Bimmerfest BMW banner

3481 - 3500 of 8444 Posts

·
The Canadian Prick.
Joined
·
12,984 Posts
Not to mention the danger they put the public and themselves in by firing 19 shots in a concrete jungle. No warning shots, no shots meant to wound.
https://www.policeone.com/patrol-issues/articles/2071009-Why-shooting-to-wound-doesnt-make-sense-scientifically-legally-or-tactically/



Read this, then I'd love to hear your thoughts on it please Andrew.


For your argument that only one officer should shoot at a time, well, frankly, officers do not train in large coordinated groups.

When a call comes in for an emergency or rapidly escalating situation, whichever officers happen to be in the area arrive as quickly as they can. There is no time to have a group huddle and discuss who shoots in what order.

As for the number of shots fired? I have been trained to fire three rounds at a time towards a threat. How many officers were surrounding him? How many rounds were fired? Seriously, Matt. Do officers supply their own ammunition? Why were so few rounds fired?

For the whole military using police videos for what not to do... Well, in combat, not too many people are paying attention to shooting their cameras. Frankly, there are far fewer combat videos shot by bystanders in a combat zone.
 

·
Insane in the membrane!
Joined
·
4,561 Posts
I think it's relevant. You claim police should be able to fire their weapon under high stress and hit a moving person's leg. (Not garunteeing that person will surrender) Yet you make it seem hard to open your hand and drop something.

I think dropping something is a much more reasonable act.
Was never my intention to make it seem hard to open your hand to drop something! The point is that YOU have no control over it! How easy is it for people to step down from a ledge when they are contemplating jumping? $hit I don't know, does it matter? No, not really, we just have to get them down and do our best to to save their life. My claim in this particular conversation is that man could have been shot in his legs, people were close enough, and he was moving slowly enough. Shouldn't be that hard to imagine. 19 shots fired with 15 hits, indicates to me that aiming below the waist would have yielded some hits as well, if he had survived great, if not, well at least they tried not to kill him.
 

·
Needs Boost
Joined
·
12,109 Posts
This is an example. Trooper shot the suspect 6 times if I remeber. Trooper was shot and killed while the suspect lived.

https://youtu.be/2FraE77l4fI

We are trained to shoot until the threat is gone.

It would be easy for a large number of cops to shoot a suspect many times, because when you hear a gunshot you all react together. They probably each only fired a round or two. Whereas if you look at police shootings with one officer, usually the officer empties the magazine. Sometimes that isn't even enough.

Here is a local shooting near me.

https://youtu.be/mHh0WLa2rfk

Suspect was wanted for murder and shot multiple times but didn't stop. I believe it was about 8 seconds the suspect kept throwing things after being shot. Had he have been shot in the leg, it probably wouldn't have phased him.

We watched both these videos in the academy. It shows bullets don't always shot the suspect.
 

·
Insane in the membrane!
Joined
·
4,561 Posts
https://www.policeone.com/patrol-issues/articles/2071009-Why-shooting-to-wound-doesnt-make-sense-scientifically-legally-or-tactically/



Read this, then I'd love to hear your thoughts on it please Andrew.


For your argument that only one officer should shoot at a time, well, frankly, officers do not train in large coordinated groups.

When a call comes in for an emergency or rapidly escalating situation, whichever officers happen to be in the area arrive as quickly as they can. There is no time to have a group huddle and discuss who shoots in what order.
I never said any of that.

I read it, it makes sense, but nothing was moving fast in this situation, he wasn't threatening anyone, and all he had was a kitchen knife...
 

·
The Canadian Prick.
Joined
·
12,984 Posts
https://www.policeone.com/patrol-issues/articles/2071009-Why-shooting-to-wound-doesnt-make-sense-scientifically-legally-or-tactically/



Read this, then I'd love to hear your thoughts on it please Andrew.


For your argument that only one officer should shoot at a time, well, frankly, officers do not train in large coordinated groups.
I never said any of that.

I read it, it makes sense, but nothing was moving fast in this situation, he wasn't threatening anyone, and all he had was a kitchen knife...
Those are fair points about tasers. Except it looks like there was non-moving opportunity, and certainly slow moving opportunity. But it doesn't justify his death. Not to mention the danger they put the public and themselves in by firing 19 shots in a concrete jungle. No warning shots, no shots meant to wound.

"My problem with discussions like this is that almost all police use of force would be avoided if the suspect would listen to commands." - You're right, all criminals who aren't right in the head should just listen to commands.

"And I don't defend every officers decision. Some make bad calls but you don't know what you would do in every situation. I don't care if you think you do because adrenalin gets to you along with stress and changes things." Wouldn't it be interesting if criminals were always given the same consideration, because apparently I can't even criticize a cop in any personal capacity because of his adrenaline.

"Some make bad calls but you don't know what you would do in every situation." - Does that apply to the suspect too? Because I'm pretty sure I would rather be a cop in that situation than him, and not because I know he dies at the end. I never said I wouldn't be scared, I said I don't think I would be scared for my life. He wasn't moving fast towards anyone, I would have 9 other men with their guns all pointing at him, keep a safe distance, keep your gun pointed at him, if he charges at you, shoot him, if you miss, you got 9 other fully loaded guns already aimed at him. Sure I won't pretend to know what that situation is like, maybe we shouldn't put people into service who are so high strung in a situation like this. Maybe they need better training so they can be more objective and less overcome by adrenaline.

I'm not joining this circle jerk.
So if only one officer is to pull their trigger at a time, how can they coordinate this? As I stated, a huddle is not an available option. "Excuse me mister/miss potential threat, could we please stop the clock a moment?" Sorry. Doesn't work.


For the "in this case" argument. Training is done to impart quickest reaction in a situation instinctively, without the need for thought. Taking time to analyze the perfect reaction to every possible situation gets innocent people killed. Part of this is to desensitize the shooter.

A fantastic book on the subject is by Lt. Col David Grossman. On Killing: The Psychological Cost of Learning to Kill in War and Society I think you might be receptive to a great many points he makes Andrew.
 

·
Insane in the membrane!
Joined
·
4,561 Posts
This is an example. Trooper shot the suspect 6 times if I remeber. Trooper was shot and killed while the suspect lived.

https://youtu.be/2FraE77l4fI
I don't see how this has anything to do with this.

https://youtu.be/mHh0WLa2rfk
We watched both these videos in the academy. It shows bullets don't always shot the suspect.
Fair enough, but he was already in a rage, and he was actually throwing things at the officers and they didn't know what he was reaching for every time he went to reach for something. He could have been reaching for a gun.
 

·
Insane in the membrane!
Joined
·
4,561 Posts

·
Insane in the membrane!
Joined
·
4,561 Posts
So if only one officer is to pull their trigger at a time, how can they coordinate this? As I stated, a huddle is not an available option. "Excuse me mister/miss potential threat, could we please stop the clock a moment?" Sorry. Doesn't work.
I actually wasn't trying to imply that only one officer shoots at a time, more just pointing out the fact that if he had missed his shots there would already be 9 other officers shooting at him.

For the "in this case" argument. Training is done to impart quickest reaction in a situation instinctively, without the need for thought. Taking time to analyze the perfect reaction to every possible situation gets innocent people killed. Part of this is to desensitize the shooter.
Sorry but I won't be convinced that there was a good reason for him to take 15 bullets for slowly walking with a kitchen knife in his hand.

A fantastic book on the subject is by Lt. Col David Grossman. On Killing: The Psychological Cost of Learning to Kill in War and Society I think you might be receptive to a great many points he makes Andrew.
Noted, I'm sure I would be.
 

·
Needs Boost
Joined
·
12,109 Posts
So is this when I start looking up all the people who were saved by using a taser?

Sure!

But call me biased, I'd rather see an armed suspect who may have stabbed someone lose their life than someone trying to protect the public.




I don't see how this has anything to do with this.

I was showing the reason there were so many shots fired. One shot usually does not stop a threat.

Fair enough, but he was already in a rage, and he was actually throwing things at the officers and they didn't know what he was reaching for every time he went to reach for something. He could have been reaching for a gun.
Exactly, he could have been reaching for anything.
 

·
Insane in the membrane!
Joined
·
4,561 Posts
Sure!

But call me biased, I'd rather see an armed suspect who may have stabbed someone lose their life than someone trying to protect the public.
I don't see how use of a taser in this situation equates to an officer losing his life. Unlike the news article you just posted, this guy had a knife in his hand, not a gun.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
12,381 Posts
ok, for real guys.....this is starting to get on my nerves....if i want to partake in useless pissing in the wind i would visit the poly-sci forum....:tsk::mad::dunno:


give it a rest. please. drop the topic. i do not wish to see this sink into a "who can go tit-for-tat-with-youtube-the young turks-videos" to prove who is "more right".....



can we pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeese get back to discussion on why chryslers suck or what sort of offset i need to run 295/30/19's on my 318???:dunno:



df
 

·
Needs Boost
Joined
·
12,109 Posts
I actually wasn't trying to imply that only one officer shoots at a time, more just pointing out the fact that if he had missed his shots there would already be 9 other officers shooting at him.



Sorry but I won't be convinced that there was a good reason for him to take 15 bullets for slowly walking with a kitchen knife in his hand.



Noted, I'm sure I would be.
Please look up the gun vs knife rule. Welding a knife is extremely dangerous at 20 feet, let alone the suspect who was what? Less than 10 feet away then moved towards an officer.
 

·
Needs Boost
Joined
·
12,109 Posts
ok, for real guys.....this is starting to get on my nerves....if i want to partake in useless pissing in the wind i would visit the poly-sci forum....:tsk::mad::dunno:


give it a rest. please. drop the topic. i do not wish to see this sink into a "who can go tit-for-tat-with-youtube-the young turks-videos" to prove who is "more right".....



can we pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeese get back to discussion on why chryslers suck or what sort of offset i need to run 295/30/19's on my 318???:dunno:



df
Alright alright.

Find that manifold yet? Lol


Anyone have a nice clean M50 intake manifold for sale? I know I asked before but I had no luck.
 

·
Insane in the membrane!
Joined
·
4,561 Posts
Please look up the gun vs knife rule. Welding a knife is extremely dangerous at 20 feet, let alone the suspect who was what? Less than 10 feet away then moved towards an officer.
He was trying to move away from the Officer's, turned his back to most of them, but one of them intentionally got in front of his path, giving the illusion that he was walking towards one of the officers.
 

·
Insane in the membrane!
Joined
·
4,561 Posts
Alright alright.

Find that manifold yet? Lol


Anyone have a nice clean M50 intake manifold for sale? I know I asked before but I had no luck.
The local wrecker here as a bunch of clean M50 manifolds, how much would you be willing to spend including shipping?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
12,381 Posts
no, matt,....it is not to be found. not sure where it is and no idea when i will be able to go hunt deeper for it. it wasn't with the plastic bits i have set aside in the basement, and it wasn't in the hatch of the ti (where i seem to remember putting it for safe keeping), so who knows where it went....




df
 

·
Needs Boost
Joined
·
12,109 Posts
I'll check with them tomorrow to see how much they charge, if it is only $20 I could probably do it.
Okay thanks





no, matt,....it is not to be found. not sure where it is and no idea when i will be able to go hunt deeper for it. it wasn't with the plastic bits i have set aside in the basement, and it wasn't in the hatch of the ti (where i seem to remember putting it for safe keeping), so who knows where it went....




df
You haz too many BMWs!
 
3481 - 3500 of 8444 Posts
Top