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BS' Bimmer said:

BMW WILL LOSE SALES!
Hmmm... That doesn't seem to be the case with the E65...

What you guys don't see is that while "enthusiasts" may not like the future models, if such models do reach more and more people (i.e. those who currently drive cars we consider hideous), BMW has succeeded as a company: increased revenue = profit = happy shareholders. They're in the game of making money, NOT please purists...

Anyway, is that bad news for some of us? Maybe. I think I'm lucky. I like the E65 (not a car I'd buy anytime soon - I don't need a big sedan and am not ready to give up on my third pedal). I like the upcoming 5 based on computer generated pix I've seen. I see NOTHING wrong with the CS1 (especially considering its estimated price tag). Granted, I don't like the upcoming 6 and Z4 based on spy pix I've seen, but if they prove to be a blast to drive, I may even consider an M6 in the future (provided that SMGII is not the ONLY tranny available).
 

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TD said:


You don't get it. If the actual car is even half as ugly as the CS1, WE WILL buy the Civic instead. Or a nice used E30.
We???

Performance matters. But as I've said many times, if ugly didn't matter at all, we'd all be driving WRXs. The new BMW designs are, IMO, MUCH uglier than the WRX. And the WRX is growing on me. The E65 is not.
Speak for yourself. No matter how fugly current/future BMW designs are, the WRX would still beat them hands down, and I'd still not buy one. Why would I? Just to make a "statement"? Sorry, not a teenager anymore... If I were to make a statement, I'd buy a 6er and be done with it. Besides, to me it's all about engineering, heritage. German engineering IS superior.

Anyway, it's not like I'll have that problem. I see nothing wrong with current/future models. Like I said above, I really don't see anything wrong with the CS1. Especially considering its estimated price tag... Nate's right. Honda vs BMW @ same price range? BMW, hands down.

PS: If you start getting smoked by every other 1er on the road, keep these "functional" mods in mind... I'm sure you'll have NO problems getting them. Every 16-year old out there can hook you up.

 

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JPinTO said:


Never underestimate the American public's appetite for generic cars. That public has kept the Big 3 pumping out crap for decades and they are still the largest automakers on the planet.
To me that has nothing to do with the "American public's appetite for generic cars". That has to do with price tag. People will always buy GM, Ford, and Chrysler's "crap" as long as it is cheap... But maybe that's exactly what you meant...

IMO, The uglification (or more precisely, the blandification) of the 3-series will be met well by the general public who aren't really that up on small details that distinguish vehicles. If it says BMW on the hood, then by gosh, they will buy them.
A bit early to speak, don't you think? Rumor has it the next 3 will be a back to basics driver's car. In theory, the same applies to the upcoming Z5...

I bet that BMW will continue to gain market share as it's products go very mainstream with generic looking, sloppy steering&suspensions & auto tranny's galore. That may not work well for the enthusiast, driving them to M-cars, Porsche's or someone else.
You bet??? It's called business... Personally, I've never thought of BMWs as exclusive cars anyway (OK, I consider the Z8 an "exotic"). To me they've always been mainstream. Want a bit (and that's a little tiny bit) of exclusivity? You're right - go M. That's what Motorsport divisions are usually all about (i.e. M, AMG, SVT, etc)...

Oh well, I'm sticking with my 2000 323i for quite awhile, and have scrapped the idea of replacing it in the next year or 2. Although I really should replace it as I have passed 61000 miles already---61k reliable, fun filled miles! :) :) .

There is nothing compelling on the market place currently. The G35 coupe looks interesting, but I am enclined to save up my northern peso's and waiting for a V8 powered M3 or S4 or perhaps even bypass the entire mainstream lineup and get a couple year old 996 as the next car.

- JP
I agree. The upcoming S4 looks very promising...
 

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JST said:

As for "German" engineering being superior to "Japanese" engineering, this is such a misplaced sentiment that I'm not sure it bears refuting. Indeed, it's usually impossible to disabuse people of such irrational, nationalistic, unfounded notions. I guess it's thus not worth pointing out that:
a) the ever-more global auto industry tends to be populated by engineers who study in more than just their home country, work for more than just their own nation's automakers, and study and improve on the work of other engineers throughout the world, and
b) even if you accept the corrupt notion that there is something called "Japanese" engineering that can be distinguished from "German" engineering, it is laugable to say that the latter is "superior" to the former. I can think of many instances where products from Japanese companies have more advanced, more elegant, or more durable designs than those from German companies. Case in point: How many B18C engines have you heard of spinning a bearing? Contrast this to the S54, and cogitate...
That's MY opinion. I find German engineering superior. It has NOTHING to do with nationalism, etc.

UGH, save the "globalization" lecture, dude. I deal with people from different nationalities ON A DAILY BASIS. "Intelligence" is not a German privilege... So I could've put that in a different way. Sue me. :tsk:

The bottom line is: I like German cars better. Period. I'm NOT asking/expecting YOUR approval. Screw the Civic? :tsk: Heck, I'd consider a Civic before I'd even think about a Focus (UGH!).

Sure, the S54 sucks... :tsk: Actually everything that's BMW related sucks. I really don't know why you still drive one... Go get that Focus already. But hurry while your E36 M3's still worth something.
 

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nate328Ci said:


I agree with JST, I would rather have the SVT Focus over any Civic we can get :bigpimp:
Well, I wouldn't buy a Civic either. A Golf 1.8T works better for me... :thumb: But given the choice between Focus and Civic. I'd go with the Civic...
 

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nate328Ci said:


Go read the comparison test in CD :rolleyes: The Focus outhandled them BADLY. But, I would suspect that if the Golf had major suspension work, it could be real screamer :bigpimp:
I saw that. I don't think the Golf needs a major suspension work though... If I remember right, they said that better tires alone would've helped a lot...
 

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BS' Bimmer said:

...but the point is that BMW shouldn't rely on the past years sales as a blank check to simply do as they please. Yes, BMW is trying to make money, but in the process they shouldn't ignore those that they know are willing to pay that money again. :thumb:
Oh, I couldn't agree more. :thumb:
 

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nate328Ci said:


It was a component, but the Focus' chassis outclasses ALL it's comptetetors :thumb:
True. I still wouldn't buy one though... The car simply doesn't do anything for me... :dunno: I really like the Golf better...

I drove an A3 (1.8T, 5-speed) in Germany two years ago during the Expo 2000. The car was a blast to drive and handled VERY well. It shares the exact same platform... I don't think VW would use a different suspension on the Golf... :dunno:
 

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Castigating??? LOL! Easy... Ignore my posts. Like I said, I'm not asking/expecting YOUR approval OR understanding...

See, that's what you and others with that "holier-than-thou" attitude fail to understand. Nobody has to stop saying anything. Last I checked, this was still a free country. If I like German engineering better OR find it superior (for whatever reasons), I don't have to stop saying/thinking it is...

While I knew the Focus had been (mostly?) developed/designed in Europe, I did NOT know it had been developed/designed in Germany. That only shows how much I care...

(Sigh) I was going to reply to your mile long post, but you know what? Whatever... I'm REALLY not in the mood and REALLY am not seeking for your approval/understanding... And just so we don't "punish" each other anymore, you're now on my Ignore list.

JST said:
Heh. You're the one continually castigating me for posting "opinions" that I fail to identify as such. Turnabout, etc.

And if you want to be spared lectures on globalization, a good starting point would be to stop making statements like "German engineering IS superior," especially when that assertion follows a musing like "it's all about engineering, heritage."

Besides, your logic isn't even internally consistent. Ford's European HQ is in Cologne, Germany. The Focus is a European Ford. Ergo, the Focus is chock full of "German" engineering. If you prefer "German" cars to Japanese vehicles, why buy a Civic over a Focus?

It doesn't matter to me which cars you prefer. We all have fundamentally irrational preferences when it comes to buying cars. If there were a numeric formula that led to successful car designs, there would be very little variety in the world. I have no objection whatsoever to you prefering the Civic over the Focus, or the M3 over the Corvette, or the E65 over the S-class, and furthermore I can understand and respect why you have each of those preferences.

If you want to generalize your biases in terms of preferences, that's fine, too. For example, I tend to prefer Fords to other cars for irrational reasons having to do with my upbringing, and I tend to enjoy V8 musclecars all out of proportion to their objective merit (for similar reasons). You prefer the feel of European cars to Japanese cars, and give more weight to performance than style. That doesn't mean that I would only buy Fords (obviously), that I would actually plunk down cash for a Marauder, that you would never buy a Japanese car over a European car, or that you would never make a decision as between two cars based on aesthetics.

All of that is fine. What rubs me the wrong way is when people try to couch their fundamentally irrational desires in rigid, generic statements like "German engineering IS superior to Japanese engineering."

In any event, we both post to this board because of enthusiasm for BMW products. I like them, you like them. Fine. I don't think all BMW products are crap, and I think you know that. However, I also don't hesitate to call BMW on a problem, and I don't romanticize the company. They make mistakes, just like everyone else, and some of those mistakes are design related (E65, IMHO), some are engineering related (well-documented main bearing failures in the S54), some are supplier related (fans overheating and burning down cars and sometimes garages), and some are assembly related (wheel mounting machine poking holes in Type 44 wheels). None of these mistakes diminishes my enthusiasm for the marque, and none are mistakes that couldn't be (or haven't been) made by every other auto maker on the planet.

Just because BMW usually makes great cars doesn't give them a free pass. If they trip up, we shouldn't be afraid to say so. If we just sat around here sighing about how grand our Bavarian machines were, we wouldn't be a very big force for positive change. It was through people complaining that the steering retrofit was instituted, that the thermostat problems came to light, that information about the fan problems was disseminated, etc. These boards are how I know that nearly every S52 engine needs a new crankshaft position sensor at some point, and that it's not uncommon for the clock bulb to burn out (and thus not to be upset or concerned about either), just to name two close-to-home examples. To a large extent, these kinds of complaints are the most valuable thing that comes out of these boards.

Also, I can't let the fact that Nate and I agree on something pass without comment. :thumb:

 
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