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If you know anyone affected by all of the IT layoffs, please forward this to them...and check this site...while it still exists...(and all of the links...they are quite interesting...get pro-active on the petition...politicians notice stuff like that...and check Sun Microsystem's class- action suit.
http://www.zazona.com/ShameH1B/

 > Here's the story of a US CITIZEN, a highly skilled
> technical worker. Read it and take action TODAY.
> Tomorrow it could be you. The future of your
> children is in jeopardy, if you do not act today
> they will have none.
> ==================================================
>
> Where Did All The Jobs Go? - The H-1B Situation
>
> I am a software engineer currently looking for work. My
> job skills are current. In fact, I filed a patent at my last
> employer. I have submitted hundreds of resumes for
> various positions. I have only had a few job interviews.
> However, those interviews were quite informative. For
> example, on a recent interview, I immediately noticed
> that the software managers and engineers were from other
> countries. This appears to be the situation at all the
> companies I have recently interviewed with.
>
> I was aware that Congress had recently doubled the
> number of H-1B visas for skilled foreign workers. In fact,
> 1,000,000 H-1B workers will be employed in the U.S. by
> the end of 2002. That's right - one million people. That's a
> lot of jobs especially since unemployment is at record
> highs.
>
> What is the H-1B program? If you don't know about it,
> you better learn about it quickly because it may be the
> reason you don't have a job. "The H-1B non-immigrant
> program is a voluntary program that allows employers to
> temporarily import and employ non-immigrants admitted
> under H-1B visas to fill specialized jobs not filled by U.S.
> workers."
> http://www.dol.gov/dol/eta/public/regs/fedreg/final/2000122001.htm
>
> Each company hiring an H-1B employee is required to
> file a Labor Condition Application (LCA). An LCA is an
> application filed by a company that wants to hire a
> foreign national to fill a position within the United States.
> With this in mind, I wanted to determine how many
> engineering positions were filled by H-1B engineers at a
> given company. Since this should be public information, I
> went to my trusty search engine looking for a LCA
> database. For some reason, it does not appear that the INS
> ( http://www.ins.gov) or other government web sites
> provide a LCA database. However, I finally found a web
> site which has a LCA database at
> http://www.zazona.com
>
> The database link is at
> http://www.zazona.com/LCA-Data
> Their advanced database search is very helpful. For
> example in the advanced search, select the state as
> California, enter a city as Santa Clara, enter the employer
> name as Hewlett Packard and enter number of records as
> 50 then press the submit query button. You can see the
> positions and salaries of the H-1B employees. Looking at
> the data, we are not talking about a few dozen positions.
> We are talking about literally hundreds of positions. This
> is only for the HP offices in Santa Clara. Go back and do
> the above search but leave the enter a city blank. You will
> see that Hewlett Packard employs hundreds and hundreds
> of H-1B workers. Moreover, we are not only losing
> engineering jobs but H-1B visas are being granted for
> almost any conceivable position. Just look at the LCA
> database to see what types of jobs are being denied to
> U.S. citizens.
>
> This appears to be the only site with a LCA database so I
> wondered who created the site. There is an interesting
> article about its creator at
> http://www.sacbee.com/content/opinion/story/1094647p-1159082c.html
>
> With the current economic conditions, many large firms
> have instigated massive layoffs. Many engineers have
> been unable to find work for months. As mentioned
> above, the H-1B program allows employers to
> temporarily import and employ non U.S. citizens to fill
> specialized jobs not filled by U.S. workers. Go back and
> look at the list of jobs filled at Hewlett Packard by H-1B
> employees. I personally know of many individuals who
> are qualified for those positions but are unable to find
> work. Something is seriously wrong.
>
> I've been told by many permanent and contract hiring
> agencies that companies now prefer to hire H-1B workers
> and work them long hours at lower wages - knowing they
> won't say anything fearing they would lose their H-1B
> status. At my last firm, the engineering manager had his
> engineers working many weekends. When one of the H-
> 1B engineers complained, he said that there were plenty
> of engineers in Taiwan that wanted his place. I have
> heard other engineers say that managers like to threaten
> H-1B engineers with losing their H-1B status unless they
> do exactly what they are told. I've also heard and
> personally noticed that many companies are hiring H-1B
> managers with the expressed purpose of having them fill
> engineering positions with H-1B engineers from their
> respective country. Many companies are finding this an
> inexpensive way to lower costs as discussed in a recent
> USA Today article titled "Tech Firms' Hiring Practices
> Ignore Idle Americans"
> http://www.usatoday.com/usatonline/20011205/3673849s.htm
> Dr. Norman Matloff, professor of computer science at the
> University of California at Davis, also supports these
> findings.
> http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/itaa.html
>
> Someone wrote me to ask "Why do US citizens deserve
> the jobs more than H-1B workers?" Well, think about it.
> If tomorrow, 1,000,000 technical jobs in say New Delhi
> were suddenly replaced by American workers, the Indian
> government would be very upset. The problem is the
> sheer number of people since one million H-1B workers
> will be employed in the U.S. by the end of 2002. There
> needs to be a more balanced system in which everyone
> comes out ahead. Countries need to provide the
> infrastructure for their own engineers to develop
> businesses and find employment at home. Globalization
> should mean that software projects are jointly developed
> between countries rather than having everyone move
> here. The myth is that the U.S. has unlimited space but
> just look at the traffic congestion in most U.S. cities.
> What was initially a reasonable idea has grown into a
> monster of unreasonable size.
>
> Another person wrote me to say "If economics is the
> corporate motivation, isn't it more effective to take the
> entire division offshore? You don't need any H1-B visas
> for that." You have to remember there is a good reason
> that everyone is coming here rather than starting
> companies in other countries. The infrastructure of roads,
> legal systems, communications and schools does not exist
> in most countries. This infrastructure exists because U.S.
> taxpayers have been paying for it over many years. If
> companies had to build a similar infrastructure offshore,
> the cost would be prohibitive for them. The H1-Bs use
> our schools, roads, etc. but have not had to pay taxes over
> many years for their construction. Hence, citizens paid
> for the schools and roads which companies use for H1-Bs
> to replace citizens. So companies and H1-Bs get a free
> lunch. I am not saying we should not have any H-1Bs, the
> problem is that we are talking about hundreds of
> thousands of H-1Bs. This is having a major impact on the
> technical labor market.
>
> The U.S. is one of the few countries which now offers
> unlimited access to its job market at the expense of its
> own citizens. While going to college, if I had any idea
> that most of the engineering positions would be taken by
> H-1B labor, I would never have become an engineer. I
> advise young people not to become involved in
> engineering since companies find it easier to hire less
> expensive H-1B labor. The H-1B managers prefer to hire
> more H-1B labor - it's only human nature - so you have a
> vicious cycle. The end result is that U.S. citizens need not
> apply. This is the situation for the majority of companies
> in my area.
>
> The other issue is that U.S. engineering firms are no
> longer hiring African and Hispanic Americans. I've
> noticed that many firms with H-1B managers have no
> African and Hispanic Americans on their staff. We need
> to hire minority Americans at home before we run off and
> hire everyone from elsewhere.
>
> I believe with the current economic conditions the H-1B
> issue will become a very important topic in the coming
> months. Frankly, the media and press have not discussed
> the seriousness of this subject. Why? I believe they did
> not have the tools and databases required to see the size
> of the problem. Fortunately, the LCA data is now
> available at ( http://www.zazona.com). You can now
> determine how many and what type of jobs are being
> denied to unemployed U.S. citizens at a given company
> and location.
>
> The H-1B law says it is to "temporarily import and
> employ ... specialized jobs not filled by U.S. workers".
> Thus, the law was intended for "temporary" rather than
> permanent labor. The law was clearly not intended to
> deny U.S. citizens jobs but this is precisely what it is
> doing during this difficult economic time. What needs to
> be done to correct this grievous situation?
>
> Congress needs to enforce the law by requiring
> companies to provide immediate employment to qualified
> unemployed U.S. citizens if an H-1B employee is filling a
> position a citizen is qualified for. When a company has
> layoffs, Congress should force companies to obey the law
> by discharging H-1B employees before U.S. citizens. It's
> the law. Whether Congress enforces the law is another
> matter.
>
> It is ironic that the same corporations displaying football
> field size American flags are the worse offenders. They
> are making the technology sector as dependent upon
> foreign labor as we are dependent upon foreign oil.
> Because of their lust for profits, our government,
> banking, financial and technology systems are now
> heavily in the hands of non citizens. Companies are using
> the system to their own advantage while pitting U.S.
> employees against H-1B employees and cruelly hurting
> both.
>
> If the current H-1B situation is not immediately changed,
> U.S. citizens will abandon the engineering field. Think
> about it. You just lost your job and go to the LCA
> database to learn that 25 H-1B employees are still
> working in your position. You will not be a happy
> camper. What can you do to help?
>
> Email this article to all your friends.
>
> Encourage them to look at the LCA database.
> http://www.zazona.com/LCA-Data/
> The job they are losing may be on the list.
>
> Sign the petition. You will find a petition to send to your
> congressional representatives at
> http://www.zazona.com/H1BPetition/P/petition.html
>
> Your most powerful action is to write your U.S.
> Congressperson and Senators. Remember, H-1B
> employees cannot vote but as a U.S. citizen, your vote
> counts. Even though powerful companies have heavily
> contributed to your congressional leaders to keep the H-
> 1B laws in place, companies cannot vote - only you can.
> Don't let your job be eliminated next.
>
> You can find your congressional representative at these
> links.
> Your Congressperson
> http://www.house.gov/writerep/
> Your Senators
> http://www.senate.gov/contacting/index_by_state.cfm
>
> Don't forget to both email and make a phone call to your
> local Congressperson.
>
> Write the business and political editors of your local
> newspaper.
>
> The following academic articles should be of interest:
>
> Dr. Norman Matloff is a professor of computer science at
> the
> University of California at Davis
> http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/itaa.html
>
> August 5, 1999 Testimony of Gene A. Nelson, Ph.D.
> http://www.house.gov/judiciary/nels0805.htm
>
> Thank you for your support.
>
> Unemployed Engineer
 

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Discussion Starter #2
I might add, Boeing is currently offloading most all their IT and IS jobs to India and Russia as I speak :(
 

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You know how I feel about this, luckily my career field is not in jeopardy, to do my job, you have to have an FCC license, I can pretty much write my own ticket, that is not to say I make tons of money, it is just easy to foind a job.
 

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Ripsnort said:
I might add, Boeing is currently offloading most all their IT and IS jobs to India and Russia as I speak :(

that scares me ..how long before one of these people puts something in the code of a navigation system ? or sells some of this technology to a rouge state?:tsk:
 

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Ashe said:



that scares me ..how long before one of these people puts something in the code of a navigation system ? or sells some of this technology to a rouge state?:tsk:
You will have to figure out when this process started, year wise.
Then subtract that year, from 2002

Then you will have the number of years this has been going on.

The government is afraid to tell the people how many people they have fired and arrested with terrorist ties or fake identification, working on flight lines
 

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You know, I'm fairly connected with the high tech industry and I have to say that this article is FULL OF IT.

I know friends who are on H1 visas that are not in the IT field. In fact, I know more people who are not in the IT field that are on H1 visas than people who are in IT that are on H1s.

The few friends in the technology sector that has H1 visas were all treated with the utmost respect, since they're all well educated and speak almost flawless english, and know exactly where their rights are. In fact, one of them was recently promoted to a managerial position, and the company has sponsored him to get a permanent residence card (green card). He is now married and thinking of applying for U.S. citizenship in a few years when he qualifies.

In fact, it is such a hassle to get employees on H1 visas that most companies who are looking for IT staff usually look to outsource overseas like Boeing. One of the casualties of the .com layoffs from my old company, our old IT director at Sameday, started her own company of outsourcing to Turkey, Russia, England, and India and happens to be one of the few people after the Sameday fiasco to be prospering.

People over-react in today's economy and social climate. Can't find a job in IT because those jobs are being outsourced? Tough, learn a new skill and join the work force, or take a job with a pay-cut, or move to a city where your skills are wanted. The companies that are outsourcing their work are the same companies that drives our economy and the same companies that used to pay for your lavish lifestyle...Don't blame the corporations, they need to survive too by cutting cost. Find a way to solve your own problems rather than tying up our government with this beaurocratic crap.
 

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The stuff that goes on in this country amazes me. :tsk: How can we crap on our own people like that? The H1B's have been cargo-dropped into the Minneapolis area for quite a while now. Target Corp (Target, Marshall Fields, and Mervyns) is one of the biggest local offenders.

I gotta figure out how to get rich, and go live somewhere else. Anywhere else.
 

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Good point hack, but isnt the bottom line, American jobs, should go to Americans, if they are equally qualified.?

If I am not right, then I would quickly be sued if I were a CEO.

I recognize an American as anyone legally in the US, with permanent citizenship. My wife immigrated from Laos during the war, did all the proper paperwork etc.. was a full US citizen social security card and all. That is what I consider an american.
 

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Hack, if you lost your job, and had a really tough time getting a new one because companies were filling those positions with people from other countries (that take most of the money they make and send it home-overseas) would you still feel the same way?
 

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Wahhh! :cry: Boo-hoo! :bawling: Them dern feriners' are takin' our jobs again.

If this is happening on such a broad scale, maybe tech guys shouldn't be paid so much that it makes sense for companies to resort to such devious tactics. :confused: Why isn't this a huge problem for people working in other fields?

It's called a downturn in the tech field. Deal with it.

Anyway, immigration laws are already being tightened after 9/11.
 

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PhilH said:
Wahhh! :cry: Boo-hoo! :bawling: Them dern feriners' are takin' our jobs again.

If this is happening on such a broad scale, maybe tech guys shouldn't be paid so much that it makes sense for companies to resort to such devious tactics. :confused: Why isn't this a huge problem for people working in other fields?

It's called a downturn in the tech field. Deal with it.

Anyway, immigration laws are already being tightened after 9/11.
I think mature constructive posts are alot better received than posts that contain waahhh and boohoo. You obviously have never had to walk the street looking for a job when a equally or less qualified foriegner took the slot.

PS you mispelld a couple words.
 

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PhilH said:
Wahhh! :cry: Boo-hoo! :bawling: Them dern feriners' are takin' our jobs again.

If this is happening on such a broad scale, maybe tech guys shouldn't be paid so much that it makes sense for companies to resort to such devious tactics. :confused: Why isn't this a huge problem for people working in other fields?

It's called a downturn in the tech field. Deal with it.

Anyway, immigration laws are already being tightened after 9/11.
Indeed. FWIW, retaining someone on an H1B visa is not a trivial commitment for the hiring company. You are required to make a commitment to that individual and there are monetary costs. We (I am an internal IT consultant for a relatively large insurance company) have done it a couple of times, but our preference is to retain job candidates who are already in the country or for which an H1B visa is not required.

If the above letter was written by an actual person, as opposed to someone seeking to promote an agenda via an Internet myth, then it's the economy, stupid.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Re: Along with every other sector

EugieBaange said:
Very few items in this country say "Made in USA"
You ready to abolish unions?
The union jobs here are all gone too, Boeing offloaded all of its tooling to non-union subcontractors, the Union wage is too high to be competitive...can you say "Cut your balls off with your own greed"? I knew you could.
 

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PhilH said:


If this is happening on such a broad scale, maybe tech guys shouldn't be paid so much that it makes sense for companies to resort to such devious tactics.

You can thank the large consulting firms for that. Companies should do more hiring of independent contractors, who charge far less money than consulting firms for the same quality work. I used to bill at $125-150/hour for my last company, which is insane. Once I left to go independent, I billed far less, and still took home more money from each paycheck. Everyone's happy.
 

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dredmo said:
Good point hack, but isnt the bottom line, American jobs, should go to Americans, if they are equally qualified.?

If I am not right, then I would quickly be sued if I were a CEO.

I recognize an American as anyone legally in the US, with permanent citizenship. My wife immigrated from Laos during the war, did all the proper paperwork etc.. was a full US citizen social security card and all. That is what I consider an american.
Bottom line is, if I'm a CEO and I KNOW that my company's operating budget is WAY over our revenue flow, this would be the first place I look to cut cost. And if going outside of the country and outsourcing it would mean I can keep the company afloat...I may not like it, but I have to do it.

You'd make a horrible CEO, 'mo.
 

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The HACK said:


Bottom line is, if I'm a CEO and I KNOW that my company's operating budget is WAY over our revenue flow, this would be the first place I look to cut cost. And if going outside of the country and outsourcing it would mean I can keep the company afloat...I may not like it, but I have to do it.

You'd make a horrible CEO, 'mo.
I suppose I really would then, I would hire a legal citizen over a foreigner anyday if equally qualified. But I totally believe in capitalism, and I know the job of a CEO is to make money, and not to be patriotic, I just dont like it. And FWIW, I agree the letter is extreme bellyaching. But, it does have valid points. I find it hard to come to terms with the fact, CEO would condone hiring an iraqi over the american, if the qualifications were equal.
 

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ff said:
Hack, if you lost your job, and had a really tough time getting a new one because companies were filling those positions with people from other countries (that take most of the money they make and send it home-overseas) would you still feel the same way?
Yes.

Don't forget, I was laid off twice last year...And my position was filled with people that are far less qualified than I am because they're CHEAPER. To me there was no difference in bottom line, the companies needed to do what they did to cut cost and continue operations. I had no problem with that.

I was out of a steady job for more than 6 months last year. Overall the entire graphic design industry is making 30% less than what they were about 2-3 years ago, and my paycheck suffers as well. But that's just part of the economic downturn, companies are forced to cut back on marketing budget, in turn impacting designers like myself. I know if I can weather this storm, in a few years I will be commanding the salary I deserve again.
 

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Sour grapes now. Where were you guys when the increase of H-1B slots was debated in Congress? Did you send your congressperson an opinion about it? I certainly did not see any public outrage.


Oh, yeah, I know where we were, smoking the high of the high tech bubble. If my memory serves me right, all the high tech companies were screaming that there were not enough qualified workers. No one local worker at those companies complained. They were all dreaming of becoming bosses with the proceeds of their inflated stocks.

Now that the bubble has bursted, use the foreigner as a scapegoat.
 
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