALEX325i said:


Hmmm... That doesn't seem to be the case with the E65...

What you guys don't see is that while "enthusiasts" may not like the future models, if such models do reach more and more people (i.e. those who currently drive cars we consider hideous), BMW has succeeded as a company: increased revenue = profit = happy shareholders. They're in the game of making money, NOT please purists...

Anyway, is that bad news for some of us? Maybe. I think I'm lucky. I like the E65 (not a car I'd buy anytime soon - I don't need a big sedan and am not ready to give up on my third pedal). I like the upcoming 5 based on computer generated pix I've seen. I see NOTHING wrong with the CS1 (especially considering its estimated price tag). Granted, I don't like the upcoming 6 and Z4 based on spy pix I've seen, but if they prove to be a blast to drive, I may even consider an M6 in the future (provided that SMGII is not the ONLY tranny available).
You're still missing the point. I'm with you, I like the new 7. Moreover, when compared to the other options, if you want performance the 7 is they only option. IMO the others in the class are more luxury than sport.

Now, unlike TD, I don't think the WRX is a good comparison because it is all performance. Most of us buy BMW for the performance-luxury mix. However, if you compare the 3 series with the A4, IS 300, G35, etc (all that have that mix of performance and luxury), if these others continue to improve to the point where the offer similar performance and the next 3 is ugly, the sales from most people (i.e., the ones who don't care it says BMW on it) will go to the more attractive vehicle.

Ok, I know that's a lot of "ifs," but the point is that BMW shouldn't rely on the past years sales as a blank check to simply do as they please. Yes, BMW is trying to make money, but in the process they shouldn't ignore those that they know are willing to pay that money again. :thumb:
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
JPinTO said:


Never underestimate the American public's appetite for generic cars. That public has kept the Big 3 pumping out crap for decades and they are still the largest automakers on the planet.

IMO, The uglification (or more precisely, the blandification) of the 3-series will be met well by the general public who aren't really that up on small details that distinguish vehicles. If it says BMW on the hood, then by gosh, they will buy them.

I bet that BMW will continue to gain market share as it's products go very mainstream with generic looking, sloppy steering&suspensions & auto tranny's galore. That may not work well for the enthusiast, driving them to M-cars, Porsche's or someone else.

Intersting position there. I'm just not sure I'm willing to buy the idea that the "wild" designs Bangle's team is pushing are really "bland" or "generic." For example, I think the current 5 is more mainstream than the next-gen (The same could be said of the old vs. new 7 as well).
 

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JST said:

As for "German" engineering being superior to "Japanese" engineering, this is such a misplaced sentiment that I'm not sure it bears refuting. Indeed, it's usually impossible to disabuse people of such irrational, nationalistic, unfounded notions. I guess it's thus not worth pointing out that:
a) the ever-more global auto industry tends to be populated by engineers who study in more than just their home country, work for more than just their own nation's automakers, and study and improve on the work of other engineers throughout the world, and
b) even if you accept the corrupt notion that there is something called "Japanese" engineering that can be distinguished from "German" engineering, it is laugable to say that the latter is "superior" to the former. I can think of many instances where products from Japanese companies have more advanced, more elegant, or more durable designs than those from German companies. Case in point: How many B18C engines have you heard of spinning a bearing? Contrast this to the S54, and cogitate...
That's MY opinion. I find German engineering superior. It has NOTHING to do with nationalism, etc.

UGH, save the "globalization" lecture, dude. I deal with people from different nationalities ON A DAILY BASIS. "Intelligence" is not a German privilege... So I could've put that in a different way. Sue me. :tsk:

The bottom line is: I like German cars better. Period. I'm NOT asking/expecting YOUR approval. Screw the Civic? :tsk: Heck, I'd consider a Civic before I'd even think about a Focus (UGH!).

Sure, the S54 sucks... :tsk: Actually everything that's BMW related sucks. I really don't know why you still drive one... Go get that Focus already. But hurry while your E36 M3's still worth something.
 

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ALEX325i said:

The bottom line is: I like German cars better. Period. I'm asking/expecting YOUR approval. Screw the Civic? :tsk: Heck, I'd consider a Civic before I'd even think about a Focus (UGH!).

Sure, the S54 sucks... :tsk: Actually everything that's BMW related sucks. I really don't know why you still drive one... Go get that Focus already. But hurry while your E36 M3's still worth something.
I agree with JST, I would rather have the SVT Focus over any Civic we can get :bigpimp:
 

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nate328Ci said:


I agree with JST, I would rather have the SVT Focus over any Civic we can get :bigpimp:
Well, I wouldn't buy a Civic either. A Golf 1.8T works better for me... :thumb: But given the choice between Focus and Civic. I'd go with the Civic...
 

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ALEX325i said:


Well, I wouldn't buy a Civic either. A Golf 1.8T works better for me... :thumb: But given the choice between Focus and Civic. I'd go with the Civic...
Go read the comparison test in CD :rolleyes: The Focus outhandled them BADLY. But, I would suspect that if the Golf had major suspension work, it could be real screamer :bigpimp:
 

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nate328Ci said:


Go read the comparison test in CD :rolleyes: The Focus outhandled them BADLY. But, I would suspect that if the Golf had major suspension work, it could be real screamer :bigpimp:
I saw that. I don't think the Golf needs a major suspension work though... If I remember right, they said that better tires alone would've helped a lot...
 
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