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BS' Bimmer said:

...but the point is that BMW shouldn't rely on the past years sales as a blank check to simply do as they please. Yes, BMW is trying to make money, but in the process they shouldn't ignore those that they know are willing to pay that money again. :thumb:
Oh, I couldn't agree more. :thumb:
 

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nate328Ci said:


It was a component, but the Focus' chassis outclasses ALL it's comptetetors :thumb:
True. I still wouldn't buy one though... The car simply doesn't do anything for me... :dunno: I really like the Golf better...

I drove an A3 (1.8T, 5-speed) in Germany two years ago during the Expo 2000. The car was a blast to drive and handled VERY well. It shares the exact same platform... I don't think VW would use a different suspension on the Golf... :dunno:
 

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A sudden sense of liberty
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Heh. You're the one continually castigating me for posting "opinions" that I fail to identify as such. Turnabout, etc.

And if you want to be spared lectures on globalization, a good starting point would be to stop making statements like "German engineering IS superior," especially when that assertion follows a musing like "it's all about engineering, heritage."

Besides, your logic isn't even internally consistent. Ford's European HQ is in Cologne, Germany. The Focus is a European Ford. Ergo, the Focus is chock full of "German" engineering. If you prefer "German" cars to Japanese vehicles, why buy a Civic over a Focus?

It doesn't matter to me which cars you prefer. We all have fundamentally irrational preferences when it comes to buying cars. If there were a numeric formula that led to successful car designs, there would be very little variety in the world. I have no objection whatsoever to you prefering the Civic over the Focus, or the M3 over the Corvette, or the E65 over the S-class, and furthermore I can understand and respect why you have each of those preferences.

If you want to generalize your biases in terms of preferences, that's fine, too. For example, I tend to prefer Fords to other cars for irrational reasons having to do with my upbringing, and I tend to enjoy V8 musclecars all out of proportion to their objective merit (for similar reasons). You prefer the feel of European cars to Japanese cars, and give more weight to performance than style. That doesn't mean that I would only buy Fords (obviously), that I would actually plunk down cash for a Marauder, that you would never buy a Japanese car over a European car, or that you would never make a decision as between two cars based on aesthetics.

All of that is fine. What rubs me the wrong way is when people try to couch their fundamentally irrational desires in rigid, generic statements like "German engineering IS superior to Japanese engineering."

In any event, we both post to this board because of enthusiasm for BMW products. I like them, you like them. Fine. I don't think all BMW products are crap, and I think you know that. However, I also don't hesitate to call BMW on a problem, and I don't romanticize the company. They make mistakes, just like everyone else, and some of those mistakes are design related (E65, IMHO), some are engineering related (well-documented main bearing failures in the S54), some are supplier related (fans overheating and burning down cars and sometimes garages), and some are assembly related (wheel mounting machine poking holes in Type 44 wheels). None of these mistakes diminishes my enthusiasm for the marque, and none are mistakes that couldn't be (or haven't been) made by every other auto maker on the planet.

Just because BMW usually makes great cars doesn't give them a free pass. If they trip up, we shouldn't be afraid to say so. If we just sat around here sighing about how grand our Bavarian machines were, we wouldn't be a very big force for positive change. It was through people complaining that the steering retrofit was instituted, that the thermostat problems came to light, that information about the fan problems was disseminated, etc. These boards are how I know that nearly every S52 engine needs a new crankshaft position sensor at some point, and that it's not uncommon for the clock bulb to burn out (and thus not to be upset or concerned about either), just to name two close-to-home examples. To a large extent, these kinds of complaints are the most valuable thing that comes out of these boards.

Also, I can't let the fact that Nate and I agree on something pass without comment. :thumb:

ALEX325i said:


That's MY opinion. I find German engineering superior. It has NOTHING to do with nationalism, etc.

UGH, save the "globalization" lecture, dude. I deal with people from different nationalities ON A DAILY BASIS. "Intelligence" is not a German privilege... So I could've put that in a different way. Sue me. :tsk:

The bottom line is: I like German cars better. Period. I'm NOT asking/expecting YOUR approval. Screw the Civic? :tsk: Heck, I'd consider a Civic before I'd even think about a Focus (UGH!).

Sure, the S54 sucks... :tsk: Actually everything that's BMW related sucks. I really don't know why you still drive one... Go get that Focus already. But hurry while your E36 M3's still worth something.
 

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Castigating??? LOL! Easy... Ignore my posts. Like I said, I'm not asking/expecting YOUR approval OR understanding...

See, that's what you and others with that "holier-than-thou" attitude fail to understand. Nobody has to stop saying anything. Last I checked, this was still a free country. If I like German engineering better OR find it superior (for whatever reasons), I don't have to stop saying/thinking it is...

While I knew the Focus had been (mostly?) developed/designed in Europe, I did NOT know it had been developed/designed in Germany. That only shows how much I care...

(Sigh) I was going to reply to your mile long post, but you know what? Whatever... I'm REALLY not in the mood and REALLY am not seeking for your approval/understanding... And just so we don't "punish" each other anymore, you're now on my Ignore list.

JST said:
Heh. You're the one continually castigating me for posting "opinions" that I fail to identify as such. Turnabout, etc.

And if you want to be spared lectures on globalization, a good starting point would be to stop making statements like "German engineering IS superior," especially when that assertion follows a musing like "it's all about engineering, heritage."

Besides, your logic isn't even internally consistent. Ford's European HQ is in Cologne, Germany. The Focus is a European Ford. Ergo, the Focus is chock full of "German" engineering. If you prefer "German" cars to Japanese vehicles, why buy a Civic over a Focus?

It doesn't matter to me which cars you prefer. We all have fundamentally irrational preferences when it comes to buying cars. If there were a numeric formula that led to successful car designs, there would be very little variety in the world. I have no objection whatsoever to you prefering the Civic over the Focus, or the M3 over the Corvette, or the E65 over the S-class, and furthermore I can understand and respect why you have each of those preferences.

If you want to generalize your biases in terms of preferences, that's fine, too. For example, I tend to prefer Fords to other cars for irrational reasons having to do with my upbringing, and I tend to enjoy V8 musclecars all out of proportion to their objective merit (for similar reasons). You prefer the feel of European cars to Japanese cars, and give more weight to performance than style. That doesn't mean that I would only buy Fords (obviously), that I would actually plunk down cash for a Marauder, that you would never buy a Japanese car over a European car, or that you would never make a decision as between two cars based on aesthetics.

All of that is fine. What rubs me the wrong way is when people try to couch their fundamentally irrational desires in rigid, generic statements like "German engineering IS superior to Japanese engineering."

In any event, we both post to this board because of enthusiasm for BMW products. I like them, you like them. Fine. I don't think all BMW products are crap, and I think you know that. However, I also don't hesitate to call BMW on a problem, and I don't romanticize the company. They make mistakes, just like everyone else, and some of those mistakes are design related (E65, IMHO), some are engineering related (well-documented main bearing failures in the S54), some are supplier related (fans overheating and burning down cars and sometimes garages), and some are assembly related (wheel mounting machine poking holes in Type 44 wheels). None of these mistakes diminishes my enthusiasm for the marque, and none are mistakes that couldn't be (or haven't been) made by every other auto maker on the planet.

Just because BMW usually makes great cars doesn't give them a free pass. If they trip up, we shouldn't be afraid to say so. If we just sat around here sighing about how grand our Bavarian machines were, we wouldn't be a very big force for positive change. It was through people complaining that the steering retrofit was instituted, that the thermostat problems came to light, that information about the fan problems was disseminated, etc. These boards are how I know that nearly every S52 engine needs a new crankshaft position sensor at some point, and that it's not uncommon for the clock bulb to burn out (and thus not to be upset or concerned about either), just to name two close-to-home examples. To a large extent, these kinds of complaints are the most valuable thing that comes out of these boards.

Also, I can't let the fact that Nate and I agree on something pass without comment. :thumb:

 

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Discussion Starter · #26 ·
nate328Ci said:


The next Mustang Cobra could be an incredibly good car :yikes: :thumb:
My friend has a 99 Cobra (? Which ever year was the year of the missing horsepower, that's his) and the thing is a blast to drive. Add a bunch of HP, and I'm with you . . . the new one is :yikes: :yikes:
 

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ALEX325i said:
Castigating??? LOL! Easy... Ignore my posts. Like I said, I'm not asking/expecting YOUR approval OR understanding...

See, that's what you and others with that "holier-than-thou" attitude fail to understand. Nobody has to stop saying anything. Last I checked, this was still a free country. If I like German engineering better OR find it superior (for whatever reasons), I don't have to stop saying/thinking it is...

While I knew the Focus had been (mostly?) developed/designed in Europe, I did NOT know it had been developed/designed in Germany. That only shows how much I care...

(Sigh) I was going to reply to your mile long post, but you know what? Whatever... I'm REALLY not in the mood and REALLY am not seeking for your approval/understanding... And just so we don't "punish" each other anymore, you're now on my Ignore list.

I'm not trying to get you to stop saying anything; I'm just trying to find common ground, and to understand what you actually ARE saying. That's what discussions (and, by extension, bulletin boards) are for. I think to say that I am "holier-than-thou" is a mischaracterization. Our (primarily aesthetic) preferences differ, that's all. I never claimed that any of my preferences or opinions had any more inherent validity than yours. No big deal, IMHO. :confused:

But if you want to ignore me, that's fine, too. :thumb:
 

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A sudden sense of liberty
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nate328Ci said:


The next Mustang Cobra could be an incredibly good car :yikes: :thumb:
Yikes! Twice in one day!

Actually, the emphasis has to be on "could." There are a lot of positive signs with the new Cobra, but have you seen the rendering in Automobile this month? While I'm not a big fan of being different for the sake of being different, the retro pastiche styling that Ford is doing under J Mays just doesn't do anything for me; it's too far in the other direction. Building an essentially exact replica of a GT40 (or a 1968 Mustang) isn't advancing the breed. It's living in the past.

But the mechanicals are all there, and if Ford can get their recent product launch quality issues ironed out, it could very well be an exciting car.
 

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JST said:


Yikes! Twice in one day!

Actually, the emphasis has to be on "could." There are a lot of positive signs with the new Cobra, but have you seen the rendering in Automobile this month? While I'm not a big fan of being different for the sake of being different, the retro pastiche styling that Ford is doing under J Mays just doesn't do anything for me; it's too far in the other direction. Building an essentially exact replica of a GT40 (or a 1968 Mustang) isn't advancing the breed. It's living in the past.

But the mechanicals are all there, and if Ford can get their recent product launch quality issues ironed out, it could very well be an exciting car.
I too would rather see some good original designs...

Did you see that Bangle said that by the time Mays has retired he will have worked his way back to the Model-T? :lmao:
 

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nate328Ci said:


I too would rather see some good original designs...

Did you see that Bangle said that by the time Mays has retired he will have worked his way back to the Model-T? :lmao:
Yeah, I thought that was funny (and disturbingly true). I like Mays' original work, though it all sort of ends up looking like the Passat. I was OK with the Thunderbird, too. But the GT40 is too much; why even bother building such a thing? Ford should build *new* legends, rather than reissuing old ones.
 
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