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Freedom isn't free!!
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BMWs are the Ultimate Driving Machines......:thumbup:

Why don't they do what the Japanese do and steal their competitors' best practices? :dunno:

I'm talking about all the "little" things that the Japanese do so well that make their cars so trouble free - power windows, electronics in general, engine cooling systems, make their (BMW's) engine components (water pumps, alternators, etc) and suspensions more durable, reducing NVH (noise/vibration/harshness) i.e. annoying little squeaks and rattes, etc. And why does BMW paint their interior plastic trim instead of making the plastic in the color they need. I've never seen another car that does that.

I'm kinda thinking they (German engineers) are so focused on the Ultimate Drive, down deep they don't really think those other things are really important. But, it's been proven it can be done and it seems it would be so easy.

Just imagine how stupid crazy we'd all be about BMWs if they were the Ultimate Driving Machines that didn't have little sniggling issues along with them!!! :D

Whachy'all think?
 

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I'm sure BMW does benchmark other manufacturer's cars, but the issues you mentioned are generally quality control issues, not design issues. Designs are easier to copy/mimick, but quality is much harder to determine the root cause.
 

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It is all about understanding your customer and their requirements.

We covered a lot of this when I was in school.

When people by a Honda, their number one request is reliability. Not so the case with BMW or Mercedes.

Why doesn't BMW change? Because people are buying what they are producing.

You must admit, if BMW was that bad, you would not be on this forum, you would be off driving something else.
 

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tturedraider said:
BMWs are the Ultimate Driving Machines......:thumbup:

Why don't they do what the Japanese do and steal their competitors' best practices? :dunno:
Great question! One reason for the reliability of Japanese cars may be the historically close relationship they have with suppliers. I think the term for it is Kareitsu. The companies have (or had at one time) interlocking relationships. I understand that the kareitsu have diminished in importance lately.

Another issue: Does BMW really have the capital to invest in quality like Honda and Toyota. Or have they decided that their capital should be invested in performance and the other things that we like so much in these cars? Any industrial economists out there care to chime in?
 

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Rsavory said:
Great question! One reason for the reliability of Japanese cars may be the historically close relationship they have with suppliers. I think the term for it is Kareitsu. The companies have (or had at one time) interlocking relationships. I understand that the kareitsu have diminished in importance lately.

Another issue: Does BMW really have the capital to invest in quality like Honda and Toyota. Or have they decided that their capital should be invested in performance and the other things that we like so much in these cars? Any industrial economists out there care to chime in?
The Japanese technology is the same stuff they have been repackaging for years. The body style and interior may change but they are still pushing vtech and wishbone, etc. It is reliable because they make few changes
 

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chuck92103 said:
It is all about understanding your customer and their requirements.

We covered a lot of this when I was in school.

When people by a Honda, their number one request is reliability. Not so the case with BMW or Mercedes.

Why doesn't BMW change? Because people are buying what they are producing.

You must admit, if BMW was that bad, you would not be on this forum, you would be off driving something else.
Everytime I drive my Integra I wonder if my BMW will be as much fun to drive when it's 11 years old. It's not just reliability, it's durability. Frankly, so many BMW parts (thrust arm bushings, clutches, window regulators, radiators...to name a few) just dont last long, and it's not that they are unreliable, they just arent durable. When you have to worry about parts wearing out, a car stops being enjoyable to own and drive. That's why I still enjoy my Integra but I doubt I'll enjoy my E39 in 2014.
 

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LA525iT said:
Everytime I drive my Integra I wonder if my BMW will be as much fun to drive when it's 11 years old. It's not just reliability, it's durability. Frankly, so many BMW parts (thrust arm bushings, clutches, window regulators, radiators...to name a few) just dont last long, and it's not that they are unreliable, they just arent durable. When you have to worry about parts wearing out, a car stops being enjoyable to own and drive. That's why I still enjoy my Integra but I doubt I'll enjoy my E39 in 2014.
Don't kid yourself, not too many old Integras, Corrollas, Accords, etc on the road. They fall part too.

I see more old BMW's and Mercedes than I do the old Acura Legend. The car fell completely apart. I know, I had one.
 

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chuck92103 said:
Don't kid yourself, not too many old Integras, Corrollas, Accords, etc on the road. They fall part too.

I see more old BMW's and Mercedes than I do the old Acura Legend. The car fell completely apart. I know, I had one.
Well, my first car (92 Civic) is still in the family and drives great. My Integra is still on original clutch, never had an alignment or an ounce of electrical work. Car tracks straight as an arrow and the A/C pumps like no one's business.

Some people know how to drive and maintain their cars for the long term.
 

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Chuck, please, vtech is a phone. Why the fan-boi bashing on venerable Japanese cars?

VTEC is honda's variable valve technology and you are dead wrong about just "repackaging" it. For instance when the Integra platform became the RSX they improved it in the K20 engine to include variable overlap timing and intake runner length. This was a big step beyond even the awesome F20 motor in their S2000.

Wishbones? The suspension changed dramatically from the Integra to the RSX, though not everyone agree it was a "good thing."

Got any other Honda misconceptions I can help clear up?

To the OP, car designs are always a compromise. I have to believe there are BMW engineers examining every competitor's car. BMW does have a history of being different for the sake of being different. Maybe that makes them slower to mimic others.
 

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Trust me, your BMW will last for at least ten years....

Older BMW's seem to keep going.. and going.. and going..

Just get them serviced and change the oil and you won't have any major problems.

I believe BMW does have the ability to reach Japanese "quality", in my mind they have always been better. Look at any Japanese car, big ugly buttons and plastic parts, radios and displays with garish readouts at least a foot high. Stepping in to one of these cars makes me feel that the designers thought I was retarded..

BMW has a level of refinement that is far beyond this. The car just feels solid..
 

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Jalli said:
.

I believe BMW does have the ability to reach Japanese "quality", in my mind they have always been better. Look at any Japanese car, big ugly buttons and plastic parts, radios and displays with garish readouts at least a foot high. Stepping in to one of these cars makes me feel that the designers thought I was retarded..

BMW has a level of refinement that is far beyond this. The car just feels solid..
:thumbup: The innovation by BMW is also far beyond.
 

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On the same token, ask a Ferrari or Lambo guy how much time his car spends at the shop. It's all relative.

Honda builds transportation. My first two new cars were Acura Integras, '89 and '91. When I drove a friend's '87 325iC in '93 I was educated on the difference between transportation and driving machine within one block of the parking lot we departed from.

I know someone with an Acura CL-S who's on his third transmission in 100k miles. His brake rotors are "warped", according to the tech, and while it was under warranty coverage, they refused to repair them again because they claimed he was driving the car too hard. I had the same problem with my Integras after taking them into the mountains for some spirited driving. None of my BMWs have ever complained about any treatment I give them, in fact, they encourage me to drive them harder.

I think discussing Honda reliability and BMW performance in the same context is hard to do. Could you bring your stock RSX to the track and have it be the same car at the end of the weekend? I doubt it. When my car was new, pre-mods, I did it and it made the transistion from street machine to track machine and back without issue. It still does.

For the sake of argument, lets say we're all 25 and single. Would you stay with a boring girl just cuz she's reliable and low maintenance, or would you rather have a flakey porn star who could suck a golf ball thru a garden hose? Hmmmm?
 

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OK since i work at a lexus dealership i have to tell you ...THEIR POWER WINDOWS FAIL JUST AS MUCH AS EVERY OTHER CAR COMPANIES...we get o6s in with windows failed...honestly even the techs tell me its common...other than that i see them taken apart for weird noises....i have seen new trans put in ...engines...ect....they arent as trouble free as people think ...BUT lexus seriouly kisses the customers butt....they all but roll out the red carpet...i am nto saying they are a POS ...i am just saying they have their share of issues..
 

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one guy wanted lemon law his GS due to the noises...stupid guy ..but honestly i have seen a lot of new sunroofs in cause of noise....payed for by lexus...if it rattles they will fix it lol or try too :)
 

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Pursuitof325i said:
OK since i work at a lexus dealership i have to tell you ...THEIR POWER WINDOWS FAIL JUST AS MUCH AS EVERY OTHER CAR COMPANIES...we get o6s in with windows failed...honestly even the techs tell me its common...other than that i see them taken apart for weird noises....i have seen new trans put in ...engines...ect....they arent as trouble free as people think ...BUT lexus seriouly kisses the customers butt....they all but roll out the red carpet...i am nto saying they are a POS ...i am just saying they have their share of issues..
I am sure Lexus does have their share of issues but not as nearly as much as other car manufacturers.... Just look at numerous reliability ratings all over the web, car magazines, etc. etc. Why do you think Lexus/toyota are number one in reliability?
 

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Penforhire said:
Why the fan-boi bashing on venerable Japanese cars?
I agree with the fan-boi bashings, but you have realize we are in a BMW enthusiast forum so any negative talk about BMWs will lure in all the BMW fanbois like a pack of wolves staring at a dead carcuss in dead of winter!

I don't think there will ever be a opened minded forum where people lust over their choice of car make regardless of any problems.
 

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Kzang said:
I am sure Lexus does have their share of issues but not as nearly as much as other car manufacturers.... Just look at numerous reliability ratings all over the web, car magazines, etc. etc. Why do you think Lexus/toyota are number one in reliability?
The reality is the difference between being number one and let's say number 8 is not much.

Lexus has 1 defect per 100 vehicles. BMW and many other brands have two defects per 100 vehicles.

There are a least 5 car brands that are as good as Lexus/Toyota. However someone has to be #1. But in this day and age, being 5th, 10th, etc. ain't bad either.
 

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chuck92103 said:
The reality is the difference between being number one and let's say number 8 is not much.

Lexus has 1 defect per 100 vehicles. BMW and many other brands have two defects per 100 vehicles.

There are a least 5 car brands that are as good as Lexus/Toyota. However someone has to be #1. But in this day and age, being 5th, 10th, etc. ain't bad either.
No. It's one defect per vehicle, on average, for Lexus -- or was. But, hey, guess who's at the top now? Hyundai!

Anybody want to say Rodney King?
 

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Malibubimmer said:
No. It's one defect per vehicle, on average, for Lexus -- or was. But, hey, guess who's at the top now? Hyundai!

Anybody want to say Rodney King?
Really Mal, 1 per vehicle? You may be right. I do remember a lot of cars were at 1 or 2 issues per 100, but it could have been on each car.
 
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