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Denmark
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26 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
My current Michelin Pilotsport A/S 3, 245/45R18 100Y XL tires are going to get 15k miles not the 45K advertised. Ride good but handling was awful. If your highway was slightly uneven/rutted, it would try to oversteer to next lane.
I’m considering Pirelli P Zero AS plus or Goodyear Eagle Exhilerate. Michelin is marketing Pilotsport A/S 4 but I’m apprehensive about handling and tread life.
 

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Nuclear engineer
02/2012 X5 35d M57Y CPO 121K miles NOKIAN WR G3 30K miles
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23,970 Posts
My current Michelin Pilotsport A/S 3, 245/45R18 100Y XL tires are going to get 15k miles not the 45K advertised. Ride good but handling was awful. If your highway was slightly uneven/rutted, it would try to oversteer to next lane.
I’m considering Pirelli P Zero AS plus or Goodyear Eagle Exhilerate. Michelin is marketing Pilotsport A/S 4 but I’m apprehensive about handling and tread life.
I recommend an alignment to 0.02º toe-in with camber mid-range and the same left and right. You must specify precisely the numbers demanded as BMW alignment allowances are pointless, good only for the mechanic to bill an hour for a cigarette.

Note the use of HºM’S” rather than decimal degrees, tenth, and hundredths. 0.02º = 0º 1’ 12”

BMW F10 535i xDrive Sedan / Repair Manuals and Technical Data / 32 Steering and Wheel Alignment / 32 00 Steering, measurement /
32 00 Wheel Alignment F10 / 4WD Series
Observe test conditions!
Front axle:
Total toe-in0° 10' ± 12’
Total toe-in adjustment*0° 10' ± 4'
Toe difference** single wheel between left/ rightmax. 12'
Camber
(difference between left/right max. 30')
- 0° 12' ± 30’
Camber adjustment*- 0° 12' ± 25’
Toe difference angle (difference between left/right max. 30')- 1° 45'
Castor angle(difference between left/right max. 30')
Front wheel offset0° ± 15'
Maximum steering angle
‐ Inner cornering wheelCa. °42° 55'
‐ Outer cornering wheelCa. °33° 11'
Rear axle:
Total toe-in0° 18' ± 12'
Total toe-in adjustment* 0° 18' ± 4'
Camber (difference between left/right max. 30')-1° 50' ± 25'
Camber adjustment*-1° 50' ± 5'
Geometrical driving axis0° ± 12'
*Note: To minimise adjusting errors (measuring inaccuracies), use a narrower tolerance for adjusting toe/camber.

**Note: Toe difference front axle = criterion for steering wheel inclination
 

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2015 BMW 535i
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166 Posts
Did you get uneven wear on the tread? Some other form of degredation?
15k Seems pretty low!

FWIW, I have run Michelin Pilot Sport A/S 4 on staggered setup for ~10.5k miles so far. Absolutely no complaints and have been thoroughly happy with them.
Handling is great and treadwear has not been excessive.

I'm also a bit OCD w/ frequent Cold Pressure Checks & slight adjustments.
 

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My current Michelin Pilotsport A/S 3, 245/45R18 100Y XL tires are going to get 15k miles not the 45K advertised. Ride good but handling was awful. If your highway was slightly uneven/rutted, it would try to oversteer to next lane.
I’m considering Pirelli P Zero AS plus or Goodyear Eagle Exhilerate. Michelin is marketing Pilotsport A/S 4 but I’m apprehensive about handling and tread life.
15k miles is not right. There is something else at play here. I've bounced around a few different tire models on BMWs through the years. Always return to Michelin, mostly on their A/S 3 or 4 now.
 

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Michelin Pilots are pretty much the gold standard.

I got 40k miles on my 535i out of PSS's, which have treadwear rating of only 300. The PS A/S's have a treadwear rating of 500. So, something's wrong with your situation.

Since you have a square set-up, you need to rotate the tires to get maximum life. The rear tires on BMW passenger cars wear more (about 100% more with RWD, about 50% more with AWD) and wear differently (more wear on the inner half of the tread due to rear wheel negative camber).

Tires on BMW SUV's tend to wear more on the outer half of the tread, due to less rear negative camber, higher center-of-mass causing more body roll in turns, and higher aspect ratio tire causing more "tucking under" in turns. From Uncle Dougie's post above, the F10's "factory spec'" for total front toe is 0° 10' ± 12’. That means that each side would be half that: 0° 5' ± 6’. (0.08° ±0.1°. Ignore the ±0.1°. If your suspension components are not damaged, an alignment should be able to hit that within 0.01° on each side.

Going to Uncle Dougie's 0.02° toe on each front wheel would exacerbate excessive wear on the inner half of the tread on an F10. Uncle Dougie drives an X5, so what works for his X5 doesn't necessarily work for BMW passenger cars. On BMW passenger cars, a small amount of toe tends to cancel out the uneven wear from the negative camber of the rear wheels.

I was having excessive rear, inner-edge wear. That turned out to be caused by worn-out or torn bushings. I'd hit a massive pothole.

With "factory spec's" toe, I'm still getting some excessive inner half wear.

My 535i's recommended pressures are 35 PSI front and 39 PSI rear. BMW usually runs the front tires a little low, sacrificing even tire wear for better ride quality. Using an iterative process, I've adjusted my pressures to 39 PSI front, and 40 PSI rear. Measure and adjust pressures in the early morning (the coolest part of the day, before sunlight hits the tires and heats them up) and when the car is completely cooled down from the previous night's driving.
 

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Nuclear engineer
02/2012 X5 35d M57Y CPO 121K miles NOKIAN WR G3 30K miles
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23,970 Posts
Interesting. So BMW allowed alignment causes, indeed exacerbates, excessive wear. 0.02º toe-in is about as small as it can get.
 

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Denmark
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26 Posts
Discussion Starter · #8 ·
My current Michelin Pilotsport A/S 3, 245/45R18 100Y XL tires are going to get 15k miles not the 45K advertised. Ride good but handling was awful. If your highway was slightly uneven/rutted, it would try to oversteer to next lane.
I’m considering Pirelli P Zero AS plus or Goodyear Eagle Exhilerate. Michelin is marketing Pilotsport A/S 4 but I’m apprehensive about handling and tread life.
I recommend an alignment to 0.02º toe-in with camber mid-range and the same left and right. You must specify precisely the numbers demanded as BMW alignment allowances are pointless, good only for the mechanic to bill an hour for a cigarette.

Note the use of HºM’S” rather than decimal degrees, tenth, and hundredths. 0.02º = 0º 1’ 12”

BMW F10 535i xDrive Sedan / Repair Manuals and Technical Data / 32 Steering and Wheel Alignment / 32 00 Steering, measurement /
32 00 Wheel Alignment F10 / 4WD Series
Observe test conditions!
Front axle:
Total toe-in0° 10' ± 12’
Total toe-in adjustment*0° 10' ± 4'
Toe difference** single wheel between left/ rightmax. 12'
Camber
(difference between left/right max. 30')
- 0° 12' ± 30’
Camber adjustment*- 0° 12' ± 25’
Toe difference angle (difference between left/right max. 30')- 1° 45'
Castor angle(difference between left/right max. 30')
Front wheel offset0° ± 15'
Maximum steering angle
‐ Inner cornering wheelCa. °42° 55'
‐ Outer cornering wheelCa. °33° 11'
Rear axle:
Total toe-in0° 18' ± 12'
Total toe-in adjustment* 0° 18' ± 4'
Camber (difference between left/right max. 30')-1° 50' ± 25'
Camber adjustment*-1° 50' ± 5'
Geometrical driving axis0° ± 12'
*Note: To minimise adjusting errors (measuring inaccuracies), use a narrower tolerance for adjusting toe/camber.

**Note: Toe difference front axle = criterion for steering wheel inclination
I recommend an alignment to 0.02º toe-in with camber mid-range and the same left and right. You must specify precisely the numbers demanded as BMW alignment allowances are pointless, good only for the mechanic to bill an hour for a cigarette.

Note the use of HºM’S” rather than decimal degrees, tenth, and hundredths. 0.02º = 0º 1’ 12”

BMW F10 535i xDrive Sedan / Repair Manuals and Technical Data / 32 Steering and Wheel Alignment / 32 00 Steering, measurement /
32 00 Wheel Alignment F10 / 4WD Series
Observe test conditions!
Front axle:
Total toe-in0° 10' ± 12’
Total toe-in adjustment*0° 10' ± 4'
Toe difference** single wheel between left/ rightmax. 12'
Camber
(difference between left/right max. 30')
- 0° 12' ± 30’
Camber adjustment*- 0° 12' ± 25’
Toe difference angle (difference between left/right max. 30')- 1° 45'
Castor angle(difference between left/right max. 30')
Front wheel offset0° ± 15'
Maximum steering angle
‐ Inner cornering wheelCa. °42° 55'
‐ Outer cornering wheelCa. °33° 11'
Rear axle:
Total toe-in0° 18' ± 12'
Total toe-in adjustment* 0° 18' ± 4'
Camber (difference between left/right max. 30')-1° 50' ± 25'
Camber adjustment*-1° 50' ± 5'
Geometrical driving axis0° ± 12'
*Note: To minimise adjusting errors (measuring inaccuracies), use a narrower tolerance for adjusting toe/camber.

**Note: Toe difference front axle = criterion for steering wheel inclination
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Denmark
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26 Posts
Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Did you get uneven wear on the tread? Some other form of degredation?
15k Seems pretty low!

FWIW, I have run Michelin Pilot Sport A/S 4 on staggered setup for ~10.5k miles so far. Absolutely no complaints and have been thoroughly happy with them.
Handling is great and treadwear has not been excessive.

I'm also a bit OCD w/ frequent Cold Pressure Checks & slight adjustments.
Very even treadwear. Edge treadwear negligible
 

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14,439 Posts
Interesting. So BMW allowed alignment causes, indeed exacerbates, excessive wear. 0.02º toe-in is about as small as it can get.
A little bit of toe-in will partially cancel the effects of negative camber (wheel tilted inward at the top). Both of my BMW passenger cars have had more wear on the inner half of the tread at the "factory settings" (mid-range on toe). In contrast, Frau Putzer's X3 has more wear on the outer half of the tread at the nominal, mid-range, "factory settings," etc.

Here's the alignment I got just before I got the new tires put on: I had them set the values to the nominal, mid-range, "factory settings," etc.

Rectangle Font Parallel Screenshot Number



Here's my wear data on the first 2800 miles of my new Michelin PS 4S's.

Rectangle Font Slope Line Parallel


The wear on the inner halves of the tires were about 0.2/32" more than on the outer halves of the tread. Having less toe would have made the uneven wear worse.

Note that my new PS 4S's wore an average of about 1/32" in just 2800 miles. "Max-performance, summer tires do that. I expect about the same wear (1/32") in the second rotation stint, but that rotation stint will be twice as long (~5300 miles). All-season, touring (low-performance) tires will wear slightly faster when new, but nothing like max-performance summer tires.

A little bit of toe-in also helps stability. That's why LCAC's (Navy hovercraft) have a lot of toe-in on their front thrusters.

Naval architecture Motor vehicle Water Vehicle Urban design
 

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2013 BMW 525i. 1976 BMW 2002.
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Tires always wear based on how you drive, where you drive, how you maintain your vehicle.

3 people with exactly the same car and same tires could get 40k, 60k, and 80k miles out of their tires. Obviously the person whose tires last the longest probably is driving in a manner that optimises their tread life. Be mindful, however, that one could be a gentle driver who maintains the car well, but does a lot of city street/ hills/ canyons etc driving.

Basically, every time you brake, accelerate or turn, you are wearing out your tires. City streets typically have sharp 90 degree turns, highways have long gentle turns. You have to start and stop repeatedly at traffic lights, stop signs, pedestrian crossings, etc etc etc in the city and suburbs. Highway you're just cruising mostly straight. Maintenance, well duh!

If previous, similar build/ performance tires lasted much longer than these then you definitely have a quarrel with someone about that.
 

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Denmark
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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Tires always wear based on how you drive, where you drive, how you maintain your vehicle.

3 people with exactly the same car and same tires could get 40k, 60k, and 80k miles out of their tires. Obviously the person whose tires last the longest probably is driving in a manner that optimises their tread life. Be mindful, however, that one could be a gentle driver who maintains the car well, but does a lot of city street/ hills/ canyons etc driving.

Basically, every time you brake, accelerate or turn, you are wearing out your tires. City streets typically have sharp 90 degree turns, highways have long gentle turns. You have to start and stop repeatedly at traffic lights, stop signs, pedestrian crossings, etc etc etc in the city and suburbs. Highway you're just cruising mostly straight. Maintenance, well duh!

If previous, similar build/ performance tires lasted much longer than these then you definitely have a quarrel with someone about that.
Good point. Thanks for your input.
 

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BMW Fever
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I had the same issue with my old (94k to 240k RIP) 2000 540i E39 rear tires AFTER overhauling the suspension (including front struts but not rear shocks) and getting a proper alignment more than once. Since the rear shocks were so difficult and THREE different shops said they were ok, I avoided replacing until I ripped through the third set of expensive shoes with less than 10k! After replacing the rear shocks (they were toast but felt just fine), the rear tires lasted as long as the manufacturer claimed, matching the wear on the fronts. If you've already overhauled the suspension, IMHO, you need to replace the struts and shocks before you get longer life out of ANY new tires. Just my 2-cents. GL and please keep us posted. :cool:
 

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My current Michelin Pilotsport A/S 3, 245/45R18 100Y XL tires are going to get 15k miles not the 45K advertised. Ride good but handling was awful. If your highway was slightly uneven/rutted, it would try to oversteer to next lane.
I’m considering Pirelli P Zero AS plus or Goodyear Eagle Exhilerate. Michelin is marketing Pilotsport A/S 4 but I’m apprehensive about handling and tread life.
Look at Continental “extreme contact” pro tires. MOE) for Mercedes. After months of research for my 650I I am getting a smooth ride, good traction and performs well in the rain. which when compared to what I had is huge (Bridgestone Turanza) RF were shot (rear tires) after 6,000 miles and we’re hard as nails. Tires are still classified as RF although they have winter drive AS characteristics. Not just a summer tire. Since my tires are offset tread ware warranty is cut 50%. Normally 60,000. So far very happy. Before I decided I strongly considered Michelins as I have them on all my cars the past twenty years. So happy with these tires so far
 

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I've gone through 18 high-performance Michelins and 12 high-performance Continentals. The Michelins wear even with less pressure than the Continentals. That means that the I can have even wear and a comfortable ride with the Michelins.

Michelins are very sensitive to pressure. It's possible to accelerate the wear in the middle of the tread with just slightly higher pressure. That's almost impossible to do with Continentals or Goodyears.

BMW selects tire pressures based on ride quality more than on even tread wear. With Michelins, I've learned to make the front pressures roughly equal to the BMW-recommended rear pressure. The wear data for my 535i (Post #10) was with the front pressure at 38 PSI and the rear pressure at 40 PSI. The BMW-recommended pressures are 35 PSI front and 39 PSI rear. I still ended up with more average side wear in the front (0.04/32") and more middle wear in the rear (0.16/32").

The high-performance Michelins come round-shouldered, with deeper tread in the middle. My PS 4S's came with roughly 8.5/32" of depth in the inner and outer channels, and roughly 9.5/32" of depth in the two middle channels. So, some over pressurization causing slightly more wear in the middle can actually extend the life of the tires.
 

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Nuclear engineer
02/2012 X5 35d M57Y CPO 121K miles NOKIAN WR G3 30K miles
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23,970 Posts
Here in Naples we have … high heat factor that probably shorten the life of our tires.
No. Tire compounds operate in the flat Rubber Region between Tg freezing to brittle glass transition temperature and Tm melting temperature. Tire compounds are selected for expected environmental conditions (except the ones that putz’s buy that shatter at water freezing temperature).
 

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Not so fast, Uncle Dougie.

Those Firestone tire failures on Ford Explorers happened more often in high-temperature areas.

My Michelin PSS's had cracks in the inner circumferential channels after 30 months and less than 30k miles. The only plausible explanation was exposure to cold temperatures.

Here's a GM bulletin about summer tires cracking at temperatures below 20F.

13-03-10-001D 1..3 (nhtsa.gov)
 

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Nuclear engineer
02/2012 X5 35d M57Y CPO 121K miles NOKIAN WR G3 30K miles
Joined
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23,970 Posts
Not so fast, Uncle Dougie.

Those Firestone tire failures on Ford Explorers happened more often in high-temperature areas.

My Michelin PSS's had cracks in the inner circumferential channels after 30 months and less than 30k miles. The only plausible explanation was exposure to cold temperatures.

Here's a GM bulletin about summer tires cracking at temperatures below 20F.

13-03-10-001D 1..3 (nhtsa.gov)
Dietrich Bonhoeffer, Letters and Papers from Prison, Prologue After Ten Years. A Reckoning made at New Year 1943.

Of Folly
Folly is a more dangerous enemy to the good than [is] evil. One can protest against evil; it can be unmasked and, if need be, prevented by force. Evil always carries the seeds of its own destruction, as it makes people, at the least, uncomfortable. Against folly we have no defense. Neither protests nor force can touch it; reasoning is no use; facts that contradict personal prejudices can simply be disbelieved - indeed, the fool can counter by criticizing them, and if they are undeniable, they can just be pushed aside as trivial exceptions. So the fool, as distinct from the scoundrel, is completely self-satisfied; in fact, he can easily become dangerous, as it does not take much to make him aggressive. A fool must therefore be treated more cautiously than a scoundrel; we shall never again try to convince a fool by reason, for it is both useless and dangerous.
 

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Dietrich Bonhoeffer, Letters and Papers from Prison, Prologue After Ten Years. A Reckoning made at New Year 1943.

Of Folly
Folly is a more dangerous enemy to the good than [is] evil. One can protest against evil; it can be unmasked and, if need be, prevented by force. Evil always carries the seeds of its own destruction, as it makes people, at the least, uncomfortable. Against folly we have no defense. Neither protests nor force can touch it; reasoning is no use; facts that contradict personal prejudices can simply be disbelieved - indeed, the fool can counter by criticizing them, and if they are undeniable, they can just be pushed aside as trivial exceptions. So the fool, as distinct from the scoundrel, is completely self-satisfied; in fact, he can easily become dangerous, as it does not take much to make him aggressive. A fool must therefore be treated more cautiously than a scoundrel; we shall never again try to convince a fool by reason, for it is both useless and dangerous.
Forehead Nose Eyebrow Muscle Jaw
 
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